200-4r questions

Old January 16th, 2018, 02:43 PM
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200-R4 questions

I've got the 350 out for a rebuild in my 72 cutlass S Convertible, and I'm pondering all kinds of options that I probably can't afford to take on, but....
I've found a 200-R4 from the salvage yard from a 1984 Delta 88. No data tag and they don't know if it was diesel or not.
Is this a good donor to start building for my project?

BTW it's $400

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Old January 16th, 2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mikejana View Post
I've got the 350 out for a rebuild in my 72 cutlass S Convertible, and I'm pondering all kinds of options that I probably can't afford to take on, but....
I've found a 200-R4 from the salvage yard from a 1984 Delta 88. No data tag and they don't know if it was diesel or not.
Is this a good donor to start building for my project?

BTW it's $400
Most likely too old and worn out. The later the year for them the better they were on their internals. These are not cheap transmission either, to get fixed right, unless you already rebuild transmissions, or want to start learning and doing it now. Also consider a 700r4.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Firewalker View Post
Most likely too old and worn out. The later the year for them the better they were on their internals. These are not cheap transmission either, to get fixed right, unless you already rebuild transmissions, or want to start learning and doing it now. Also consider a 700r4.
Thanks,
Actually would like to rebuild one myself and thought this one might be a good start. I've been reading the threads and would appreciate any input.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 03:54 PM
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Its been my observation that _every_ overdrive transmission is "not cheap". Suggest shop "new with warranty" prices from major transmission vendors to know what you're signing up for...its unlikely you'll beat them on dollars with a core and parts+rebuild.

The 700-R4 has a steep first gear and requires an adapter for non-Chevy bellhousing. Weakest listed here (?).
The 200-4R can be built to the moon with lots of aftermarket support from the GN crowd.
The 4L80E is a billy bad *** TH-400 that's very large physically and even MORE expensive. Also requires a bellhousing adapter.

All require the addition of a computer. Once you start looking at the $$ numbers a Gear Vendors behind the transmission you have starts to look better and better.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ReallyWildStuff View Post
Its been my observation that _every_ overdrive transmission is "not cheap". Suggest shop "new with warranty" prices from major transmission vendors to know what you're signing up for...its unlikely you'll beat them on dollars with a core and parts+rebuild.

The 700-R4 has a steep first gear and requires an adapter for non-Chevy bellhousing. Weakest listed here (?).
The 200-4R can be built to the moon with lots of aftermarket support from the GN crowd.
The 4L80E is a billy bad *** TH-400 that's very large physically and even MORE expensive. Also requires a bellhousing adapter.

All require the addition of a computer. Once you start looking at the $$ numbers a Gear Vendors behind the transmission you have starts to look better and better.
You mean the 4L80E requires a computer I think, as the others don't. While the 2004r is a .67 overdrive, and the 700r4 is a .7 the gear vendors, If I remember right, is only about .8, and to me it costs a whole lot for what it is. No lockup converter with the gear vendors either, which many might want.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 06:55 PM
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The 84 2004R is fine to rebuild, not a million cores lying around. A hardened stator, big Transgo shift kit, and a quality rebuild kit should live behind a mild 350. Clutch Clearance is critical for shift quality and a long life in these trans, along with boosted line pressure.
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Old January 16th, 2018, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
The 84 2004R is fine to rebuild, not a million cores lying around. A hardened stator, big Transgo shift kit, and a quality rebuild kit should live behind a mild 350. Clutch Clearance is critical for shift quality and a long life in these trans, along with boosted line pressure.
I'm sending a PM
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Old January 17th, 2018, 12:52 AM
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The 2004R is a good trans when built right. Pull the pan, if the pan isn’t full of crud I’d run it. Get the TransGo shift kit that includes the servo. Or better yet contact Chris at CK Performance and order his valve body, serve, and governor package. There is no reason a stock 2004R trans won’t live behind a mild 350, assuming it’s in good condition and the TV cable is adjusted correctly.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 07:40 PM
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Thanks guys, on the way to pick up a 1990 200-r4 from a Buick Electra in the morning. The alternative was a 1990 from a Cadillac Brougham. Both under $200.
Anyone wanna share the CK manual?

Should be assembling the motor within 2 weeks, so need to make some quick decisions and get the complete set of tranny parts on the way.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 09:08 PM
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Other than the factory calibration, there is no difference between a “performance” trans out of a Monte Carlo, 442, or Grand National and the internals from either of your donor cars. Use whichever one has the cleaner pan and better looking fluid. Install the performance upgrades, look over the stator support tube, and have fun
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Old January 18th, 2018, 10:05 AM
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You may need to change the rear end gearing in your Cutlass to get the most from the 200-4R swap. The turbo Buick GNs came with a 3.42:1 gear and the Monte Carlo SS came with a 3.73:1 gear. I believe the '84 Delta w/OD had a 3.23:1 rear gear. The 200-4R shift parameters were optimized to the final drive ratio.
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Old January 18th, 2018, 09:21 PM
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Thanks for the info. Pretty set on the 200-r4. I have a really nice th350 in that was rebuilt last year, but need the overdrive. I'll have a big torquey motor that can pull my gears.

I really need the specific parts I should have on hand for the rebuild and swap.
I hear good things about the transgo kit, but surely I need more than that?

I also hear good things about CK, do i need their whole kit, or is it better to add parts to the transgo kit?

Are the yokes on the output shafts common between 200-r4 and th350?

what else is needed, ie emergency brake, torque converter and cooler lines?
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Old January 19th, 2018, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by cdrod View Post
The turbo Buick GNs came with a 3.42:1 gear and the Monte Carlo SS came with a 3.73:1 gear.
I might be wrong, but didn't the Monte Carlo SS come with the 3.42:1 also. The 3.73:1 gears came in the 442's from 85-87.
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Old January 19th, 2018, 10:27 AM
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I think the GNs only came with 3.42 gears, MonteSS and 442s came with the 3.73 gears. Maybe the 3.42 was an optional gear for the standard Monte Carlo (not the SS model).
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Old January 19th, 2018, 11:35 AM
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CK performance offers a complete valve body,servo, and governor. TransGo makes a good kite as long as it includes the servo for 2nd gear. You will need the governor to get rid of the 4000rpm shift points the trans is probably calibrated with. One of the disadvantages of the 2004r is the governor is in the pan, and doesn’t use weights and springs like the 700,350, or 400 trans. You will waste lots of transmission fluid and gaskets trying to get the shift points where you want them, your better off buying a governor that is already calibrated instead of trying it yourself
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Old January 19th, 2018, 04:05 PM
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A billet shaft and forward drum is needed for over 400 ft/lbs. Also a 2 quart extra aluminum pan like Hughes that comes with a bottom feed 700R4 filter. I actually prefer the fit of the early 4L60E filter. Or a sheet metal pan with a bottom feed remote filter set up is even better. Either one is necessary for a 2004R to live. CK Performance is good place to buy all the rebuild parts. A Monte SS or Buick GN governor is a good pick for a performance engine. My 4000 RPM governor with a better TV limit spring and many grinding trials and a added stake screw to keep it from flying apart gave me 4900 rpm full throttle shifts. The 2004R is a good trans but will cost me $1500 minimum in parts alone to survive behind 500 planned ft/lbs, so I am thinking a 4L80E or T-56 swap instead.
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Old January 19th, 2018, 04:58 PM
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Transmission is home. Got one out of an 89 Chevy Caprice with a 305.
Tag says: 017-892CTF0511
I believe that means Jan 17, 1989 2nd shift CTF for Caprice 305 ####
Ill call ck on Monday to order kit, anyone have the CK manual to share?
Here she is:











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Old January 19th, 2018, 05:36 PM
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Mike, good conversation tonight. I have the big CK manual, you can borrow it as long as you want.
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Old January 20th, 2018, 10:27 AM
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Thanks Christian, Appreciate all the information. I'll send you a PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 11:50 PM
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I have a CK performance shift kit I'm looking to sell as well. I'm pretty sure I have the one with the Billet servo. I'll have to check if you are interested.

http://www.ckperformance.com/View/SH...SERVO-ASSEMBLY

The 200r4 can be built to be a stout transmission. I much better trans for drag racing too since it has the lower first gear. I just had mine rebuit at a local shop. Spent $2900. A lot of the GN guys swear by this guy too. He had a Grand national in the shop right before mine, built the trans the same way. The car will chip 2nd gear now
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Redog View Post
I have a CK performance shift kit I'm looking to sell as well. I'm pretty sure I have the one with the Billet servo. I'll have to check if you are interested.

http://www.ckperformance.com/View/SH...SERVO-ASSEMBLY

The 200r4 can be built to be a stout transmission. I much better trans for drag racing too since it has the lower first gear. I just had mine rebuit at a local shop. Spent $2900. A lot of the GN guys swear by this guy too. He had a Grand national in the shop right before mine, built the trans the same way. The car will chip 2nd gear now
Who built yours? Sounds like a fair price with labour and parts like the billet forward shaft and drum.
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Redog View Post
I have a CK performance shift kit I'm looking to sell as well. I'm pretty sure I have the one with the Billet servo. I'll have to check if you are interested.

http://www.ckperformance.com/View/SH...SERVO-ASSEMBLY

The 200r4 can be built to be a stout transmission. I much better trans for drag racing too since it has the lower first gear. I just had mine rebuit at a local shop. Spent $2900. A lot of the GN guys swear by this guy too. He had a Grand national in the shop right before mine, built the trans the same way. The car will chip 2nd gear now
Thanks Redog,
I'd be interested, but pretty sure I need the master rebuild kit with all the bands, sprags , friction plates ect...
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 05:49 AM
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Don't forget parts like the upgraded sunshell from CK as well. Basically read through the parts, he has at what power levels parts should be upgraded at in their descriptions.
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
Who built yours? Sounds like a fair price with labour and parts like the billet forward shaft and drum.
Meenan Transmission in Willow Grove, PA.

Very happy with the end result. Everything inside that trans has been replaced. I have the list at home
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Old January 24th, 2018, 06:25 AM
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What is everyone using for a deep pan? Hughes seems to be the only one I can find.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 06:50 AM
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Looks like that trans has been out of a car for awhile sitting in the weather.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mikejana View Post
What is everyone using for a deep pan? Hughes seems to be the only one I can find.
PML makes a nice cast aluminum pan in a stock depth and a deep version. I bought the low-profile 11070 pan and running 1/2 quart over full. I bought it from www.cjcoffroad.com I've attached some info below.


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Old January 26th, 2018, 05:15 PM
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Thanks Guys, That PMJ pan looks like a twin to the hughes.

It wa sprobably in the weather awhile, came from a salvage yard for $200. Fluid looked pretty clean so..... We will know this weekend.

Running a stroker 350 and guessing 370hp/440 TQ.
Anyone have torque converter advice that won't break the bank?
Not racing and wanna be able to pull overdrive with my 2.73 gear. Calculator says 2100ish rpm at 77mph.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 08:29 AM
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You can get CK master kit off ebay. I saw it here last week on this sellers web site. I bought all my recent 200r4 parts from Alex. Just keep in mind he buys in bulk and a distributor. I’ve had problems twice once with a roller center support and a billet input from him. Which meant I shipped the parts and mating parts to CK. Just had to do this last week so keep that in mind. Better to call Michelle/Chris and get parts tailored to your needs.

I also bought parts from Dave Husek turbo buick performance. Have his direct clutch prssure plates which are a must. Stock pressure plates are usually burnt and warped even if you can find good ones you are lucky. They are like $100 a plate. The forward pressure plate is next one of the hardest to find.

If you decide to piece meal and get parts from others, i have a CK billet servo - used, set of tan frictions for the forward and direct - installed, but went with altos. Overun frictions - tan - installed, but not ran. All frictions you can still see raybestos names. Hardened shell, Alto wide band, roller lower reverse, ck deep pan (steel) - need decent ground clearance, and a sets of used steels pulled out of a trans someone else built that were good. I just built my last 200r4 and have totes of stuff.

You should go with a billet forward drum for sure and get the 4th piston machined for the additional clutch.

Nice score on the trans.

Here is a link to where you can find ck parts

Hope this helps
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004R-SHIFT...MAAOSw7ehXR4CK
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Old January 27th, 2018, 10:29 AM
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Thanks olds403, I already have the STREET AND STRIP MASTER REBUILD KIT WITH BILLET DRUM AND BILLET SERVO from Chris at CKperformance.

CK's website says it's good for 450 hp and up to 800 ftlbs of torque. My only concern is not hardened input shaft. He reccomended against it unless I popped another $700 for the PRO STREET MASTER REBUILD KIT, which was not possible. Is there an improved input shaft in your bin?
Thanks Mike
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Old January 27th, 2018, 01:54 PM
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Hello,
No, i just bought that input from CK myself. By the time i bought it I spent another $700 for the shaft, OD Gear and billet od Ring. It ‘s more less matching. You will have to machine your input shaft stock one to fit in the ck billet input shaft. I use teflon single rings on my inputs. I get them from cobra transmissions.

Start a build post. Will post as needed. Good chance your pump will have issues. Most do. I had to send mine off.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 08:31 AM
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I found this kit for the shifter conversion but it only fits the console shifter.

Is there a solution for a console shifter?
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Old January 30th, 2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mikejana View Post
I found this kit for the shifter conversion but it only fits the console shifter.

Is there a solution for a console shifter?
Do you mean column shifter? You don't need to do anything with the column shifter, unless you are manually shifting low gear. Drive is Overdrive and Drive is 2 and 1 is Second on the column indicator. I think I could grab low but I had my shift points right at 5000 RPM where I wanted them so I never manually grabbed gears with the column shifter. Take off the shifter rod attachment off your TH350 and attach it using the proper metric nut on your 2004R.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403 View Post
Do you mean column shifter? You don't need to do anything with the column shifter, unless you are manually shifting low gear. Drive is Overdrive and Drive is 2 and 1 is Second on the column indicator. I think I could grab low but I had my shift points right at 5000 RPM where I wanted them so I never manually grabbed gears with the column shifter. Take off the shifter rod attachment off your TH350 and attach it using the proper metric nut on your 2004R.
Good to know. I was hoping it would work like that.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 04:40 AM
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I can provide some good testimony on the 200R4, I have a 79 Calais with the Olds 260 motor and a 2:29 rear axle. I replaced it with a 3:08 posi some years back and it ran the motor to about 3100 rpm at 65 mph. That was too much for the original TH200 and it blew up. I installed a TH350 but I was just not comfortable with running such a high rpm at highway speeds and I drove this car alot on the highway. So, I ditched the TH350 for a 200R4 which brought my RPM's back down to 1850 at 65mph and thereby getting my 22 mpg back. Really, really nice addition to it, never looked back. It's a bit peppier around town and for highway driving I just pop it into 4th.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 06:49 AM
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I had the Hughes pan, mine always seeped some no matter what I did, it may have been warped, just sold mine. I got 26 imperial mpg with a stock 2004R behind the 260 in my 88 Cutlass, aiming for 30 mpg with a couple of improvements. I was disappointed with the 19 mpg imperial I got with the 2004R behind my 350 in my 70S, with the 2.78 gear and short 235/60R14 tires, 1700 rpm at 60 mph. I think it was too low of RPM for my cams sweet spot. I think having a better piston ring pack and a roller cam might help not must help in the power but also the mpg as well. What rear gearing are you planning on and what size tires?
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Old January 31st, 2018, 05:27 PM
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My gear is 2.93, I'm running 225/70-14 I believe.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 06:50 PM
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You will be running very low RPM at 60 mph, around 1500 RPM at 60 mph and 1750 RPM at 70 mph. This calculator is very accurate for RPM with a lock up torque converter.
http://tech.oldsgmail.com/ch_axle.php
I find a 3.42 gear to be a nice cruising gear, 1750 RPM at 60 mph with your size of tires. I am switching to that size of tire to make my speedometer accurate and lower RPM by 100 at 60 mph in my 88 Cutlass looking for maximum mileage.
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Old February 1st, 2018, 07:52 AM
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That sounds about right on the money, I have P205/75R/14's on my Calais with that 3:08 posi, as mentioned I'm going 1,850 rpm at 65 mph. This is all I can ask for, completely happy with that performance. With my Olds 260 I find the RPM power curve is maxed right about at.......there isn't any.


I originally had a shift kit when it was first installed, but I've since had it removed and it goes through bone stock shifts. Also, as I have a very low horsepower boat anchor of a motor in a lighter model year Cutlass, I was able to save a lot of money by having the 200R4 rebuilt to stock specs. You have a heavier car and you might want a little something extra out of it, like a shift kit, higher shift points, etc., I didn't really need any of that. For me, the milder the better.

Last edited by BlueCalais79; February 1st, 2018 at 07:58 AM.
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Old February 1st, 2018, 01:22 PM
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I also went completely stock behind my 260, it was rebuilt at some point. The shift quality is massively better with the big Transgo kit, the CK kit with the .555 boost valve and bigger servo is supposed to be even better. My 260's power band is idle to maybe the high 3K's. My 2004R's 4100-4200 rpm shift points really make the 260 sound distressed. Mike needs many upgrades behind 450 ft/lbs of torque.
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