New Idea: Electronic Overdrive 4L60e
December 2nd, 2009, 02:53 AM
#1
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
New Idea: Electronic Overdrive 4L60e
Looking for feedback on an idea...
I recently purchased a 64 Super 88 with the Slim Jim transmission (mine actually came in a blue tub from Wally World) Not knowing any better and not doing enough research before hand, I thought I could just pick up a BOP trans and throw it in there....
Well now that I know what is needed I turned to Ross Racing Engines for info on thier kit. It looks the be the best quality and best engineered idea out of the limited options for automatics.
Now I really would like to have an overdrive transmission for cruising. I know some purists and old school rodders dont like electronics but I think it would be a great idea to have a 4 speed automatic that can have the shift points adjusted to suit the motor and driving style.
With the basic research I found the 4L60e from 98+ (Camaro/Firebird/G10 van/Silverado/Sierra/Tahoe/ ect.) has a modular bell housing. This would mean the factory bell doesnt need to be cut/machined off. You would simply unbolt the factory piece and bolt on the new billet piece.
The one drawback is cost. The controller alone runs about $950 from TCI. There are other vendors out there but cost is about the same. I did find one for around $500 but not sure about specifics. ( http://e-transcontrol.com/products.htm ) Also, the cost of a 4L60e is more then a TH350... A well built 4L60e is $1600 plus core. You can find them cheaper too or have one built locally, maybe for even less. A descent used one should run about $500-$600.
Now this all started when I talked to Tony at Ross Racing Engines and his TH350 swap. He already has most of the components and with a little work I believe he can get the 4L60e to work....
Please excuse my MS Paint drawing but you'll get the idea...
3944L60e.jpg
So how much interest is there to move forward with this idea?
If Tony sees enough interst maybe he would concider setting some time aside from his busy schedule to see if this is possible...
Tony,
Maybe you can chime in here..
I think the flex plate will need different holes to attatch an LS1 style torque converter...
Is the billet flex an off the shelf part of custom machined to your specs?
I know it will be an entirely new bell housing - Can you think of anything else that not electring in nature?
I recently purchased a 64 Super 88 with the Slim Jim transmission (mine actually came in a blue tub from Wally World) Not knowing any better and not doing enough research before hand, I thought I could just pick up a BOP trans and throw it in there....
Well now that I know what is needed I turned to Ross Racing Engines for info on thier kit. It looks the be the best quality and best engineered idea out of the limited options for automatics.
Now I really would like to have an overdrive transmission for cruising. I know some purists and old school rodders dont like electronics but I think it would be a great idea to have a 4 speed automatic that can have the shift points adjusted to suit the motor and driving style.
With the basic research I found the 4L60e from 98+ (Camaro/Firebird/G10 van/Silverado/Sierra/Tahoe/ ect.) has a modular bell housing. This would mean the factory bell doesnt need to be cut/machined off. You would simply unbolt the factory piece and bolt on the new billet piece.
The one drawback is cost. The controller alone runs about $950 from TCI. There are other vendors out there but cost is about the same. I did find one for around $500 but not sure about specifics. ( http://e-transcontrol.com/products.htm ) Also, the cost of a 4L60e is more then a TH350... A well built 4L60e is $1600 plus core. You can find them cheaper too or have one built locally, maybe for even less. A descent used one should run about $500-$600.
Now this all started when I talked to Tony at Ross Racing Engines and his TH350 swap. He already has most of the components and with a little work I believe he can get the 4L60e to work....
Please excuse my MS Paint drawing but you'll get the idea...
3944L60e.jpg
So how much interest is there to move forward with this idea?
If Tony sees enough interst maybe he would concider setting some time aside from his busy schedule to see if this is possible...
Tony,
Maybe you can chime in here..
I think the flex plate will need different holes to attatch an LS1 style torque converter...
Is the billet flex an off the shelf part of custom machined to your specs?
I know it will be an entirely new bell housing - Can you think of anything else that not electring in nature?
Last edited by 64Super88; December 2nd, 2009 at 04:03 AM.
December 2nd, 2009, 03:20 AM
#2
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
OK. I just need to add something. The 4L60e tail doesnt support cable driven speedo. There are two options -
1. Tail housing swap @ $500 http://www.shiftworks.com/instruct/98UP4L60E.pdf
2. Run an electronic speedometer (not always possible/stock appearance)
Now the tail hosung swap is a billet adapter for a TH350 (or similar) housing. Maybe Ross Racing can make an adaper for less as this seems to be expensive...
1. Tail housing swap @ $500 http://www.shiftworks.com/instruct/98UP4L60E.pdf
2. Run an electronic speedometer (not always possible/stock appearance)
Now the tail hosung swap is a billet adapter for a TH350 (or similar) housing. Maybe Ross Racing can make an adaper for less as this seems to be expensive...
Last edited by 64Super88; December 2nd, 2009 at 03:36 AM. Reason: added link
December 2nd, 2009, 06:11 AM
#3
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 16,444
Check out these guys:
http://www.transmissionadapters.com/
http://www.forwhatyouneed.com/tansonp1.html
They are both reputable shops that modify transmissions for early Oldsmobile engines. Perhaps you could get a 700 R4 or 200 4R modified by one of these guys to install in your Oldsmobile. Then you wouldn't have to worry about getting extra machining done.
http://www.transmissionadapters.com/
http://www.forwhatyouneed.com/tansonp1.html
They are both reputable shops that modify transmissions for early Oldsmobile engines. Perhaps you could get a 700 R4 or 200 4R modified by one of these guys to install in your Oldsmobile. Then you wouldn't have to worry about getting extra machining done.
December 2nd, 2009, 08:34 AM
#4
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 48,188
OK. I just need to add something. The 4L60e tail doesnt support cable driven speedo. There are two options -
1. Tail housing swap @ $500 http://www.shiftworks.com/instruct/98UP4L60E.pdf
2. Run an electronic speedometer (not always possible/stock appearance)
1. Tail housing swap @ $500 http://www.shiftworks.com/instruct/98UP4L60E.pdf
2. Run an electronic speedometer (not always possible/stock appearance)
http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm
The problem with your suggested swap, aside from cost, is the fact that there just isn't enough demand to support developing this product. A "billet" bellhousing requires starting with a very large billet of aluminum and throwing most of it away. That's not cheap, especially for the first one.
December 2nd, 2009, 10:09 AM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 67
Wow, Coldwar. Very informative. Me being so young (35), I didn't know they made 4 speed automatic transmissions before the 700R4. Silly me. Now I need to look into this T-400.
My suggestion was going to be a 200R4 until I read COldwar's post by the way. Gotta do some research now.
My suggestion was going to be a 200R4 until I read COldwar's post by the way. Gotta do some research now.
December 2nd, 2009, 12:43 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hudson, WI
Posts: 375
64Super88 You know that you can add a overdrive to a TH400. Go here...
http://www.gearvendors.com/
http://www.gearvendors.com/
December 2nd, 2009, 02:52 PM
#8
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 48,188
The TH-400 is not a four speed auto, even with the switch pitch converter, but the early Hydramatic is. Note that the early trans is not overdrive (fourth is 1:1), but if you elect to use it, just select a rear axle ratio that gives you the same final drive ratio in fourth.
December 2nd, 2009, 04:14 PM
#9
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
OK.
I didn't realize the gear ratio was so numerically low in the car. Since I wasn’t able to drive it (trans in a bucket problem) and know noting about the characteristics of the 394, I assumed an overdrive to be the logical route. I also have a tendency to go right to the latest and greatest... I too am younger then my car … by nine years...
My other old car is a 1967 Chevelle and I will be running a fuel injected LS3 crate engine, T56 6 speed manual trans and a Moser 12 bolt with 3.73 gears. With this combo I can only use 6th gear on the highway because of the final overdrive. Now before the start of the swap I had a 350/TH350 combo with 3.08 gears and the revs seemed a little high at cruising speed.... This is another reason that led me to overdrive.
As far as the factory Slim Jim for the 64, I have only been researching this car and trans for four days. I have found mostly neutral to negative feedback. Two major concerns are the ability of someone local who knows what they are doing and the availability of parts since mine was disassembled prior to me acquiring it.
I found this calculator. Now it has a transfer case box but I just used 1 to 1 so it should be fine…. http://izook.com/gearcalc.htm
After punching in different numbers I realize that small changes to one or two of the factors have a great effect. I have a couple questions:
For the 394 Ultra High Compression engine, what would be a good highway RMP or where would the engine be most efficient and smooth? 2400 2600 2800 3000 etc?
What is the factory gearing for a 1964 Super 88 with the 394?
I didn't realize the gear ratio was so numerically low in the car. Since I wasn’t able to drive it (trans in a bucket problem) and know noting about the characteristics of the 394, I assumed an overdrive to be the logical route. I also have a tendency to go right to the latest and greatest... I too am younger then my car … by nine years...
My other old car is a 1967 Chevelle and I will be running a fuel injected LS3 crate engine, T56 6 speed manual trans and a Moser 12 bolt with 3.73 gears. With this combo I can only use 6th gear on the highway because of the final overdrive. Now before the start of the swap I had a 350/TH350 combo with 3.08 gears and the revs seemed a little high at cruising speed.... This is another reason that led me to overdrive.
As far as the factory Slim Jim for the 64, I have only been researching this car and trans for four days. I have found mostly neutral to negative feedback. Two major concerns are the ability of someone local who knows what they are doing and the availability of parts since mine was disassembled prior to me acquiring it.
I found this calculator. Now it has a transfer case box but I just used 1 to 1 so it should be fine…. http://izook.com/gearcalc.htm
After punching in different numbers I realize that small changes to one or two of the factors have a great effect. I have a couple questions:
For the 394 Ultra High Compression engine, what would be a good highway RMP or where would the engine be most efficient and smooth? 2400 2600 2800 3000 etc?
What is the factory gearing for a 1964 Super 88 with the 394?
December 2nd, 2009, 04:18 PM
#10
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
64Super88 You know that you can add a overdrive to a TH400. Go here...
http://www.gearvendors.com/
http://www.gearvendors.com/
December 2nd, 2009, 04:19 PM
#11
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
Or 3. Use one of these:
http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm
The problem with your suggested swap, aside from cost, is the fact that there just isn't enough demand to support developing this product. A "billet" bellhousing requires starting with a very large billet of aluminum and throwing most of it away. That's not cheap, especially for the first one.
http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm
The problem with your suggested swap, aside from cost, is the fact that there just isn't enough demand to support developing this product. A "billet" bellhousing requires starting with a very large billet of aluminum and throwing most of it away. That's not cheap, especially for the first one.
I kept thinking black box.. count find this before... but I thought it existed... thanks
December 2nd, 2009, 05:58 PM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Slim-Jim
Roto-hydramatic (aka "slim-jim") for full size 1964 Oldsmobiles w/ 394cid
"The larger Model 10 weighed 154 lb and had ratios of 2.93, 1.56, and 1.00. The stator provided a maximum torque multiplication of 1.2:1.
The Roto Hydramatic was cheaper and smoother than the previous Hydramatic, but its slower, softer shifts sacrificed performance. Owners discovered that it was also less durable than the Hydramatic, and was prone to various mechanical problems."
- Wikipedia
"The larger Model 10 weighed 154 lb and had ratios of 2.93, 1.56, and 1.00. The stator provided a maximum torque multiplication of 1.2:1.
The Roto Hydramatic was cheaper and smoother than the previous Hydramatic, but its slower, softer shifts sacrificed performance. Owners discovered that it was also less durable than the Hydramatic, and was prone to various mechanical problems."
- Wikipedia
Last edited by Oldsmobomb; December 2nd, 2009 at 06:10 PM.
December 2nd, 2009, 09:08 PM
#14
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
Roto-hydramatic (aka "slim-jim") for full size 1964 Oldsmobiles w/ 394cid
"The larger Model 10 weighed 154 lb and had ratios of 2.93, 1.56, and 1.00. The stator provided a maximum torque multiplication of 1.2:1.
The Roto Hydramatic was cheaper and smoother than the previous Hydramatic, but its slower, softer shifts sacrificed performance. Owners discovered that it was also less durable than the Hydramatic, and was prone to various mechanical problems."
- Wikipedia
"The larger Model 10 weighed 154 lb and had ratios of 2.93, 1.56, and 1.00. The stator provided a maximum torque multiplication of 1.2:1.
The Roto Hydramatic was cheaper and smoother than the previous Hydramatic, but its slower, softer shifts sacrificed performance. Owners discovered that it was also less durable than the Hydramatic, and was prone to various mechanical problems."
- Wikipedia
December 3rd, 2009, 01:33 PM
#17
Rich from Las Vegas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 48
I found the table that should tell me what my gears are... I just need to get under the car and check it on Saturday.... It lists 8 different gear ratios... http://tech.classicoldsmobile.com/73.shtml
Never owning a big block, what RPM is going to be comfortable on the highway? The lowest possible RPM without lugging then engine?
Never owning a big block, what RPM is going to be comfortable on the highway? The lowest possible RPM without lugging then engine?
December 3rd, 2009, 07:12 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 69
highway rpm
When I had my '68 Firebird 400, it was very happy turning 2500-3000 rpm. Redline was around 5200-5500 rpm. Idle was around 600-800 rpm. I only mention this as general info on big blocks, not as anything specific to the 394cid.
IMO 3000-3500 rpm is pretty 'busy', and below 2000 rpm will probably lug on uphill grades.
IMO 3000-3500 rpm is pretty 'busy', and below 2000 rpm will probably lug on uphill grades.
Last edited by Oldsmobomb; December 3rd, 2009 at 07:16 PM.
December 8th, 2009, 12:00 PM
#19
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: earth
Posts: 288
When I had my '68 Firebird 400, it was very happy turning 2500-3000 rpm. Redline was around 5200-5500 rpm. Idle was around 600-800 rpm. I only mention this as general info on big blocks, not as anything specific to the 394cid.
IMO 3000-3500 rpm is pretty 'busy', and below 2000 rpm will probably lug on uphill grades.
IMO 3000-3500 rpm is pretty 'busy', and below 2000 rpm will probably lug on uphill grades.
One other thing, you may have to work on the tunnel to allow a replacement transmission fit in there.
The 4L60E transmission is computer controlled, and some say the computer is expensive and needs sensors and such to work. In my opinion a simple computer that senses car speed, vacuum, engine speed, engine temperature, along with shift range inputs are all that is needed to make a simple control. $500 is alot more than what I had in mind. I have talked to a few people about this issue and for the most part agree that it doesn't take alot of sensing to make this transmission work.
December 8th, 2009, 12:58 PM
#20
Oldsdruid
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southside Vajenya
Posts: 10,524
On a 1964 big Olds you don't need to worry about a transmission speedometer drive. It drives off the left front wheel.
In all honesty I see more interest in this from old-school hotrodders who want the vintage engine with a modern automatic.
Coldwar and ****** have a lot of experience with the older HydraMatics and if you don't go the 350/375/400 route, I'd go with their recommendations on a Hydro. The big drawback to a Roto is finding someone familiar with them and willing to work on one. They can't be but so bad; Pontiac put them behind 421s in Catalina/GP.
In all honesty I see more interest in this from old-school hotrodders who want the vintage engine with a modern automatic.
Coldwar and ****** have a lot of experience with the older HydraMatics and if you don't go the 350/375/400 route, I'd go with their recommendations on a Hydro. The big drawback to a Roto is finding someone familiar with them and willing to work on one. They can't be but so bad; Pontiac put them behind 421s in Catalina/GP.
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