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I had some issues with the 2004R transmission I had built. the drum and shaft broke. I have never seen where the shaft rips out of the drum at the weld before. Needless to say a billet replacement part is going in and will give it another try. The car was less than two miles into the test driving and tuning when the trans let go.
Yes, I know and there is one on it's way. When I had the trans rebuilt I was told it would handle 650hp reliably but obviously did not. I am hoping to get the car back from the mechanics within the next few weeks.
Yes, I know and there is one on it's way. When I had the trans rebuilt I was told it would handle 650hp reliably but obviously did not. I am hoping to get the car back from the mechanics within the next few weeks.
Mike
The stock forward drum on a 200-4R is rated at 300 ft-lbs. I don't know if your broken one is stock or not. This failure is pretty common on the OEM parts.
It was supposed to be a hardened piece but looking at the wear on the shaft I think it was probably the stock part reused. The engine is 550+/-hp so that would definitely do the trick in breaking the forward drum like that.
Way back in 1998, I built a 200r4 trans for my 69. I used a Grand National core, wide band, TransGo shift kit, upgraded the pump, spent way too much time getting the TV cable geometry perfect, bought a Shiftworks conversion kit for the console shift, etc all in preparation of Power Tour later That year. Once it was obvious tue trans was working the way it should, I took it out for a long test drive, I really beat on it. I figured if it would hold up under abuse, it should be fine for a couple thousand easy street miles. Good plan, reality was much different. The spirited test drive went well, on the way home is when the issue started. I noticed a traffic light getting ready to change to red, I let off the throttle. As I was coasting to a stop, I felt a very slight clunk and could feel the entire driveline “relax”. Got back on the throttle, nothing. Suddenly, my 4speed trams had 6 nuetrals and park.
At the time time I had a friend with a Grans National, and a 89 Turbo Trans Am, both with stock 2004r trans. Their cars ran very similar quarter mile times, plus the Trans Am had lots of autocross miles. They never had any trans issues. I’m guessing the turbo spooling up kinda softened the shock, the instant torque of a BBO Olds was too much for the stock part
Last edited by matt69olds; February 25th, 2019 at 06:39 PM.
I chose the 2004R for the gear ratios and have 3.55 posi in the rear. I am not the one that did the test drives but I am told there was no clunk sound, it just stopped moving. I also used the Lokar adapter to keep the column shift. I wanted the car to look as stock as possible and now it just sits an inch lower than normal. Also running a 6.0L LS that is bored .30 over with 10.5:1 compression and a bit more than a mild cam. I am hoping we can get everything back together in it by spring so I can take on some fun drives through the mountains this summer.
Another thing is abuse and use. How many cycles of stress have they already seen over the years, in other cars before being rebuilt and used again. Then how much more are people then asking them to do with harder shifts and components, with less give, in themselves.
A brand new trans behind the GSX was good to well over 400 ft lbs, for many cycles, but that was with all new factory parts. Now increasing the clutch pressures and surfaces puts more load on all other components that are already used and perhaps have seen there better and stronger days.
The hardened used stock input may hold up fine, but in another trans not. Its always a gamble.
I know people say the 2004R is indestructible if built right, but if GM thought it was that tough, it would have been put in Trucks. It was never used in a truck.
4L80E is the only way to go if you are pushing big torque and want to use it.
The 700R4 will survive a little while. It definitely has a crap 3-4 clutch setup and the low splines in the case tend to wear out. But works pretty well for A-bodies in general.
That said, I've used all of them. Got a 200 Monte ss trans my '72 240z V8 and it works okay in that body.
Last edited by bry593; February 26th, 2019 at 05:08 PM.
A 200-4R is a good street trans if you upgrade to billet internals. If properly built, I would feel OK using it in a 12sec, maybe high 11sec street car.
I really want one of these for my 442, as I desperately need O.D. & don't want to modify the car in any permanent way.
Has a decent first gear & OD ratios.
I had put together a few builds with 700R4/4L60E transmissions & they can last if built properly in a 10sec car, but I would not expect them to last forever.
Has a terrible 1-2 gear spread, but good for getting an underpowered car off the line.
I witnessed one run 9's in a Procharged Camaro for multiple years without failure, but also broke many of them in my Chevy pickup behind a built 427.
The 4L80E is a strong trans, but a monster in both size & weight, plus factor in the cost of a trans controller to make it work.
It also has the least first gear & OD ratio of the 3 transmissions.
I have a modified 200-4R built by Jack Laswell, here in Dallas. Nationally known as a Buick GN guru in the 64 F-85 build. No issues, shifts very fast, instantly. Slow to mild acceleration it churps the rear tires when it goes from first to 2nd. Love it...
I agree with you. I'm also impressed that you know 200-4r vs 200-r4. Not many do.
Robski,
The key to a good performance 200-4R is the correct valve body. Good ones came in GN, 442 and SS. All others will require a guru to get right. Sounds like your guy knows what he is doing if he started with a typical valve body.
Last edited by bry593; February 26th, 2019 at 05:15 PM.
I haven’t spent nearly the time and effort building and text the 200r4 as many of the big name builders, but there is enough people saying the trans can handle big power with the right upgrades for me to believe. However, in my opinion you can build a trans with all the high dollar upgrades and still have a weaker trans than a basically stock 4L80. All those billet and custom parts will go a long way to paying for the controller. The biggest issue with the 4L60/700 family is the input shaft pressed into an aluminum input housing. Big power will eventually crack the housing. I don’t think you could make a stronger housing, stronger would probably mean bigger and/or heavier. There is only so much room in the trans, and making it heavier isn’t a smart move either. The 200 trans is all stamped steel, leaving lots of options for upgraded parts, but that gets expensive. If you can fit a 4L80, your time and money ahead to use it.
BRY593, actually started out with with a GM 401 BK tranny ( if that's the correct code?) There is a blue tag on it and cannot remember. But its out of a 86-87 GN that Jack had and did his magic on. I was planning on building a 475-500 HP 425-455 bad boy to replace the 67 400E and he said it's good to go except for the converter. That depends on the new engine, how crazy it gets with cam choice etc.
I started out building TH350's & 400's as a teenager which to me were rather simple. (my Dads friend had a transmission shop).
When the 200-4R first came out we laughed at the "junk" stamped drums inside, but for a 150ish HP V6, I guess it was acceptable.
Then the GN's came out & I started to be impressed to what they would endure.
When I built a Nova in 1990, with 4.56 gears (little 327's need gear), I was determined to fit an OD trans in it so I could daily drive it. I did not feel the 200-4R would live with a built engine & big shot of nitrous so I got a 700R4 trans out of a newer Chevy Pickup & had it built it up.... I was not personally familiar with this trans but I took the gamble.
Problems I encountered were:
1. We could not get the trans programmed to make full throttle shifts much over 6000RPM unless it screwed up the part throttle shift points... I manually shifted it at 7000-7200.
2. There was a delay in the manual 2-3 shift, that was rather annoying in a fast revving car. I had to make the shift at 6600 to get it to actually shift at 7000.
3. First gear was too low with 4.56's. The 200-4R had way better gear spacing.
I did smoke some clutches in it using nitrous (175 jets) through the gear changes, but it held up to a lot of abuse.
Next I tried one in my Chevy Tk to see if I could get more performance out of it. I realized I could run 4.56's with the 700R4 (35" tires kill gearing) & get better mileage (& performance) than 3.73's & a TH400. I loved the combination, but the 427's torque in a 5000lb truck was tough on parts. Over the years it broke the reverse drum once & another time the sprag in the converter. In all fairness, it also broke 2 drive shafts, 2 sets of spider gears, 1 front axle & 2 rear pinions as I was not easy on it.
Recently I built a turbocharged 02 Chevy Tk with 600+rwhp & the built 4L60E trans worked great. There is nothing better than the programming ability of electronics. With a lockup 3000 stall you could drive it anywhere & make it shift perfectly while never having to manually shift it. Now with an upgrade to a bigger 6.2L, it is getting a 4L80E with billet internals to support the 800-900rwhp level it is destined for.
I'm not sure I will ever build another car without an overdrive trans.
Last edited by Lonnies Performance; February 26th, 2019 at 08:43 PM.
Getting a 2004r to shift isn't rocket science but it does take some effort and you will get to drop the pan, most likely more than once when you are starting with a non perf vb. Jake had some real good tips on his website but they are gone. CK performance turned me on to the Cadillac AA code 2004r. A decent(sonnax imo) servo, larger boost, reverse boost and the 700r4 spring to get the pressures up, some judicious drilling of the vb plate, fooling with the accumulators, and getting the governor squared away will get you a nice street car/cruiser trans on a budget. If you are going to the track with a sticky tire the billet shaft forward drum is good insurance for the park and six neutrals. Setting the clearance on the direct and band go a long way to shift feel also and you need to set the other internal clearances also as GM set them up pretty loose from the factory on the ones I've measured. Crisp shifts slam those internals around and stuff wears and breaks.
A 700r4/4l60/65/70e is a truck trans. Low first to get loads moving. I feel the reason they were put in cars is this was the only trans left after gm killed the 2004r. Not many rwd cars at that point. The 3-4 clutch in these has been worked over for decades and there just isn't enough room to get the needed clutch surface for high hp application. Put a lot of power through and it will torch em up, just a matter of how long they will last. Seems gm did get the shell figured out. I like this http://4l79.com and am going to try it out on the next 4l60e i build for our suburban. Lots of clutch for the 3-4.
Th400/4l80e is a beast of a trans and so is a powerglide with a gear vender's od unit. Indestructible? Sure but they are heavy. But by the time you are making that much power you are probably using some kind of stand alone ecu and controlling the 4l80e is just some more programing. And if it is a turbo a few more lbs of boost can overcome the extra weight.
Getting a 2004r to shift isn't rocket science but it does take some effort and you will get to drop the pan, most likely more than once when you are starting with a non perf vb. Jake had some real good tips on his website but they are gone. CK performance turned me on to the Cadillac AA code 2004r. A decent(sonnax imo) servo, larger boost, reverse boost and the 700r4 spring to get the pressures up, some judicious drilling of the vb plate, fooling with the accumulators, and getting the governor squared away will get you a nice street car/cruiser trans on a budget. If you are going to the track with a sticky tire the billet shaft forward drum is good insurance for the park and six neutrals. Setting the clearance on the direct and band go a long way to shift feel also and you need to set the other internal clearances also as GM set them up pretty loose from the factory on the ones I've measured. Crisp shifts slam those internals around and stuff wears and breaks.
A 700r4/4l60/65/70e is a truck trans. Low first to get loads moving. I feel the reason they were put in cars is this was the only trans left after gm killed the 2004r. Not many rwd cars at that point. The 3-4 clutch in these has been worked over for decades and there just isn't enough room to get the needed clutch surface for high hp application. Put a lot of power through and it will torch em up, just a matter of how long they will last. Seems gm did get the shell figured out. I like this http://4l79.com and am going to try it out on the next 4l60e i build for our suburban. Lots of clutch for the 3-4.
Th400/4l80e is a beast of a trans and so is a powerglide with a gear vender's od unit. Indestructible? Sure but they are heavy. But by the time you are making that much power you are probably using some kind of stand alone ecu and controlling the 4l80e is just some more programing. And if it is a turbo a few more lbs of boost can overcome the extra weight.
Listen to Rich fellows, and you can have more pleasure than pain with these transmissions. No transmission is ape proof. They require respect and care to live. The same with engines and rear ends an early on in life I destroyed some of the best, and watched as others did the same.
My 200r4, or reverse the r and 4 if you like, is one sweet smooth quite fast shifting vibration free transmission behind my 461, at very light part throttle. I drive it no different then when the TH400 with 3000 stall converter was in it, except with this new gearing it takes even less torque and RPMs to get the job done and up to speed.
The issues with the 200r4 is that its an obsolete transmission and cores are extremely hard to find now been out of production for 30yrs. Hard parts are hard to find. Pumps and direct drums have to be reconditioned. Same for valve bodies.
Pretty much the last one I did was case only everything else was junked. Took me two to make one and most parts came from CK, Lonnie, and Husek to fix it. The aftermarket is narrow for them and CK is selling out of most of his hard to find high performance parts. Just look on ebay as he has many of the hard to find valve bodies for sale. I like the trans, but just know what you are getting into.
One more point in relationship to the newer Street Demon carbs, and the 2004r or 700r4, and that is the hole marked by Holley for the TV cable is the wrong hole. Holley claims on the instructions for these carbs it the middle one that is correct, when it is the first hole that has the correct .1.10-.1.250 distance to the center of the throttle shaft needed for proper TV cable operations.
My 200r4 Has an easy life, I'll say. Back in 2002 I decided to have a 3:08 Posi Installed in my 1979 Cutlass so I would have a little more kick. Well it did all right, so much so it had the Olds 260 screaming in pain at 65 mph going at 3000 or so RPM. It was also key in blowing up the Metric 200 Trans on the way to the 2003 Olds Nationals.
I wanted to keep the 3:08's, but knowing the power curve in an Olds 260 with 105 hp is about 0 to 2000 RPMS, I opted for a stock mid 80's 200r4, I think mine came out of a Custom Cruiser wagon. Since the motor will never put any kind of heavy load on the 260 I got the best of both worlds with this set up. Around town I leave it in 3rd so the acceleration is now sort-of-slow instead of anemically, hideously slow (as in the orig. 2:29 axle), and then on the highway I pop it into 4th and I get my 1850 rpms at 65 mph getting my 22 mpg back.
Its a nice set up overall, and I got a 4 speed shift indicator that they use in the Grand Nationals and installed it into the plastic woodgrain bezel.
Last edited by BlueCalais79; March 3rd, 2019 at 08:00 AM.
My 200r4 Has an easy life, I'll say. Back in 2002 I decided to have a 3:08 Posi Installed in my 1979 Cutlass so I would have a little more kick. Well it did all right, so much so it had the Olds 260 screaming in pain at 65 mph going at 3000 or so RPM. It was also key in blowing up the Metric 200 Trans on the way to the 2003 Olds Nationals.
I wanted to keep the 3:08's, but knowing the power curve in an Olds 260 with 105 hp is about 0 to 2000 RPMS, I opted for a stock mid 80's 200r4, I think mine came out of a Custom Cruiser wagon. Since the motor will never put any kind of heavy load on the 260 I got the best of both worlds with this set up. Around town I leave it in 3rd so the acceleration is now sort-of-slow instead of anemically, hideously slow (as in the orig. 2:29 axle), and then on the highway I pop it into 4th and I get my 1850 rpms at 65 mph getting my 22 mpg back.
Its a nice set up overall, and I got a 4 speed shift indicator that they use in the Grand Nationals and installed it into the plastic woodgrain bezel.
If you had swapped in some 3.50 rear gears you would have still been around 2000 rpms around 66mph in 4th. http://precisionsite.com/auto-x/tools/
With its 0.673913 overdrive ratio
February 16th, 2019, 06:55 AM
