jag1886

I put a new 200R4 in last fall with with my new engine and the lock up torque converter has been a total PITA to get working anywhere near the way it should.
I installed the kit to make it only work in 4th gear with a toggle switch, what a joke, I added a brake switch so I could bump it off if needed, what a joke, I added a vacuum switch so it would unlock under load, what a joke, I added a B&M Torque converter controller with the brake switch, what a joke, I added the vacuum switch back in with the controller, what a joke.
So Monday I'm driving the car back to the transmission shop and having it converted to a non lockup converter and be done with it once and for all, the car is getting 20MPG with the lock up not working right and I think that is totally acceptable with a 3:90 gear, all I'm concerted with right now is getting total oil flow to the oil cooler when in overdrive.
I get it that some of these home made systems may work OK for you flat landers but they don't work at all in mountainous driving and I'm not taking a chance on burning up my new transmission or lugging the engine to death.
This has been very disappointing experience and very expensive, so I'm just letting people know that you need to consider how you are going to use your car and maybe that wonderful lock up converter isn't what you really need.

CQR

Wow, Sorry to hear. I'm installing my 200 next week. Hope it works out better than yours.

gearheads78

All you say is what a joke. What was it doing or not doing that you don't like?
I am not sure about 2004r but if you run a non lockup converter in a 700r4 the valve body needs to modified to make sure it cools correctly.

jag1886

I would lockup when you didn't want it to, it wouldn't unlock when you needed it to, it would cycle on and of at times which was real annoying, it would cause the engine to almost lug on long grades and would release unless you stand on it and then would lock right back up as soon as it shifted back into OD and start the almost lugging all over again.
It was just to much PITA to deal with.
A 700R4 is easy to deal with because you can get a stand alone computer to just run the transmission.
Thew reason for taking it to the shop is because you have to change the converter and change some valve in the front pump to get full oil flow when in 4TH, the guy that did my transmission has modified a bunch of them and knows what to do.
I only went with the Lock Up because everyone said they worked so great and I could see it working fine if you where on I80 going across Nebraska but I don't get to drive on the flats a whole lot.

jag1886

I see you live in Denver, you could run into the same problems as me, I'd consider talking to your transmission man before installing it, it's a $600 mistake to repair it afterwords, I had to pay labor to have it R&R because I had shoulder surgery a few months ago and can't do it myself right now.
From what I have read the Lock Up in the long run really only saves you you about 1 MPG.

joe_padavano

Not knowing the details of your installation, all I can say is that there are a few MILLION cars with lockup converters on the road that don't have these problems. The early 1980s GM trucks did not use computers, so they are vacuum and brake switch controlled. No problems with those either.

Just sayin'...

jag1886

Good grief not you with the negative vibes again.

rustyroger

Joe is right, you are having issues with your converter, thousands of cars on the road don't (mine included).

I'm sure you can get stand alone software for 200r4s, I think your problem lies outside the transmission itself, although it can't be ruled out.

Negative to me is giving up because you can't make it work.

Roger.

gearheads78

there is no software for 700r4 or 200-4r transmissions. They are simple one or two wire hook up. Vacuum switch and a cruise control cut off is all that should be needed. My guess is you need an adjustable vacuum switch so you can tune it to your motor. The is also a simple delay someone makes. I think its like an 8 second delay. It would help stop frequent locking and unlocking.

jag1886

I give up. I will keep my future findings to myself and not participate anymore.

CQR

jag, I wouldn't take it that way. I appreciate the input you have givin. I take the other posts in a more positive way. That there is a way to make the 200 work correctly.

gearheads78

So someone is trying to help you out with your problem and you get defensive and throw your hands up??

This is the one I was thinking of this morning with the built in 8 sec delay.
http://bowlertransmissions.com/p/99/...control-module

oldsguybry

OK , your worse then me ! What you don't want help ? It just so happens that Joe is the MAN when it comes to cars , and he knows about everything ! ( I think his name has been mentioned in books and magazines ! ) I would listen to what he says , because he knows ! Just back up a little and take a breather maybe .

bccan

Richard is sending you the right direction with the Bowler delay unit - it takes all the cycling & immediate relocking out of the picture. You could try to build your own delay box which I would personally set around 4-6 seconds but their kit can be installed & driving in an hour. For my money & taste this makes operation as close to a factory style as you are gonna get.

Run the vac switch (ported vac), if adjustable you can dial it in. I would start around 8-10" and see if it needs tweaking. I think the GM switch (long since discontinued) kicks @ 7".

Keep the brake (cruise) switch & 4th gear only lockup.

Be sure to change case connector (in kit) as it is a 700 style, not the 200 style - incompatible.

I have found it to be as "clean" & "transparent" as you can get. Could only be better if it read my mind & knew that I wanted it to hold off relocking on a long entrance ramp after a throttle close or stay locked for a throttle close on a long coast or waiting for a left lane "clingon". But even in those situations it is nearly unnoticeable. In CT we only have hills as opposed to your mountains but I don't see it as a problem. That is kinda where an adjustable vac switch might be a good tuning aid, can raise or lower the vac to unlock.

This may be Cupid's arrow to rekindle your relationship w/ that 200-4R. If you try it & don't like it, PM me & I'll buy it off you to put in a spare trans.

joe_padavano

My point was that the design of the lockup converter is NOT at fault here, given how many with the same design are working fine. The problem is either with the rebuild of this specific trans or with the implementation of the lockup circuit.

First, simply pulling the plug off the side of the trans disables the lockup. If you are still having problems, it's internal to this transmission and not a fundamental design issue.

If pulling the plug stops the problem then you have to fix whatever system you are using to engage the converter. If you have used a simple toggle switch to power and are having cycling issues, then again the problem is internal to the trans. The lockup system is about as simple as it gets. There's a solenoid valve that closes with voltage and sends high pressure fluid to the converter to engage the clutch. Remove the 12 volt source (as in with a toggle switch) and the converter unlocks. If the solenoid valve is bad, it can hang up and prevent disengaging. Replace the solenoid.

If you are using a pressure switch inside the trans to inhibit lockup in lower gears, be SURE it's the correct type (normally open or normally closed, depending you how you've wired the lockup circuit). Be SURE it's in the correct pressure port - this can vary depending on valve body. Wiring a normally closed brake switch into the power wire to the converter is a smart thing to do and is trivially easy. There's no science to it.

The Chevy trucks used a vacuum switch to disengage the converter when you floor the gas. Get one of these. They work great.

Finally, if you are sensing "cycling" of the converter, be SURE that this is not an ignition problem. The lockup feature is great at highlighting ignition misfire problems that would otherwise be masked by a traditional non-locking converter. I had exactly this problem in a newer car and replacing the coil packs fixed the problem.

gearheads78

You have an idea of how to do this. I am putting a 700r4 in my 78 Suburban right now and love the idea of the delay but don't have $200.00 to make it happen. I'm certain brain power and a $10.00 trip to Radioshack could do it but I am not sure how to do it.
Thanks
Richard

gearheads78

Might have found an inexpensive solution. These are only 49.99

http://www.offroadengineering.com/pr...te-Relays.html

bccan

Nice find on those controls! The VCM-03.10SA looks like just the ticket. Use a normally open 4th gear pressure switch in conjunction w/ master, cruise & vac switches & you are on the road w/ nearly seamless lockup control.

Power into master switch, then to cruise side of brake switch, next through the vac switch & lastly through the 4th gear pressure switch feeding the input side of the delay box. IIRC you would run output from timer to the upper left (forward) pin on trans case, ground to the lower left (front) pin. You can tap the valve body or external fitting on the right rear of trans case for the pressure switch. I cannot tell you what pin type is used but a 200-4R harness side plug w/ pigtails is Auveco part #18918.

Vistabrat72

When I installed the overdrive 200-R4 on my '72 Vista Cruiser, at first I simply had an on/off toggle switch, just to get the car on the road, and to see if the lockup worked, it did. Bit by bit, I ended up with the recipe that bccan has described for the power flow of the electricity through the circuit. I was about 80% satisfied with the results. The complaint I had was much like yours jag 1886. The car would lug, then kick out of lockup all of a sudden, then lockup pretty soon afterwards. I really had to anticipate this, and when needed, unlock the converter with the manual switch to prevent the nonsense. How did I fix it on my application? Do you have that little vacuum delay valve right before the vacuum switch? If you do, try taking it out of the vacuum line circuit and try again. It is the piece that looks like a little can in the line, with a blue end on one side, part number 14020691. Was used on many 1980-to 1987 (later in Canadian applications) carburetor applications for egr efe tcc equipped vehicles. It would prevent hunting, meaning lock/unlock/lock/unlock in rapid succession, totally driving somebody nuts! These 'dark ages of engineering' cars had lousy vacuum and lost it very easily, thus the need for delay valves. On our older, much more efficient Oldsmobiles, these valves become a hindrance, we can control vacuum right away with pedal pressure. When I researched this I removed the delay valve, all of a sudden, with a bit of throttle, I could unlock the converter, nice to keep the car in 4th while doing a pass on the highway, the 'slip' of the converter being the kickdown literally, and lifting my foot ever slightly locked the converter once again. On my car, at cruising speed, about 1/2 throttle does the trick. At higher speeds the unlock happens at progressively higher speeds. Now it could vary on your ride, final drives could play a part, I run 3.73's. Still not perfect, I am 95% there. There is on occasion at a certain speed/throttle, not all the time though, of a little hunting, perhaps 2 or three cycles, I merely move my foot a hair. Now, to keep the lockup from happening right away when I hit 4th, I have a delay relay in the circuit, rated between 1 to three seconds, mine was thankfully close to 3-second delay. It is a Bosch-style 5-pin relay, only it is about 1 3/4 inch tall versus a regular 1-inch tall regular offering. I got it at a flea market a while ago, the only markings are 'Dualtec Electronics' and 'Made in Canada'. If there is enough interest I will go into hound mode and search out the part number for Dualtec, they make all sorts of relays. The delay relay has now made use of the manual toggle switch all but unneeded now. To note, make sure connections on the vacuum valve are kept clean and corrosion free, the style of connection is rinky-dink, my lockup quit on the way home from a cruise last evening, now fixed, traced to these very connections. Don't give up on this, any thing can be overcome on these old car projects, nobody likes to throw in the towel! Howie