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Just curious, is it possible to adjust the throttle linkage so that the gas pedal is farther from the floor? On mine it tends to get mushed into the floor when passing, etc., hindering acceleration. I think it may be too close to the floor but not sure how it’s supposed to be
Last edited by sgolds; July 6th, 2021 at 10:09 AM.
I’m not sure if the Toro throttle switch is the same as the big cars from that year, but if memory serves they are very close. There should be some posts under my username with relevant details about the switch pitch/kickdown switch.
Adjusting these is a little tricky. I can confirm that pedal height (relative to the cabin floor) is controlled by the rear vertical rod on the front side of the firewall. The tricky thing is Olds made 2 versions of this rod - adjustable and non-adjustable. If you have the fixed one, well, it’s fixed. The fallback in that case, if you have an adjustable engine block rod (not the throttle rod - the shorter one closer to the driver’s fender) then you can adjust that shorter to push the driver’s pedal upward.
If you have the adjustable rear rod, you can shorten or lengthen it a few turns and see if you like that setting better. But be aware that this also influences both the switch pitch setting & also the kickdown when you move the starting point up or down.
If you have the time, your best bet is to unhook the whole assembly from the firewall & engine, then get it close to correctly set on the bench. “Correctly” here means that the high stator angle for the switch pitch activates and stays on for just a few degrees of pedal travel, then turns off, then turns on again. Correctly also means that just before the carb is completely open your kickdown switch turns on to kick the transmission down. The carb fully open setting will need to be done with the assembly on the car.
If you need more, happy to help. This will take a few hours to get it just right
Chris
There's a roller on the pedal rod inside the car. The pedal rides on it. Check that it's in place, they've been known to fall off after 55 years.🙂 Also make sure pedal travel isn't obstructed by floor mat or carpet.
If the downshift and switch pitch are functioning I wouldn't mess with throttle linkage much, otherwise you'll have to go thru the CSM adjustment procedure.
I've been playing with '66 throttle switches lately and you piqued my interest. I've never had a '66 Toro, but I've see a ton in boneyards. I thought they had a lot in common with the big cars on this throttle control system, but maybe not.
Heres the first '66 Chassis Service Manual Diagram which clearly shows the Littlefuse fixed switch pitch / kickdown controller: Did Olds use the Littlefuse fixed kickdown / switch-pitch converter switch in '66 Toros? Chassis Service Manual says Yes. The mounting bracket is different for the Toro, but it's the same switch we find in 65-66 big cars.
I can affirm that Olds used the square switch on '66 and maybe '65 big cars for the switch pitch and kickdown functions. My Starfire came with one and I've had it 23 years. So it would seem Olds reused a good component.
Yet on the very next page in Chapter 16 of the Chassis Service Manual, there is a diagram that looks very close to your setup, which makes no reference to kickdown or switch pitches at all. 1966 Olds Chassis Service Manual diagram of a Toronado Throttle Cable & Rod design. So, where's the kickdown?
Since I'm no Toro expert, this diagram leaves me with a bit of a mystery you'll need Toro experts to solve. By my read it is not clear what Olds did for the kickdown function on '66 Toros, nor the switch pitch function which seems to have been something they were promoting that year.
Toro people, what say ye?
Hope the diagrams help diagnose your problem
Chris
Is that round thingy that says “switch assembly” the kick down? Maybe a different design earlier?
That's exactly what it is. The cable operates the carb from the pedal. The rod runs from the carb to that switch, which is mounted to the back of the engine with a bracket. It is not part of the accelerator pivot the way it is on RWD cars. And to answer the OP's question, there's no adjustment in the cable linkage. Either something is worn or the metal lever under the pedal is bent.
I had the same issue on my 68 and found it to be the linkage bracket that attaches to the left rear carb bolt was moving forward (clockwise).
Make sure that the bracket is not worn or bent or that the carb bolt is tight. from your pictures it appears to be tilted a bit clockwise.
I had the same issue on my 68 and found it to be the linkage bracket that attaches to the left rear carb bolt was moving forward (clockwise).
Make sure that the bracket is not worn or bent or that the carb bolt is tight. from your pictures it appears to be tilted a bit clockwise.
Thanks I will check that area, this is an aftermarket q jet the prev owner got from Rock Auto, so it might be a bit off
I had the same issue on my 68 and found it to be the linkage bracket that attaches to the left rear carb bolt was moving forward (clockwise).
Make sure that the bracket is not worn or bent or that the carb bolt is tight. from your pictures it appears to be tilted a bit clockwise.
do you have a pic of that bracket in the correct position?
that car is long gone but I would just make sure that the bracket is at a 90 degree from the carb.
I just checked my 70 GT and could move said that bracket about 20 degrees. My 442 on the other hand has a roll pin in the carb that stakes the bracket in place. The Gt appears to be missing that roll pin. if you want to pm me your phone or email I will send some pics to you. might be easier than uploading them to this site.
I had the same issue on my 68 and found it to be the linkage bracket that attaches to the left rear carb bolt was moving forward (clockwise).
Make sure that the bracket is not worn or bent or that the carb bolt is tight. from your pictures it appears to be tilted a bit clockwise.
Here is a closeup pic (don’t know why it’s sideways), if I loosen the bolt and turn the bracket counter clockwise, that should move the gas pedal, correct?
the gas pedal will probably not move but by adjusting the bracket counter clockwise you effectively lengthen the throttle cables range of travel.
Have someone mash the pedal to the floor then you move the bracket ccw and see how much more your butterflies open.
Mine would not allow the 4 barrel to open until I adjusted it.
the gas pedal will probably not move but by adjusting the bracket counter clockwise you effectively lengthen the throttle cables range of travel.
Have someone mash the pedal to the floor then you move the bracket ccw and see how much more your butterflies open.
Mine would not allow the 4 barrel to open until I adjusted it.
Hmmm interesting I don’t think my secondaries are working either
Hmmm interesting I don’t think my secondaries are working either
If you are saying that because you don't see the secondary air valves open when you rev the motor in PARK, you won't see them open. Those are not the secondary throttle blades. The air valves only open under load.
Joe’s right on. When I adjusted my switches over the past few weeks here was my process
1) Push the Quadrajet accelerator roll pin (driver’s side) out and release the acceleration pump lever. This keeps you from shooting gas in as you experiment with throttle rods, cables, carb and switch adjustments.
2) Turn the car key to the accessory or “Run” position. This provides power to the kickdown switch if things are working. Don’t turn on the ignition. Engine should be off.
3) Have an assistant slowly put the acceleration pedal through its travel while you watch the kickdown/switch pitch switch at the back of the block. That’s the switch thingy. As it goes from high stator angle at idle to low stator angle when you just touch the throttle you’ll hear a “click” with the engine off. Then another click as it comes back on about 40% of the way into the throttle. Then a final “click” as it triggers the transmission kickdown.
4) If you have no assistant, disconnect the throttle return spring so you can manually run the throttle rod across it’s degrees of travel without it snapping back to idle as designed. _Be_Sure to reconnect this spring when you’re done adjusting
5) When the throttle rod is pulled back as close to the firewall as it can go, your carburetor secondary blades (not the air door - the lower ones) should be just about 90 degrees (I.e. vertical) or completely open. If this doesn’t happen, adjust the two levers on the drivers side of the qjet primary throttle blades. The front one controls when the secondaries cut in. If you bend it rearward, it will open the secondaries earlier. The rear lever controls how far open the secondaries get. To get it to open further, bend the primary rear rod forward a bit to create more interference and cause the secondaries to open more completely.
7) Reconnect the throttle spring to be sure the carburetor butterflies close when you take your foot off the gas
8) Reattach the pump accelerator arm and nudge the roll pin back in place to make it lever acceleration fuel properly once again.
Sorry I don’t have pictures today, see Doug Roe’s book or Cliff Ruggles book for getting qjets to work right. If I remember correctly, they describe this process better than I have here.
Forgot a big thing — use a pair of pliers or big screw driver to prop open the upper secondary air doors so you can see the lowers going to vertical due to mechanical action from the gas pedal.
Casual glance is that it looks better to me, but the question is how it drives. Does the gas pedal feel about right in total travel, resistance and switching functions? Does the car feel more or less powerful when you stomp on the gas?
Its funny how small changes in the geometry here make a big difference in pedal feel and switch functions. I'm not that good at geometry, but if I were I could have saved some trial & error time understanding the differing radii of carb opening degrees and switch pitch on/off degrees.
The Toro throttle system is an interesting hybrid between old Rod-based system and later cable based throttle. Along the way I'd heard that the Toro was a test bed for the front wheel drive system so that the Cadillac brand wouldn't suffer if it didn't work well. I wonder if this is another part of those engineering field tests?
It looks like the cable connects the gas pedal to the carburetor primaries to reflect driver demand, then the outer rod actuates the kickdown & switch pitch functions. I would have expected Olds to just reuse the big car system. But maybe by 1965 GM was already seeing injuries from stuck cable rods so they took the toro as an opportunity to test throttle cables vs. rods.
If I've got that right, the first thing I'd do is be sure that when your gas pedal is on the floor be sure that the secondaries are ll the way open. If you see the horizontal steel rod on the carb that connects the primaries and secondaries in your 1st photo above, have an assistant put the pedal down to floor and observe whether the spring-loaded secondaries lever is lying almost horizontal. If so, when you floor it, the carb is opening all the way. If not, you'll need to bend a couple of the levers on the _primaries_ to get them to interfere with one another a bit more and force the secondaries all the way open.
Once you've got the cable opening the carb all the way, then the question is whether the switch pitch function and kick down functions are working as designed. I think I did this before but suddenly there are a few switch threads. The idea there is that high stator angle (car power on, power to the orange wire) is on with the throttle at idle. If it's right, when the throttle is at rest (aka idle) the switch pitch terminal with a test light should be ON. Next just off throttle the test light should go OFF for 30 or 40 degrees of throttle opening, then back ON again. Finally when the throttle is nearly wide open, hook the test light to the kickdown terminal and if it lights up you're golden.
If some of these functions fail, you can clean, disassemble and repair the switch or see if you can get a replacement. Inside the switch are brass contacts which rub on each other every time you move the throttle, so you can imagine they may have worn down or out over the years. See my repair thread if you need some tips on fixing yours.
It looks like the cable connects the gas pedal to the carburetor primaries to reflect driver demand, then the outer rod actuates the kickdown & switch pitch functions. I would have expected Olds to just reuse the big car system. But maybe by 1965 GM was already seeing injuries from stuck cable rods so they took the toro as an opportunity to test throttle cables vs. rods.
That's possible, but I suspect the real reason for the cable is the fact that the engine is offset to the passenger side to clear the transaxle. The accelerator linkage in the 66-67 full size cars is pretty much in line with the carb lever. On the Toro there would be a pretty significant jog to the right to line up, which can cause binding. Testing out the new cable technology is a possibility, but I suspect the offset problem was also a consideration.
That's possible, but I suspect the real reason for the cable is the fact that the engine is offset to the passenger side to clear the transaxle. The accelerator linkage in the 66-67 full size cars is pretty much in line with the carb lever. On the Toro there would be a pretty significant jog to the right to line up, which can cause binding. Testing out the new cable technology is a possibility, but I suspect the offset problem was also a consideration.
is that why the throttle rod has a bend in it? I thought it was bent out of shape, but that offset thing makes sense now
is that why the throttle rod has a bend in it? I thought it was bent out of shape, but that offset thing makes sense now
The "throttle rod" is not actually a throttle rod, it's the rod that operates the kickdown switch from the carb. The force required is much less than for the linkage from the accelerator to the carb, and the kink was to align with the switch, which is mounted above the bellhousing, not on the firewall.
Went out for a test ride, wow sure gained a lot of acceleration, but also ended up with a too fast idle speed. The drum brakes could barely handle all that creep and fast idle! I'm assuming if I lower the idle speed it won't lose acceleration? The gas pedal also moved up nicely as well 😎
By adjusting the cable, you’re putting rearward force on the primary throttle blades. So the engine idles faster.
Your foot-off-the-gas goal here is no rearward force on the primary throttle blades at idle, but instant movement the moment you touch the gas. Just to put out there, in this state the test light for the switch pitch function should be “On” at this point.
You may find that to get the carb to open fully and idle slowly that you need to bend those secondary opening arms since you can’t really adjust the closed movement of the throttle cable to allow a lower idle. Put another way, since you can’t “stretch” the throttle cable to allow slower idle, you may need to have the secondaries open sooner - with fewer inches of throttle cable movement.
You’re solidly into the game of adjusting the radial geometry of the carb from proper idle to fully open and having the pedal start/end where you want it to. The throttle cable translates rotation of the gas pedal into rotation of the carb butterflies.
When I play with mine, my goals are 1) no rearward gas pedal force at idle, 2) carb fully open when floored, and 3) let the pedal sit where it may. I put those in order since I sometimes have to sacrifice in one dimension to get the others correct.
Changing secondary butterflies opening point as you have seen has a pleasant effect on power, it won’t surprise you to learn that it may have the opposite effect on economy.
But then who drives an Olds big block for economical gas mileage?
Okay, after a few weeks it looks like it rotated back to the original spot. Is there some way other than tightening the bolt that I can keep it in one place? Is that what the drill bit was for in the previous pic?
If it were mine, I’d position the bracket just where you like it and use a small drill to put a screw or pin-sized hole in the aluminum throttle body (the carb base) at the rear as shown in the pictures above.Then put a small screw or pin to hold the bracket in place as shown above.
Just don’t drill all the way through the carb base. You want the hold just deep enough to hold a securing screw or pin in place. If you wanted to get slightly fancy, tap the hole with the right threads using a tap & die kit.
From what I can see, the factory knew about the bracket movement problem and a locating pin was their answer.
It looks like your carb base might not have provision for the locating pin, so I’d suggest just putting one in.
may or may not be a hole in the throttle plate. I would just square up the bracket, punch the hole, remove the bracket, drill it out and install a roll pin or something similar and replace the bracket. ,***Make sure your tranny kickdown linkage is correct before you drill out the throttle plate.****
July 6th, 2021, 09:51 AM
