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I REALLY hate relays..
and this car is a REAL stinker..
Can find reference to this..as the relays are ALL OVER the car..
2 problems..
1. Radio is removed and the Antenna WONT TURN OFF.. I had to go in and Clip the wires in the wheel panel.
2. There are 3 relays(?) 2 I have found for the Radiator fan system..
Fans wont turn on.
Checked the radiator Sensor, works..
Checked BOTH relays I found inside engine compartment Behind Drivers side headlight..
Traced the Sensor (single line) to the interface on the Firewall to the cab..DO I REALLY HAVE TO TAKE the whole Dash apart..?? Iv got all kinds of boxes, connections, relays on the drivers side..
I used a TONE sensor to find the wiring...but cant reach under the Dash section to keep tracking, and NONE of the lines I have scanned, send a TONE..
REad a few manuals, and I HOPE its not part of the A/C..as I have disabled it as Fully DEAD..
All the electrical in a 86, you definitly need a wire diagram.
Iv seen a few diagrams, and its a Spaghetti map...If I could lay it all out FLAT, I could see abit..
I need to know the location..more then anything..not just what it connects to, as MOSt of the relays are the same..
Dont know if its a computer type relay, Old Old style, or what..
The travel length is abit stupid/weird.. Being ODB1, it should need to measure temp, and its not going to the computer under the Coil block.
I hate them complicating things when they DONT NEED TO BE..
What do you mean by your antenna won't turn off? I assume it's a power antenna. Is the motor continuously activating since you've removed the radio?
If your fans don't turn on you need to check for 12V at the fan when the engine is warm. If you have 12V at the fan and the fan isn't running then the fan is bad. If you don't have 12V then you need to trace the wire back to the relay and see if there is 12V at the relay.
Make sure your multi meter is set for 12V DC when checking the fan. If you set it to continuity check with a tone then you would be checking the wiring between the relay and the fan for an open.
BTW, I definitely suggest getting a wiring diagram. It's essential when doing this kind of work. I use a pencil or screwdriver when tracing wires on a diagram and I do this for a living as an FAA electronics tech.
The stock power antenna uses limit switches inside the motor housing that turn the motor off when the mast reaches the full up or full down position. If the motor keeps running, it's because the plastic rod inside the mast has broken (the common failure mode), preventing the mast from actuating the limit switch. This is NOT a relay problem, but you can disable the antenna by unplugging the relay that should be located in or under the inner fender near the antenna.
As for relays in general, you need to chill. A relay is a dirt-simple remote-controlled switch. There's no magic.
What do you mean by your antenna won't turn off? I assume it's a power antenna. Is the motor continuously activating since you've removed the radio?
If your fans don't turn on you need to check for 12V at the fan when the engine is warm. If you have 12V at the fan and the fan isn't running then the fan is bad. If you don't have 12V then you need to trace the wire back to the relay and see if there is 12V at the relay.
Make sure your multi meter is set for 12V DC when checking the fan. If you set it to continuity check with a tone then you would be checking the wiring between the relay and the fan for an open.
BTW, I definitely suggest getting a wiring diagram. It's essential when doing this kind of work. I use a pencil or screwdriver when tracing wires on a diagram and I do this for a living as an FAA electronics tech.
The fans work, Both 1 fan ON, and 2 Fan on WORK..
I wonder if you know what a Tone generator is..in Non-powered lines you set a tone on the line and another device to track it anywhere it goes.. very nice and simple.. They call them hunter/seeker for a reason..also can work on shorts..as it will track until the WIRE break, then stop tone..
I learned about these in Phone repair. They are used in tons of wiring and testing.
The stock power antenna uses limit switches inside the motor housing that turn the motor off when the mast reaches the full up or full down position. If the motor keeps running, it's because the plastic rod inside the mast has broken (the common failure mode), preventing the mast from actuating the limit switch. This is NOT a relay problem, but you can disable the antenna by unplugging the relay that should be located in or under the inner fender near the antenna.
As for relays in general, you need to chill. A relay is a dirt-simple remote-controlled switch. There's no magic.
I understand this..I am chill..and a diagram will tell me a PART, but will not tell me a location.
It would tell me this ISNT a relay. that its part of the ODB1 system, with a switch inside, or a temp monitoring unit, rather then a relay..
Yes, Im old enough to know abit about the old ways cars worked and grew up watching the old and NEW change over.. Iv found 3 different types of relays..mostly 1 type.
And they are all over the car..passenger side, Drivers side, Under the hood, and dash..
Yes the Antenna was broken and not UP or DOWN.. but the relay should of shut it off, as the radio was removed. The diagrams I saw Show, that it was supposed to be under dash on passenger side, in a Block of connections..Bottom right..it wasnt there. Had to be a relay as it would go Down after the ignition was powered off..
I WILL NOT tolerate a troll. I was trying to help. If you are dumbfounded by a 1986 Oldsmobile and can't figure heads or tails from the wiring diagram then I'm sorry. There really isn't a simpler tool for electrical diagnosis than a multimeter.
Yes the Antenna was broken and not UP or DOWN.. but the relay should of shut it off, as the radio was removed. The diagrams I saw Show, that it was supposed to be under dash on passenger side, in a Block of connections..Bottom right..it wasnt there. Had to be a relay as it would go Down after the ignition was powered off..
Anymore info would be nice..
If you study a factory Chassis Service Manual, it will both show you the locations of items and also how the power antenna is wired. The antenna relay is a latching relay that holds power in the DOWN position once the radio is turned off (or physically removed). Power remains ON until the antenna trips the internal limit switch. This is done so that the antenna continues to power all the way down even if you turn off the ignition. Once again, your problem is NOT the relay - that part is operating exactly as it is supposed to. The problem is the broken antenna mast. This is a VERY common failure mode with this antenna design.
Rather than complain about "relays", you might want to study the CSM and figure out how the system really works. It's all spelled out there.
I wonder if you know what a Tone generator is..in Non-powered lines you set a tone on the line and another device to track it anywhere it goes.. very nice and simple.. They call them hunter/seeker for a reason..also can work on shorts..as it will track until the WIRE break, then stop tone..
I learned about these in Phone repair. They are used in tons of wiring and testing.
I think the ones responding know what a tone generator is. However some circuits will carry a connection until a load is applied.
As far as a wire break, that is not a short but an open. A short is a connection between 2 different circuits or a circuit and a ground.
These guys are only trying to educate and help.
OK...please take no offence..
IF I HAD THE CSM...do you think I would read it???
Draw out the map of the Circuit?
KNOW the relay and What it looks like to tell the difference over 200 other wires/connections/and other stuff sitting there??
CSM costs over $100..
What I find online, is only the Basic TXT stuff, and Wiring diagram.. And in all of it...its NOT the 1986, its the 87, and the 85 and This and That..
For the radio relay..
I want to locate it for 1 interesting reason...a RELAY can still be WORKING even when the Other side ISNT.. Since the OFF trigger is in the ANTENNA, not the relay..Withoput the ANTENNA, it can still be ON..
ps. the last time I had to get this deep into a car was my 1966 AMC Rambler.. But I know how relays work and HOW they can work..Iv worked enough alarm systems and computers...to give me abit of knowledge..AND those are not buried under my dash..
Last edited by ECA; October 26th, 2016 at 05:32 PM.
Location: I moved to pittsburgh so I can be near Primantis
Posts: 405
if you have no radio, then clip the power wire to the antenna. since its broken internally you have to replace it anyways.
as for any relays, if you have doubts test the relay first, the 80's gm stuff they used were not sealed and they would corrode and stay off cooling fan relays were the biggest offenders. pins 85/86 for american applications are the coil. 30 is the power source, and 87/87b are the driven loads. apply 12v across the coils and listen for the click, you might even feel it.
a for the fan controls, simple ones use 12v to pin 85 and pin 86 goes to a temp sender that goes to ground when hot (no ac in car)
on ac car where the fan (lo) may be commanded on ac demand, the ecm sinks pin 86
if you have no radio, then clip the power wire to the antenna. since its broken internally you have to replace it anyways.
as for any relays, if you have doubts test the relay first, the 80's gm stuff they used were not sealed and they would corrode and stay off cooling fan relays were the biggest offenders. pins 85/86 for american applications are the coil. 30 is the power source, and 87/87b are the driven loads. apply 12v across the coils and listen for the click, you might even feel it.
a for the fan controls, simple ones use 12v to pin 85 and pin 86 goes to a temp sender that goes to ground when hot (no ac in car)
on ac car where the fan (lo) may be commanded on ac demand, the ecm sinks pin 86
Yes, I cut the wires to the antenna..at the antenna..
And yes, Im tracking the temp sensor..and you suggest its part of the AC switches inside??
So the temp sensor Goes Ground, and the signal tells the system to Turn on 1 fan, and IF' the AC is on, also..it turns BOTH fans on..
Gives me something to search for..
My problem is that I Grounded the other relays, for 1 fan and 2 fan..and they work. But the fans dont come on, when needed. So it has to be a 3rd relay..or temp guage..
IF I HAD THE CSM...do you think I would read it???
Draw out the map of the Circuit?
KNOW the relay and What it looks like to tell the difference over 200 other wires/connections/and other stuff sitting there??
80s cars are electric nightmares, more so with big luxury models and lots of options.
Trouble shooting is a slow process, methodical, and impossible without refering to a diagram. There are just too many variables to just start replacing componants, and visually you cannot see how all works together. Learning how to follow and read a wiring diagram is the only way to visualize it. I have used magnifying glass, sometimes making a blown up copy and a highliter to follow a circuit. I don't know for sure, but I do not believe the 80 models used a body control modual like the newer cars, just lots of wiring and relays.
The reality is that the GM power antenna design and circuit has been unchanged from the late 1970s through at least the mid-1990s. The NC terminals of the relay are wired to provide power to the antenna motor in the DOWN direction. The relay itself is not energized with the radio OFF or missing. The down limit switch in the motor is what turns the motor off once the mast comes down. Simply disconnecting the two wire connector to the motor solves this problem without resorting to cutting any wires. Sorry, but I've had to fix far to many electrical problems caused by people randomly cutting wires.
Attached are excerpts from a 1981 Toro manual. The 1986 D88 wiring is the same, however the color codes are likely different.
Yep..Im going to need those manuals..time for my CC..
See. there is something they could of done with the antenna..
NORMAL DOWN..if there is no power it would Lower itself..
A small amount of power to the antenna would have sent it up and Held it..would of been a cleaner wiring..
Or on the GROUND side of the radio..a small relay to send power UP..other wise it drops down..
I think the history should read like this:
AFTEr the floods in the central USA...
When all the Insurance agencies and Car dealers are done...many cars end up being CLEANED UP, after being totaled, and then resold AGAIN..
Bought this car from HURTZ..$1200 about 12 years ago. GOOD car.
I amaze people that it Still gets 30+MPG for a heavy car..(freeway)
well, I had this hidden STINK..with a new car COVER smell..
but I had the idea of where it had been.
After it sitting awhile, driving another car.. decided toi check it out and fix a few things..
I knew the Float system was OUT, as well as the radio..
And Found strange Rewire..radio and cig lighter..
Car had problem and decided to clean fUEL TANK.. AS car would almost start then no fuel pressure..
Looked at Fuel lines and replaced lines, after testing..the wiring contacts INSIDE contacts were Rotten..
Then found the 1 Fuse that controls TO MUCH..Fuse 16. controls most of my external lights, Radio, this that and the Antenna..Pulled it out and replaced..and fun started..
Get the car running, and find out engine is getting pretty hot, Why arnt fans running??
Looking around net I find Tons of diagrams and wiring setups, and None Exactly what I wanted..Close but Not Quite..but I saw SOME info on early and later cars, showing Some of the info.
Saw that there were 3 relays for Radiator fans..(HATE wiring harnesses sometimes) and slowly track down where 2 of them are..Hidden under plastic cover in corner, with the Hydraulic Air system. 4 relays and 2 are the fans..Hi/Low...NOW to find the other..How many ways can a relay for HEAT/Fans be set up.. took awhile to find the Path the Heat sensor took(they hid the harness, not easy to see)..
Started talking to you folks as couldnt find the points I was looking for..
Got a few suggestions, and thoughts.. (I really dont like Ebay)
My main thought now, is that Somone that TRIED to save pennies on wiring, use MORE then they needed..
I will see about those books, and take the info with me..
PS, when I bought this car, it had Less then 120,000 on it..
Location: I moved to pittsburgh so I can be near Primantis
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by ECA
My problem is that I Grounded the other relays, for 1 fan and 2 fan..and they work. But the fans dont come on, when needed. So it has to be a 3rd relay..or temp guage..
Ok lets start with this one since this can cause you to explode or not to explode, and keep in mind, I dont have the wiring SCM in front of me. when you say you grounded them, you tested them and found the relay click, and click they did, but still no fan spin.
ok, test 1: make sure the relay clicks then test for continuity between 30 and 87. if yes, then the relay is fully good.
Next, is there power at pin 30 with Key on? if no - find out why, if yes, apply power to the socket for pin 87. Does fan turn on? no, then unplug fan, test that wire for continuity, if yes, then apply power directly to the fan using some sort of jumper wire and does the fan ever come on? if no - fan bad (it can happen)
you said 86, d car, 3800 first gen, AC, you have 2 fans, one should come on with AC demand (AC demand is only set if the AC system is in fact working. is it? otherwise, gotta heat her up. The passive cooling system on the buick drivetrain is purty good so it might take a while.
I have two H Body cars, a Buick and an Oldsmobile, but the badge is really irrelevant.
Wiring is simple as an anvil compared to later cars, i can't add anything more to how to check your issues.
But they were continuously modified as they were built, a CSM is as essential for these as much as any other car for serious repair and maintenance work, and you can get them for cheap, were you quoted $100 at a dealership?. However you may well find that what is in the manual isn't exactly what you find in your particular car.
This is where common sense and a clear head come in. If you find you are banging your head on a wall just quit, go have coffee, walk the dog or whatever. When you go back often you find is was a simple wiring color change or location of a part that had you climbing the walls.
If you bought a flood damaged car you might need to refer to the manual quite often.
See. there is something they could of done with the antenna..
NORMAL DOWN..if there is no power it would Lower itself..
Kinda hard for the motor to run to lower the antenna WITHOUT any power...
With the radio off (or disconnected), power to the relay coil is removed. The relay is a DPDT and the normally closed contacts provide power to the antenna motor DOWN windings. Once the mast reaches the full down position, the limit switch interrupts power to the motor. Pretty simple if you ask me. Of course, with the mast broken, the limit switch never opens, thus your problem.
Location: I moved to pittsburgh so I can be near Primantis
Posts: 405
Ps: I did have the 1986 CSM at carlisle and it sold for $4, so $100 is extreme and unlikely.
And agree with rusty roger and add this, if the car WAS flood damaged, I GUARANTEE the relays are all damaged, including fuel pump prime so god knows how its running...
Ok lets start with this one since this can cause you to explode or not to explode, and keep in mind, I dont have the wiring SCM in front of me. when you say you grounded them, you tested them and found the relay click, and click they did, but still no fan spin.
ok, test 1: make sure the relay clicks then test for continuity between 30 and 87. if yes, then the relay is fully good.
Next, is there power at pin 30 with Key on? if no - find out why, if yes, apply power to the socket for pin 87. Does fan turn on? no, then unplug fan, test that wire for continuity, if yes, then apply power directly to the fan using some sort of jumper wire and does the fan ever come on? if no - fan bad (it can happen)
you said 86, d car, 3800 first gen, AC, you have 2 fans, one should come on with AC demand (AC demand is only set if the AC system is in fact working. is it? otherwise, gotta heat her up. The passive cooling system on the buick drivetrain is purty good so it might take a while.
Grounded the relay while engine was ON, and Fans worked..Both relays work, when engine is on..
But its been wet, and still not looked for the relay from the Temp sensor..
You really just don't like to listen to advice, do you. As Eric and others have noted, a ten second search on ebay yields the exact same set for a whopping $10.
Ok, you never said you paid that much for one.
But you gave the impression that you thought it was the only show in town,
People here are genuinely offering well intentioned help, and if you stick around on this forum you will find they are goldmines of sound practical advice.
There are guys here who build cars for the track and strip, restore old models to their former glory, or just keep older cars running properly and tell us what they found when things went wrong and how they fixed it.
Play nice, we don't know your level of expertise, nobody is trying to put you down, we simply are trying to help.
October 25th, 2016, 02:39 PM
