Daniel Marsh

Help! I am desperate! I have a '67 Toronado and the 425 is locked up. I am swapping a 455 into its place but am having a couple of slight issues. First the oil pump pick up is special, as am I, but I just figured that out. Second, which balancer do I use, the one from the 425 which is very thin or the 455 typical balancer? Third, which pulleys do I use? Keep in mind I must use the Toronado Power Steering pump because it has a cooler. The 455 is from a 71 olds 98 and the water pump is just a bit taller. This brings me to my question of which water pump? I feel as though I am making this harder than it needs to be, but that is what I do...... I am at a stopping point till we figure this out so PLEASE HELP!!

No, I am not selling the 425 sorry......

Daniel Marsh

O.K. so, if the answer is to use everything from the 455 here is the next problem with that. The inlet on the Toronado water pump from the '67 engine is 2". So, to be able to buy a radiator hose that will work I must have a 2" inlet at the water pump. If not, and I use the pump that came with the 455 what lower radiator hose am I going to use??

droldsmorland

You will need the intake, exhaust manifolds, and accessory drive of the front of the 425 to put on to the 455.
Keep tract of all the spaces washers etc they need to go on to the 455 the same way they came off the 425.
You may have a water pump compatibility problem. The snout length could be shorter or linger so compare. If different use the water pump of the 425 or the pulleys wont line up. Use the 455 harmonic damper.
Install the oil pan and pick up tube off the 425 onto the 455. Be sure to tack the pick up tube so no danger of it coming lose. Also install any baffles or crank scrapers from the 425 to the 455.

edit. You can use the complete accessory drive from the 455 just dont mix n match. IMO Id use all the 425 accessories. This will eliminate the radiator hose issue.

Fun71

I agree. Keeping the 425 water pump, brackets, and pulleys will make life easier.

Daniel Marsh

I must use the balancer for the 455 true.
The water pump is shorter from the 425 but has the large inlet that I need
You cannot use the two together the pulleys will not work out.

Take into consideration what I said about the diameter of the inlet at the water pump. The factory 425 pump is 2" and the 455 from the "98" is 1.75" It must be 2" or I won't be able to get a lower radiator hose.

So, if I use everything from the 455 which would work out fine, which water pump do I use for the correct height of the hub and inlet size for the radiator hose?

Or, does anyone know of a water pump that has the 2" inlet and correct height for this?

Octania

You are making this too complicated.
The WP and pulleys must match
where can you get a matching set?
Oh, yeah, FROM THE TORO 425!
Use that WP with its 2" inlet and it will mate the pulleys just like it did on the other engine. The Balancer will look different but its pulley mtg location is the same, so the effect is visual only.

Perhaps you do not WANT to use a "used" water pump? Is that the problem?
In that case go to the store and get a 66-67 Toro rebuilt WP.

If you want a factory casting, then get yours redone at waterpumpman.com or whatever.... or buy from one of us collector nuts. Several candidates will have the correct length and inlet nipple. I suggest you request my WP database via email if you want to learn all the variations.

Chris
RocketScience443@hotmail.com
Be sure to change "443" to the obvious correct number before using the above. [altered to ward off robo scammers seeking eddresses]

MDchanic

I think you'd be better off using all of the accessories from the 425, as Toros have a bit of a tight engine compartment layout compared to other cars, and it'd suck to get it all together and find that one little part taps against something else.

If you don't want to use the water pump that's currently on the Toro engine, then just buy a new one at the auto parts store, or through one of the on-line suppliers.

You DO have to use the 455 balancer with the 455, though.

- Eric

edit: beat me to it, Chris!

67442nut

QUESTION:
If he uses all the 425 pulleys, brackets, water pump, etc. on the 455 and not the 455 balancer,
will all the pulleys still line up?
Will the front face of the 455 balancer be in the same place, once installed, as the front of the 425 balancer?
Not trying to "nit pick", just wondering if this is an issue.

Fun71

Chris covered this already:

Fun71

All 1970 and earlier water pumps used the larger 2" hose nipple. 1971 and up used the smaller 1.75" size. There are 3 different snout lengths (5.1", 5.56", and 6") and I think the 5.56 is non-AC, 6" is with AC, and the 5.1 was a mid-60s application(?) that I can't remember much about.

MDchanic

To re-reiterate:
Yes, they will all line up.
Yes, the front faces are in the same place.

- Eric

Daniel Marsh

Hey you guys, a million thanks! Once you guys said that the face of the balancer would be in the same place either way it all became clear. I will be using everything from the 425 and all will work.

Another issue I had was the correct oil pump pickup, and Melling still makes a Toronado only pickup screen for a short while. If anyone needs one it is part number 22-FS-1 and they are getting very scarce......

The other problem was the gasket for the oil filter housing. It is Toronado specific as well and is only available in gasket sets not by itself. So, buy the "conversion" gasket set and not a timing set or you will be searching for the loose gasket they don't sell separate. It is not in the timing set only a full engine set or a conversion set.

Again, thanks a ton I just may get to drive this car this year before the dreaded white death......

Run to Rund

Use the balancer and flex plate from the 455, and everything else from the 425.

Daniel Marsh

So I have been driving the Toronado for two days with no problems at all and it is sweet!! My question is, why can I not put either dipstick in the engine? The original 425 Toronado stick will go in with too much force, and the 455 one will not. It is as if I have hit a wall. What do I buy or what do I do? The 455 is from a 71 Olds 98 and that is the tube with the current engine.

droldsmorland

So your saying the original 455 dip stick will not go into the original 455 tube? Did you have the pan off of the 455 for any reason?

Daniel Marsh

Yes, the 455 pan was off as I am working on a Toronado and had to use the Toronado 425 oil pan.

MDchanic

You need to use the Toro dipstick with the Toro dipstick tube.

The tubes were different lengths, as well as the dipsticks (just like with people ).

- Eric

Daniel Marsh

So, how the hell do I do that with the engine in etc...? I am not going through all of that again just yet. I hope just an exhaust manifold off and on to get out of the way. Is all it takes??

MDchanic

And just to clarify, dipstick tube lengths:

'67 Toronado - 17 29/32"
'71 non-Toronado 455 - 11 3/8"

You can probably get it by pulling the manifold.

There are a number of threads on here about it.

- Eric

hullinger

The answers from Eric, Chris and the Doctor were great; clear, detailed and timely along with the right amount of guidance. This is exactly what makes this forum so great. I tip my hat to you all.

Chris

MDchanic

Gosh. Thanks.

- Eric

Daniel Marsh

So, if they are matched then why cant I put the dipstick that came out of the 455 back in the 455 it came out of with it's existing tube? I cannot put the dipstick that came out of the "98" back in the tube it came in??

MDchanic

You got me. Something's different inside.

Did you have the engine apart at all? Any chance something is in the way?

Remember that the Toro and non-Toro oil pans are different from each other, and, as far as I know, the dipsticks need to read at different levels.
Also the dipstick lengths are different for the two different motors.

I have not had a Toro myself, so I cannot talk about the specific differences in configuration between the two oil pans.

- Eric

Octania

Any dipstick should "fit into" any tube- to an extent. The indicator may be far too long or too short, or just right, depending on the combination you have.
It is possible that you are putting a long indicator into a short tube and it is bottoming out on the oil pan before the handle gets to the top of the guide tube?

You *should* be able to use the 455's tube and indicator, as a set...
or the 425's set, as a set.

There is a very slight like 3mm difference in the ADD mark between Toro and RWD indicators. There are LARGE like 1 to 2" differences in the distance from FULL mark to where handle contacts top of tube among various indicators. Since the top of the oil should be pretty much at the same location with respect to the engine block for all the similar engines, the FULL mark ideally ends up in pretty much the same place with any proper MATCHING indicator/ guide tube set.

Also, the 425 guide tube does not have a larger expanded top like the 1968+ tubes do- the pre-68 indicator seals with a felt washer.

It is indeed possible to pull the tube by say moving the manifold a bit for wiggle room then inserting a bolt or such into the top of the tube and clamping as hard as you can with locking pliers and hammering or slide hammering it up and out. This may destroy the tube, so maybe first you should take stock of what you have, cite the obvious PN on the indicators, etc.

I have a guide to sticks and tubes and what works with which, written on cardboard in the garage... used to be on ROP.com I think, but after so many crashes, I gave up on re-entering the info.

twintracks

If your Toro exhaust manifolds have been decked too many times, it will actually squash the dip stick tube when bolted up. The space is pretty close to begin with. But that should be pretty easy to see. Mine are nearly there.

Daniel Marsh

O.k. now we may be on to something. I can tell you the engine had never been apart until my swap so no machine work done. I just simply resealed and did a chain etc. I did however add exhaust manifold gaskets at the block. Could this have distorted the tube maybe?

Either stick gets to the bend and that is all. With too much force the Toro stick will go all the way in and seat. I am afraid to pull out and try again though as I have zero luck and "it" will happen to me whatever "it" is....

Octania

Turn the indicator to various positions while inserting, perhaps?

Daniel Marsh

You can't there is a flat spot in the tube about a 1/4" down which I believe is all Olds to orient the stick as it is put in???

twintracks

Make sure that the tube is on the correct side of the gasket. If it's wrong, the tube will get bent and squashed when the manifold is tightened up.