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I plan on tearing down this trans over the next few months. I will be working 6 days a week and probably 12 hour days for the next month, coming shortly. Every Spring and Fall, I love Farmers🤨. Any incite on guys who have built these transmissions, please chime in. The good part, even if some of internals show questionable wear, I have to two more cores to potentially build or gather parts from. This trans worked fine except for slow engagement into forward gears, when cold especially. The other core outside only has 1, 2 and reverse. The third works perfectly and looked like a possible recent rebuild, still in my 70S. Moving carts work great to prop up a trans for disassembly. I remember my old boss using a garbage can with vice grips to change an o ring on a trans pump. Also a list of the necessary tools to do one of these trans is helpful. I know a bushing driver should be on that list. I have the big CK manual, plan on brushing up on it over the next few months.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Apr 10, 2021 at 01:13 PM.
I just built one a couple of months ago. Get the hardened stator shaft, direct drum and shaft, and the "rollerized" kit from CKPerformance. The plastic thrust washers will not live long behind that motor. It was a failed thrust washer that killed mine, and that was behind a VIN Y 307!. Also, stock up on the selective washers or you'll be stuck waiting for them to come.
It’s been several years since I was last in one of these transmissions, so I’m a little rusty. The low/reverse clutch housing is a pain in the *** to remove or install without the fancy tool. I do remember the first one I built without the tool I had trouble with the spacer falling out of the housing when I tried to set it in the trans. I figured out a method to do without the tool I assembled the housing, set the stamped steel spacer in the housing, then packed the entire assembly in Vasoline and put it in the freezer. The frozen vasoline held the spacer in position.
I used a old transmission yoke and some scrap angle iron to make a tool to hold the output shaft in position. I’m pretty sure the process is in the CK manual.
I think the later models used bearings in a few critical places instead of thrust washers. I do know the sun shell was heat treated starting around 85 model year
In addition to Joe’s recommendations, either a Grand National or aftermarket servo will be needed. A wide band, and a CK valve body kit, a hardened forward clutch housing and maybe some governor modifications should be included.
Thanks Matt, all those are planned. I have a deep pan already and the 2350 flash stall converter is probably close enough. I also modified and staked the small spring on the governor for 5000+ rpm shifts. I may actually have time to finish this before the motor is done, a big back log at the machine shop.
I'll be honest, I used the CK book, the CSM, and the ATSG book. Each of the three leaves out key info and diagrams, but all three together fill in the holes. You can get a PDF of the ATSG manual here.
I’m curious, what did you find lacking with any of the 3 books mentioned? I don’t have the ATSG book, so I can’t comment on that. I do think the CK method of setting the rear gearset endplay is so much easier (not to mention no need for the Kent Moore tools).
I’m curious, what did you find lacking with any of the 3 books mentioned? I don’t have the ATSG book, so I can’t comment on that. I do think the CK method of setting the rear gearset endplay is so much easier (not to mention no need for the Kent Moore tools).
It was more in gaining the overall picture of how the trans goes together and works. The ATSG book has better overall diagrams. The CKP book is focused on close up photos of individual parts and you can easily lose the forest for the trees. I naturally didn't rebuild mine in the order in the CKP book, since I had to wait on parts. I also do have a complete set of the Kent Moore tools, and it really does make it MUCH easier. I set the rear endplay using the CKP method, but I double checked it with the KM tools. I ended up putting in a different selective washer.
The pump is the key....and the billet forward drum. Send lonnie at extreme automatics your pump, buy his forward drum, buy his frictions, and put in a sonnax servo. CK shift kit. Pretty much done.
The pump is the key....and the billet forward drum. Send lonnie at extreme automatics your pump, buy his forward drum, buy his frictions, and put in a sonnax servo. CK shift kit. Pretty much done.
I'm going to take the dissenting opinion here. The number of vanes in the pump doesn't make a "better" pump, necessarily. The only advantage of going from 7 to 10 to 13 vanes is that you smooth out the pulses in the flow. You can change the boost valve in any of them. Machining more slots in the pump rotor for the extra vanes can actually weaken the rotor, so it isn't clear that's "better". The big pump upgrade that's mandatory is the hardened stator shaft, but you can replace just the shaft pretty easily when you have the pump apart. For any normal street-driven application, I doubt you'll fell or see any difference in going from 7 to 10 to 13 vanes.
Replacing the plastic thrust washers with roller bearings is mandatory for anything stronger than a stock 307. With the OP's projected 400-450 HP, that's mandatory.
Let's not kid ourselves here. Most of the internal parts of the 200-4R are common with those in the TH200C three speed. They were never designed to handle that much HP and torque. Just lift a 200-4R vs a TH400 and the light-duty nature of the trans becomes obvious. Spend the money, buy the quality upgrade parts.
I have never heard a good explanation of why Hydromatic went from a proven, perfected 10 vane pump to a 13.
Joe hit the nail on the head with the 7 vs 10 vane upgrade. If you look at the vane pockets of a 10 vane pump rotor, you will notice all the vanes are equally spaced apart, except for one. What happens is the pressure regulator valve cycles in relation to the pump pulses, creating the “buzz” some of the early 200R4 and 700 transmissions had. The uneven pump vane breaks up the rhythm. The pulsing has long been a suspected cause of the pump rings breaking on the early models. It has ZERO influence on pump pressure or volume.
The hardened stator support is pretty easy to change once the pump is apart.
As for the direct clutch, the hot setup use to be installing thinner clutches as steels to fit more clutches in the drum. While that helps with overall torque capacity, the problem is the thinner clutch/steel doesn’t dissipate heat nearly as well. It’s better to dual feed the clutch with a good shift kit.
I am seriously considering buying CK's rebuilt 10 vane pump. I have changed the stator tube before and been in the pump. I have changed rings and added a 13 vane pump because I had it. I also ran into the issue of not enough pressure even with a .500" boost valve, thinking it was a clearance or slide spring issue. A .555" boost valve brought the line pressure to an acceptable level. I don't want that pandora's box on top of the entire rebuild. I will see what the fancy tools are running for this trans. I will start tracking down them or at least the tools in the CK manual. Too bad Dr Dan was chased off here, being one of the experts on this transmission.
The tools I found most necessary are the output shaft holder (J-29332), lo-rev clutch housing tool (J-28542), center support tools (J-29334), and direct/fwd drum tool (J-29337). None of these are absolutely mandatory, but they really make life much easier. The trans holding fixture also really makes life much easier. And while we're on this kick, the pump puller and the turbine shaft seal ring installer tools help a lot. I've got all those and a number of others, including all the specific bushing replacement tools. When all the GM dealerships closed a decade ago, all these KM tools were on ebay for peanuts, so I grabbed them.
Thanks Joe. Time to start searching EBay, I will get the rest of the part numbers off you as well. I have the rest of the year to get this trans rebuilt. So basic tear down, tools, parts and assembly by next spring.
No matter the build. A billet input shaft and billet forward drum are MANDATORY. Otherwise, it's a time bomb and it will eventually fail even on a mild 400HP build.
Makes his own bands - from 4L60E. Interesting. Might be cheaper to order one from Lonnie. Like I posted above. I've used CK's pumps and Lonnies Pumps which I sent them to rebuild and/or cores. CK has a 10 vane with his .550/.300 boost valves. Lonnie's is a 7 vane with a .500/.367 boost valves. Taken both apart. The one I am doing now is nearly 100% parts from Lonnie. I've not seen first hand what Lonnie does for the accumulators. I know CK as I have had his apart. Good times to see another 2004r getting a new life. Not easy to find cores and/or any of the performance valve bodies. Wonder with all the LS conversions these valve bodies/transmissions would available like all the Non-LS motors I see for sale now.
I am lucky enough to have three 2004R's and can probably find more. I worked as an apprentice with a 20 year Ford tech have a 50/50 run when doing their transmissions. There can be all sort of frustrating issues doing them. I will check out Lonnie's pumps and parts as well. Wouldn't the 10 vane with larger boost valves produce higher line pressure? Has there been any 10 vane failures? I know the 13 vane pump is very controversial. Supposedly the 13 vane rotors have broken and that is why many don't run them.
The Buick GNX in reality probably was producing more power than its ratings, and around 380hp/450 lb/ft tq. And most Olds will not produce that much more. The higher the pressures, the harder the parts, and the bigger the bands may be more than needed, and hammer the parts needlessly shortening its life.
The Buick GNX in reality probably was producing more power than its ratings, and around 380hp/450 lb/ft tq. And most Olds will not produce that much more. The higher the pressures, the harder the parts, and the bigger the bands may be more than needed, and hammer the parts needlessly shortening its life.
And other than the valve body, govenor and servo, there is no difference in the Grand National trans and the one in grandmas Cadillac. The internal parts are identical. It’s all in the calibration of the valve body and related parts.
I am lucky enough to have three 2004R's and can probably find more. I worked as an apprentice with a 20 year Ford tech have a 50/50 run when doing their transmissions. There can be all sort of frustrating issues doing them. I will check out Lonnie's pumps and parts as well. Wouldn't the 10 vane with larger boost valves produce higher line pressure? Has there been any 10 vane failures? I know the 13 vane pump is very controversial. Supposedly the 13 vane rotors have broken and that is why many don't run them.
Zero benefit in a 13 vane pump. The 10 vane only benefit is better durability, there is zero improvement in pump pressure and volume.
Transgo markets a number of products under their "NoYoYo" brand, meaning that they are supposed to prevent callbacks at repair shops by fixing a problem the first time. The reverse fix is supposed to prevent a delay in reverse engagement when hot. I can't say that I've ever had that problem with any 200-4R I've owned, though it isn't clear I was ever looking for it, either.
I don’t remember what the steel plate is intended to fix. I have seen those little stamped steel plates in a few 2004R I have taken apart over the years. I don’t recall ever seeing one in the TransGo shift kits, so I’m guessing they included them in the early years and then stopped using them later on.
I don’t recall ever seeing one in the TransGo shift kits, so I’m guessing they included them in the early years and then stopped using them later on.
The NoYoYo products weren't part of the normal trans kits. They were a line similar to the Sonnax products, designed to correct problems that may or may not be real.
This one was probably rebuilt at one point, the other one was not that many years ago. I was told back in the day by my boss and my local wreckers Dad who no doubt selling them, that non performance TH2004R's failed around 130,000 fairly regularly. I was in grade one when this trans came out, so it is only hear say. My Boss mentioned his low mile 86 Monte SS went went over 200,000 Km of hard abuse before selling. It only suffered from the softened 1-2 shift. I told him the calibration difference was why it survived. I will put the plate back on the rebuild, it shouldn't hurt anything and maybe help.
That plate is the entire reverse guppy fix "kit". It just adds a little leverage to keep that corner of the separator plate firmly affixed to the case. You can see that corner between the two bolts is just hanging out, so it's possible fluid pressure would push the separator plate off the case.
That plate is the entire reverse guppy fix "kit". It just adds a little leverage to keep that corner of the separator plate firmly affixed to the case. You can see that corner between the two bolts is just hanging out, so it's possible fluid pressure would push the separator plate off the case.
Yeah, that is exactly what it looks like, a waved gold plate on a plate.
First broken accumulator spring The "Guppy" fix plate
More broken accumulator springs, are they all 2 piece? Center support
Direct clutch assembly The infamous foward clutch housing and shaft. It is pretty lightweight and will be replaced with a billet forward drum and wlded on shaft. Direct drum and clutches Direct clutch drum Intermediate band Intermediate band and pin Front internal planetary gear Front carrier assembly Internal gear/carrier roller bearing assembly Front Sun gear Front Sun drum and rear Sun gear Two of the tools Joe suggested showed up!
The 1-2 accumulator spring on mine was broken exactly the same way. I had a hard time finding a stocker to replace it. The trans I built was for my wife's 85 D88. I didn't want the readily available GN accumulator spring. She's not a fan hard shifts.
