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66 Toro, I've had the car for about 1.5 years, never got to do an alignment yet because I've been busy with other things (and so is every mechanic in my area )
The steering wheel is turned about 3/4 to the left when going straight. Car otherwise goes fairly straight down the road.
my question is, What kind of pothole can possibly cause something like that? It's been that way the whole time I've had it. Any possible other causes?
Either something got bent from a large pothole, incorrect parts were installed and/or it was never set properly. Don't use the remove and reposition the steering wheel method, that will make more problems. See if you have a frame shop that does alignments or at least someone at an alignment shop that cares about their work quality. Due to the age of the car it would help the tech if you gave them the alignment specs.
If you're saying the car has been that way since Day 1 (when you bought it) but the car goes straight down the road, it's possible an inept alignment person forgot to center (clock) the steering wheel during a previous alignment.
If the the car steers correctly but the steering wheel isn't centered in the straight-ahead position, the problem is simply that the last time the car was aligned whoever did it was a clown who didn't understand the correct process. You simply need to lengthen one tie rod and shorten the other by the same amount to center the wheel. So long as you count turns carefully, this is something you can do in your driveway. Be sure to verify that the steering box is centered before adjusting the wheel position. The best way to do this is to accurately count the turns from hard left to hard right, then come back exactly half way. The real problem with not having the wheel centered is that it also means that the steering box is not centered, which messes up the spool valve position in the box.
Its much more likely the steering wheel or shaft were removed at one point and not clocked correctly than any kind of pot hole causing that much damage. If it was an alignment issue I'm sure you would have noticed how odd it drove immediately.
I would either pop the wheel off and spin it or adjust the tie rods to fix this. If you choose to adjust the tie rods, simply turn the adjusters the same amount on either side. I would go a turn at a time, adjust them so the wheels turn the way the steering wheel is off. Once the wheel is straight tighten the sleeves down after you make sure the tie rods are sitting square and not twisted on the *****. Easy peasy.
The steering box should be centered and the steering wheel should be centered on it. The final "going down the road" centering of the steering wheel should be dialed in via tie-rod sleeve adjustment. If the changing of the indexing of the steering wheel in relation to the steering box center method is used, the turn signal cancelling feature will be off-center
Its much more likely the steering wheel or shaft were removed at one point and not clocked correctly than any kind of pot hole causing that much damage. If it was an alignment issue I'm sure you would have noticed how odd it drove immediately.
I would either pop the wheel off and spin it
DO NOT "pop the wheel off and spin it". The GM steering shaft pieces are keyed so that they only go together in one clocking position. You have to be a really ham-fisted gorilla to force them together at any clocking other that 180 deg out, and even that requires you to force two different diameter bolts in the rag joint into incorrect holes. You can't clock the steering wheel incorrectly on the shaft because the tube for the horn contact only fits into the steering wheel hub one way.
This is really very simple. Turn the steering wheel all the way to one side, count the turns to full lock on the other side, then come back half way. THIS IS WHAT MATTERS. Pull off the horn button. The upper end of the steering shaft has a scribe mark that should be at 12 o'clock with the wheel straight ahead. If it isn't, the tie rods are adjusted incorrectly. Fix that. DO NOT randomly reclock parts of the steering shaft (which you won't be able to do easily anyway).
Even simpler if you center the steering wheel/lock it to the seat cushion with a push rod then open the turn buckles before you perform the alignment. Someone weren’t not thinking so much.
Even simpler if you center the steering wheel/lock it to the seat cushion with a push rod then open the turn buckles before you perform the alignment. Someone weren’t not thinking so much.
No, it is not. Set the wheels straight ahead and make the steering box and column match. Of course, on an alignment rack with turn tables for the front wheels, this is very easy. In your driveway with the tires on pavement, you want the wheels to be straight ahead and move the steering box/column.
Even simpler if you center the steering wheel/lock it to the seat cushion with a push rod then open the turn buckles before you perform the alignment. Someone weren’t not thinking so much.
By adjusting the tie rods you're moving the steering wheel not the front wheels, the steering wheel needs to be free to turn.
To be honest, the best thing for the OP to do is to take it to a reliable alignment shop (not a franchised pepboys or such) and get the front end aligned including the steering wheel corrected.
By adjusting the tie rods you're moving the steering wheel not the front wheels, the steering wheel needs to be free to turn.
To be honest, the best thing for the OP to do is to take it to a reliable alignment shop (not a franchised pepboys or such) and get the front end aligned including the steering wheel corrected.
Certainly one can do that, but it really isn't difficult to adjust the tie rods to center the wheel. Of course, I do my own alignments.
DO NOT "pop the wheel off and spin it". The GM steering shaft pieces are keyed so that they only go together in one clocking position. You have to be a really ham-fisted gorilla to force them together at any clocking other that 180 deg out, and even that requires you to force two different diameter bolts in the rag joint into incorrect holes. You can't clock the steering wheel incorrectly on the shaft because the tube for the horn contact only fits into the steering wheel hub one way.
This is really very simple. Turn the steering wheel all the way to one side, count the turns to full lock on the other side, then come back half way. THIS IS WHAT MATTERS. Pull off the horn button. The upper end of the steering shaft has a scribe mark that should be at 12 o'clock with the wheel straight ahead. If it isn't, the tie rods are adjusted incorrectly. Fix that. DO NOT randomly reclock parts of the steering shaft (which you won't be able to do easily anyway).
Nah. The horn "tube" contact spins 360 with the wheel. That doesn't matter at all. The cancel cam is on the back of the wheel hub, so that doesn't matter either.
What kind of cluster **** would it be on the assembly line if these parts needed clocked without any kind of keyway?
Nah. The horn "tube" contact spins 360 with the wheel. That doesn't matter at all. The cancel cam is on the back of the wheel hub, so that doesn't matter either.
What kind of cluster **** would it be on the assembly line if these parts needed clocked without any kind of keyway?
And yet, they ARE indexed to only go together one way. And no, the cancel cam with the horn contact does not spin 360, at least not on the 1969-up columns. It is keyed to the lock plate that only goes on the shaft one way.
And yet, they ARE indexed to only go together one way. And no, the cancel cam with the horn contact does not spin 360, at least not on the 1969-up columns. It is keyed to the lock plate that only goes on the shaft one way.
Um all that spins better than 360°... how else would the wheel be able to turn 3-4 turns lock to lock? 1440°... it all spins round and round.
Um all that spins better than 360°... how else would the wheel be able to turn 3-4 turns lock to lock? 1440°... it all spins round and round.
One more time...
On the 1969-up cars, the cancel cam is keyed to the lock plate that is keyed to the shaft. The steering wheel hub only goes on the cancel cam post in one position. The shaft turns 360 deg. The cancel cam doesn't turn independently of it.
More importantly, if you reclock the steering wheel, the steering box will NOT be in the center of travel. That means that you'll have different turning radii RH vs LH. It also means that the spool valve on the PS box won't be centered in the straight ahead position. Why are people proud of doing thing half-fast?
On the 1969-up cars, the cancel cam is keyed to the lock plate that is keyed to the shaft. The steering wheel hub only goes on the cancel cam post in one position. The shaft turns 360 deg. The cancel cam doesn't turn independently of it.
More importantly, if you reclock the steering wheel, the steering box will NOT be in the center of travel. That means that you'll have different turning radii RH vs LH. It also means that the spool valve on the PS box won't be centered in the straight ahead position. Why are people proud of doing thing half-fast?
All that is neat, however he is talking about a 66. Locking plates are irrelevant as the key is in the dash.
Giving up a little travel in the steering box left to right isn't much of an issue unless it's way the hell off.
66 Toro, I've had the car for about 1.5 years, never got to do an alignment yet because I've been busy with other things (and so is every mechanic in my area )
The steering wheel is turned about 3/4 to the left when going straight. Car otherwise goes fairly straight down the road.
my question is, What kind of pothole can possibly cause something like that? It's been that way the whole time I've had it. Any possible other causes?
Just get the car aligned properly. Take the specs from the shop manual along with the TORONADO-SPECIFIC alignment procedure. Toronados are a little "different" in how they're aligned. You might do better at a shop that does heavy trucks.
If you hadn't noticed, the Toronado's tie rods and center link are almost the size of your wrist. Sure, Hairy could bend them under full throttle, but otherwise takes a lot to damage them.
And yet, they ARE indexed to only go together one way. And no, the cancel cam with the horn contact does not spin 360, at least not on the 1969-up columns. It is keyed to the lock plate that only goes on the shaft one way.
also forgot to mention, the Turn signals don't cancel, you can hear it click but t doesn't cancel. Not sure if it has anything to do with the steering wheel being off center
also forgot to mention, the Turn signals don't cancel, you can hear it click but t doesn't cancel. Not sure if it has anything to do with the steering wheel being off center
It's possible. You need to go through the procedure that Joe posted above in post #8 and see where the issue is.
DO NOT "pop the wheel off and spin it". The GM steering shaft pieces are keyed so that they only go together in one clocking position. You have to be a really ham-fisted gorilla to force them together at any clocking other that 180 deg out, and even that requires you to force two different diameter bolts in the rag joint into incorrect holes. You can't clock the steering wheel incorrectly on the shaft because the tube for the horn contact only fits into the steering wheel hub one way.
This is really very simple. Turn the steering wheel all the way to one side, count the turns to full lock on the other side, then come back half way. THIS IS WHAT MATTERS. Pull off the horn button. The upper end of the steering shaft has a scribe mark that should be at 12 o'clock with the wheel straight ahead. If it isn't, the tie rods are adjusted incorrectly. Fix that. DO NOT randomly reclock parts of the steering shaft (which you won't be able to do easily anyway).
Thanks I will try that. If that's the case, would an alignment fix the problem?
Thanks I will try that. If that's the case, would an alignment fix the problem?
A proper alignment should have done this the first time. As I've said above, if the alignment is correct, fixing this doesn't require a trip to the alignment shop (or the expense). Your call.
so the turn signals don't cancel.hmm has the wheel been off before to fix that issue and not put back on correctly??also you don't mention if this is a standard column,a tilt column or a tilt-tele?
so the turn signals don't cancel.hmm has the wheel been off before to fix that issue and not put back on correctly??also you don't mention if this is a standard column,a tilt column or a tilt-tele?
I could be wrong, but I don't think a tilt-only was available in the first gen Toronados. Choices were limited to standard or tilt-tele.
so the turn signals don't cancel.hmm has the wheel been off before to fix that issue and not put back on correctly??also you don't mention if this is a standard column,a tilt column or a tilt-tele?
Its a standard non-tilt steering wheel. I've never had it off since I got it
Maybe you did not understand my post. First gen toronados (66-70) could have standard non-tilt columns and they could also have tilt-telescopic columns but I do not think you could get tilt only (as in tilt without telescopic) like you would find in a cutlass. I have never seen one in a car and I don't think any tilt only columns are shown in the assembly manual.
It seems every car I work on has this wrong and it is so important.
Joe P is right again. Another reason to have the steering gear at the exact center is that there is a high point in the gears for a better on center feel. When you rebuild a box you have set the bearing preload at this point.
As stated if everything is not properly aligned at the top of the column the signals wont cancel properly.
I can't say for the Toronado, but on the F-85 you can start with putting the steering gear in the center by assuring the pitman arm is facing directly rearward. Then install the rag joint and align it like this:
The studs and nuts need to be dead horizontal. Then the notches in the steering wheel will line up properly with the top of the column. After that if the wheel is off center I'd take it to a professional alignment shop.
Another reason to have the steering gear at the exact center is that there is a high point in the gears for a better on center feel. When you rebuild a box you have set the bearing preload at this point.
Add to that the fact that if you have a variable ratio box, the ratio changes as you turn the wheel (the gear teeth are not equally spaced).
[/quote]I can't say for the Toronado, but on the F-85 you can start with putting the steering gear in the center by assuring the pitman arm is facing directly rearward. Then install the rag joint and align it like this:
The studs and nuts need to be dead horizontal. Then the notches in the steering wheel will line up properly with the top of the column. After that if the wheel is off center I'd take it to a professional alignment shop.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the 100% certain way to center the steering box is to accurately count the turns from stop to stop and then come back half way. Note in the drawings above that the fasteners on the rag joint are different sizes - that's why the lockwashers and nuts have different part numbers. As I've regularly pointed out, this hardware only goes together ONE WAY. Yeah, I'm sure some ham-fisted gorilla can assemble it incorrectly. Also note in the second drawing the note about aligning the marks on the shaft and wheel. I still don't understand why people are proud of the fact that they do stuff half-fast.
Thanks for clarifying all that Joe; maybe I got a lazy
This is a great thread with some really good information, and I also wonder if I got too far off topic:
Originally Posted by sgolds
66 Toro, I've had the car for about 1.5 years, never got to do an alignment yet because I've been busy with other things (and so is every mechanic in my area )
The steering wheel is turned about 3/4 to the left when going straight. Car otherwise goes fairly straight down the road.
my question is, What kind of pothole can possibly cause something like that? It's been that way the whole time I've had it. Any possible other causes?
It may not be so much the size of the pothole as the quality of your front end components. If you have something like an A arm bushing going bad and hit a good sized pot hole it can finish off the bushing, and that would throw the front end geometry off causing your condition. In fact my guess is, if they have not been replaced in the last 20 years, that you need all new bushings. Rubber is not an exact science and, well, that entropy thing . . . .
If you actually some day get around to having an alignment done ( ) the common practice is for the shop to inspect your A arm bushings, ball joints, tie rods, center link, etc. (my GF's Civic went to a shop once and they would not do an alignment on it because it had 2 broken springs and badly worn bushings). They will size up your front end components for you; if they can't center the wheel with an alignment then have a look at your column/steering wheel alignment.
I do not think you could get tilt only (as in tilt without telescopic) like you would find in a cutlass. I have never seen one in a car and I don't think any tilt only columns are shown in the assembly manual.
My 69 is a tilt-only car. I've seen three others, all same Platinum/black VT and black cloth Y69 interior, and all 12C build date. Have often wondered if they were part of a regional sales promotion.
Per the 1966 SPECS booklet, RPO N33 tilt-only was not available on the 1966 cars. RPO N37 tilt/tele was the only option in model years 1966-68. Glenn's 1969 is the first year that N33 and N37 were both available options. Curiously, N37 Tilt/Tele was available without restriction, but N33 Tilt-only was not available with D55 console. Go figure.
)
) the common practice is for the shop to inspect your A arm bushings, ball joints, tie rods, center link, etc. (my GF's Civic went to a shop once and they would not do an alignment on it because it had 2 broken springs and badly worn bushings). They will size up your front end components for you; if they can't center the wheel with an alignment then have a look at your column/steering wheel alignment.
