The '78 gains a stablemate

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Old May 15, 2021 | 09:53 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by 77toronado
I like the reflection of the wheel covers on the wall, in your door glass. How artistic!!
Thanks. I set up the photo that way (not really).

Originally Posted by 77toronado
Just curious - does this one have the rollers on the striker like was discussed in another thread??
No, no bushings/whatever on either door striker.

Here's the driver's side. Doesn't look like there ever was one. Both doors close just fine.




Old May 28, 2021 | 03:16 PM
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Inched forward on progress. Finally got around to doing the roof rail weatherstrip on the driver's side. No issues other than getting the old stuff off. I did find a tool to help with this.






Door closes fine.




We were traveling last weekend and were at the 2nd annual Goodguys Salt Lake Nationals in Salt Lake City. In the swap meet area, there was one of those vendors who has every tool you could ever imagine plus some you've never thought of. I bought a few things, including this nifty, dangerous-looking under-lip scraper that made it much easier to gouge out the old weatherstripping from under the lip on the chrome trim piece. Well worth the $8 it cost.





I also replaced both speedometer cables (from the transmission to the cruise control controller and from the controller to the speedometer) because there was a speedo cable squeak. No photos of this, but one more small but significant step forward. It's always a bit of effort to get the cable through the grommet in the firewall, but I finally persuaded it. I had the speedometer cluster partially apart to replace the clear plastic lens, so I just further disassembled it to get at the cable and disconnect it from the speedometer/odometer head.

As far as the lens, there was some drip stains on the original one, and they didn't wash off with windex. Not sure what they are, but they etched the plastic. I was able to get the one from the '78 our moderator, 2blu442, is parting out. It's a bit scratched, but those scratches kind of disappear when the lens is in place, and it looks a whole lot better than those stains.

Here's a photo of the stains/smudges on the old one. Someone had tried to clean it up, and they only made it worse.






As far as the reupholstering of the armrests, still waiting on that. I did stop by the shop today to see if there was any progress, and there actually was. They have replaced the foam under the vinyl on one panel and are about to do the other. Then it's just the vinyl and they should be done. But I was glad to see progress, and I hope I'll have them some time next week.
Old May 28, 2021 | 04:07 PM
  #123  
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Well done on the weatherstrip. Good to see that yours has nice corner with no seam splitting issues. So no adjustments of the stainless strip for the seal to get the glass to seat correctly?
Brave man for taking the dash fascia out and replacing it. Fortunately I don't have that problem.
Really keen to see your re-upholstered armrests. Be sure to post pics as soon as you get them back.
Old May 28, 2021 | 04:20 PM
  #124  
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Taking the speedometer cluster apart is really quite easy. Just remove three screws along the top and pull toward you to take out the plastic lens and then four screws to remove the trim piece behind that. Takes less than five minutes. Now you're able to get at the bulbs if needed. To remove the speedometer cluster, there are just four hex-head bolts. Removing the cluster pulls the speedometer head off of the speedo cable. To disconnect the speedo cable completely, just remove two more bolts and pull plastic piece the end of the speedo cable fits into toward you. The speedo head just fits into an opening where the speedo cable is mounted behind it. It's really all amazingly simple, and both of my Toros have had dirty lenses and squeaky speedometer cables, so I've replaced all of this on both cars now.

Yes, I will post photos of the redone armrests as soon as I get them back. I'm itching to reinstall them so I can get the doors back together. Yes, the car can be driven, but it's kind of annoying have the power lock and window cables plus the remote mirror cable all just dangling there and getting tangled in things all the time!

Yes, no adjustment necessary with the chrome strip when attaching the new weatherstripping. It just sort of rolls-in to that edge that one has to clean out the old rubber from, and it pretty much adheres itself. The only places where there was any weatherstrip adhesive originally, and thus the only places where I put any now, are at each end where the little tacks hold the ends in place plus at each corner, where a little adhesive is dabbed in behind the rubber.
Old Jun 3, 2021 | 03:45 PM
  #125  
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Need some help from my Toro buddies.

In the photo below, note the circled vacuum port, which, on my '77, is not connected to anything. I believe something from the HVAC system connects there, but I don't see a dangling vacuum line anywhere. There is a piece of vacuum hose still attached there, so something has apparently broken or been cut off. I looked at my '78 for comparison, and that port is attached to a line coming from the area of the vacuum reservoir ball, so I assume it's supposed to be the source of vacuum to operate the vent controls inside the car. If anyone has the service manuals, this is shown on page 1C-9, figure 1C-15 in the '77 manual. The same figure is Figure 1C-16 on page 1C-10 in the '78 manual. Both figures, though, are for the 88 and 98, not for the Toro. There is no similar vacuum hose diagram for the Toronado Tempmatic in either manual, but I'm guessing that might be because the connections are the same since a Tempmatic is a Tempmatic?

But my '78 has the Tempmatic A/C whereas the '77 has the base "Custom" A/C, and I don't know what the differences are in terms of vacuum connections. There is no vacuum hose diagram for the Custom A/C anywhere in the '77 or '78 manuals that I can find.

If anyone's '77 or '78 Toro has the Custom A/C system, and these hoses are intact, can you tell me what should be connected to this port?

Thank you.


Old Jun 4, 2021 | 10:37 AM
  #126  
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My 77 has the Tempmatic system. Hopefully, I'll be with it this weekend. I'll take pics and see if it has that same connection, even with the automatic set up.
Old Jun 4, 2021 | 12:44 PM
  #127  
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Thanks, but I've fixed the problem. It turns out there was a dangling vacuum line hidden under everything. Part of the issue with these HVAC-controlling vacuum lines is that they're not like most of the lines you see under the hood. Most are fairly large diameter inside and out and are fairly obviously vacuum lines. But these HVAC-controlling lines are as thin as maybe a 1/8" drill bit with maybe a 1/16" ID. They look more like electric wires than they do vacuum lines, so I tend to overlook them. Anyway, found the line that should be plugged into that manifold port, and it turns out that the little piece of rubber on the port was NOT a piece of torn-off hose but actually where the small diameter line plugs in. It was just a matter of pushing it in.


On a separate issue, fingers-crossed, but I'm supposed to be able to pick up my re-covered armrests later this afternoon. I'll post photos as soon as I have them.

Old Jun 4, 2021 | 07:37 PM
  #128  
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Got the panels back this evening, and I think they look fabulous. There is stitching around the edges of the armrest that was not there originally, but I think the upholsterer did a great job of integrating everything. I only had time this evening to install one of them, on the passenger side, before it was dinnertime and then we had to run some errands and stop at the ice cream stand and you know how it is. I'll get the driver's side installed tomorrow.


Before and after, passenger side. I think they did a good job of matching the colors, too, especially the new vinyl to the pull strap. The upper panel is original and has faded some after 44 years, especially along the upper-facing edge. But that's just "patina" now!







A closer view of the stitch work. Panel not installed yet.






Driver's side. Not installed yet.







Just as a reminder, and so you don't have to scroll up, here's what the original driver's side looked like. It's nice not having to rest one's arm on shipping tape.



Last edited by jaunty75; Jun 4, 2021 at 07:41 PM.
Old Jun 5, 2021 | 09:39 AM
  #129  
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That is unbelievably awesome looking!!!

They did a fantastic job of matching and fabricating. That stitch line looks like it should have been there originally.

I'm glad you got your vacuum line mystery solved, too.
Old Jun 5, 2021 | 09:44 AM
  #130  
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Got the driver's side installed this morning.






I have to agree about the stitching. It actually looks better than the original.
Old Jun 5, 2021 | 09:54 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by 77toronado
I'm glad you got your vacuum line mystery solved, too.
It helps to have two versions of essentially the same thing! ("How does this part go in again? Oh yeah, let's go look at the other car.")
Old Jun 5, 2021 | 11:17 AM
  #132  
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Wow, a great job on the door panels.
Old Jun 5, 2021 | 02:48 PM
  #133  
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Absolutely GORGEOUS. You're lucky to have such a talented upholstery guy.

Originally Posted by jaunty75
Got the panels back this evening, and I think they look fabulous. There is stitching around the edges of the armrest that was not there originally, but I think the upholsterer did a great job of integrating everything. I only had time this evening to install one of them, on the passenger side, before it was dinnertime and then we had to run some errands and stop at the ice cream stand and you know how it is. I'll get the driver's side installed tomorrow.


Before and after, passenger side. I think they did a good job of matching the colors, too, especially the new vinyl to the pull strap. The upper panel is original and has faded some after 44 years, especially along the upper-facing edge. But that's just "patina" now!







A closer view of the stitch work. Panel not installed yet.






Driver's side. Not installed yet.







Just as a reminder, and so you don't have to scroll up, here's what the original driver's side looked like. It's nice not having to rest one's arm on shipping tape.


Old Jun 6, 2021 | 07:39 AM
  #134  
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So they just did the lower sections? Was it just the armrest vinyl or the carpet section too? Hard to tell from the photos. Can you supply a name for the guy? I’ve got the same interior with the same issue.
Old Jun 6, 2021 | 07:52 AM
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They did just the lower sections. The upper portions, while sun-faded along the tops, were otherwise fine, and I saw no need to have them done as well.

As I said earlier, I think the re-done armrests look better than the originals because of the stitching, and the reason I say that is because the upper panel around the door pull strap has stitching as well, and the new, lower-panel stitching more or less matches that.


All of the vinyl in this photo is new. The top armrest itself, sides bottom. The carpeted portion is original. They removed it to attach the vinyl and then reattached it. Removing it is just a matter of bending up staples and then bending them back down again when re-attaching..





The place where I had this done is called Richie's Upholstery.

https://richiesupholstery.business.site/

Pay no attention to the "updates" just below the big logo about them possibly not being open. I don't know why they don't update that as the shop is very much open and quite busy. I dealt mostly with a fellow named Brock, although he's not the upholsterer. I also had some dealings with Richie himself, mostly just giving me updates on the progress.

Don't expect a quick turnaround.

Last edited by jaunty75; Jun 6, 2021 at 07:54 AM.
Old Jun 6, 2021 | 02:36 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by jaunty75
It helps to have two versions of essentially the same thing! ("How does this part go in again? Oh yeah, let's go look at the other car.")
That is exactly how I got my cruise control issues worked out. By comparing the vacuum connections on the module to my Dad's car, I could see they had two of them reversed. Worked perfectly afterwards.
Not many things you can fix in 5 minutes and make you that happy.

Those door panels look great
Old Jun 7, 2021 | 03:34 PM
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Got another question, this one for the '77 owners specifically.

I rebuilt the carburetor on mine today. No issues, and I have it reinstalled on the engine, but I haven't tried starting it yet because I'm waiting on new choke parts that are supposed to arrive by UPS today.

Anyway, I noticed something I hadn't seen before. I know the '77s have some kind of ignition system that involves some kind of sensor near where the timing marks are. I never noticed before today, though, a thick wire running from a wiring harness down through the space between the water and power steering pumps. It's not fastened down in any way or routed in any particularly neat way. It's just there.

Here's a photo of it. (Yellow arrows)

Is this wire supposed to be routed like this? Seems like it's kind of loosely in there, and, while it can't get caught up in the fan, it still seems awfully close to spinning things and hot things.






Speaking of hot things, I noticed this very disturbing thing. The insulation has either rotted or burnt away in the area down below what's easily viewable. This certainly can't be something I'd want to leave unattended to.






I found where this wire connects down below, and I can get my hand on it, but I can't disconnect it from where it's attached. At least, not by a simple tug or twist like you might remove a spark plug wire. I'm guessing it's securely fastened for good reason, but I'd like to disconnect it and at least re-wrap the areas where the insulation has deteriorated away. The situation is worse than what can be seen in the photo above, but most of the damage is well down and not easily viewable. But you can sure feel it.





Here's the rebuilt carb, by the way. Thing of beauty, ain't it?

This is third carb I've rebuilt in my time, and it still amazes me just what a complicated piece of machinery, with all kinds of interconnected levers and things balanced on top of other things and springs and rods and check *****, a carburetor truly is. Yet, in spite of all this, it's still not much better than putting a coffee can with holes punched in the bottom on top of the intake manifold and filling that with gas.

I didn't spend hours cleaning every nook and cranny of the exterior (it's hidden under the air cleaner, right?), but I cleaned out as well as I could inside and replaced all the parts that come in the rebuild kit. There was some crud lining the bottom of the float bowl, and I got all of that out.





Old Jun 7, 2021 | 03:44 PM
  #138  
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Here's a "before" photo of the carb when it was still on the engine. Nothing seriously wrong or anything, but, given the condition of some of the gaskets when I took it apart, if it was ever rebuilt sometime in the last 44 years, it had to have been some time ago.





Here's the main problem with the choke. I noticed a broken heat stove pipe, which renders the choke inoperative. This goes a long way in explaining the starting and idling issues this car has. I'm hoping the rebuild and the replacement of these parts makes for a much more pleasant engine.


Old Jun 8, 2021 | 08:33 AM
  #139  
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Installed the new choke hardware, reinstalled the carb on the engine, and fired it up. Started nicely and runs well.

Here's the carb just before startup. The choke stove piping is not available specifically for these cars, so I bought from Fusick pipes that were close. The in-engine, U-shaped part is pretty standard as is the smaller, P-shaped tube that connects to the choke housing. The other pipe doesn't really matter so much as long is it fits into the stove opening and can be routed to not interfere with anything as it connects to the carb with a vacuum hose, which allows flexibility in orienting that pipe. I did also connect that rear vacuum pull-off to manifold vacuum before start-up.







Here's a quick video of the engine running on the rebuilt carb. I should have put the camera on it before starting it for the first time, but I didn't think of it until too late.

Old Jun 8, 2021 | 08:48 PM
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Jaunty,

That cable is running down to the crankshaft pickup sensor for the MISAR system on the front of the engine. On your '78, that part was reengineered and moved to the inside of the distributor itself. In '77, it was a notched disk on the front of the engine with a pickup. In fact, adjusting the position of that pickup is how you're supposed to set the timing, according to the factory manual (after grounding out a specific pin on the controller near the glove box - you already know that). I wouldn't mess with that pickup or that end of the cable. If you're set on disconnecting it, I'll dig through the '77 shop manual tomorrow to see if they have details on how that cable disconnects.

The cable on mine seems to be held in place with a loose loop of zip tie hooked to the alternator bracket. I'm attaching some pictures showing where it's attached. I also took a few pictures while I was replacing the water pump as it exposed all of those pieces nicely that usually hide behind the power steering pump and the alternator. I didn't undo anything holding that cable down to any other part.

The cable is the yellow arrows. The zip tie is the red arrow. In the first picture, you'll also see your old friend the temperature sensor, too.




Here's what it looked like behind the power steering pump. Again, the yellow arrows are pointing to the cable. There wasn't anything securing it back in this area.




Here's a picture where everything was in place




I believe the '77 and '78 Toronados were the only cars this was ever installed on. And since each year had a different means of rotation pickup, each one is unique, too.

Here's a link to an image to text version of an article from 1976 about it.


Old Jun 9, 2021 | 11:52 AM
  #141  
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Thanks!! Those photos are excellent. I've saved them. I'll at least clip the wire out of the way like it is on your car.

I do plan to replace the water pump, which will make that wire easier to get to, and I'll at least wrap the damaged parts with electrical tape if not something stronger and thicker.

Old Jun 9, 2021 | 12:05 PM
  #142  
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I moved on to the rear brakes today. When I put the newer tires on shortly after getting the car, I tried to remove the rear drums and had no luck. Today I put the car back up on jack stands and tried again. I sprayed PB Blaster into the gap between the back of the drums and the back plate, and I tapped all around with a metal hammer (I tried a rubber mallet last time). Both finally broke loose. Hurray!

I immediately learned some things. I'm wondering if these rear brakes have ever been apart before today. On both sides, the shoes were worn to nearly nothing. On the driver's side, I found a problem. The front shoe return spring was broken and sitting in the bottom of the drum. I had noticed some resistance when turning that wheel, and now I found that it was because the front shoe was never being pulled back by the return spring.

Here's some photos of the left side job.


As it appeared when I removed the drum. No front return spring. Everything covered in what could easily be 44 years of crud.





For a while I thought I would try rotating the star wheel to free up the drums, but that would have been impossible. This thing is rusted solid.




The broken spring.





After my rebuild. This is now the fourth car in my time that I have overhauled the rear brakes, and every time I do it, it's been just long enough that I completely forget the process. But it quickly comes back, and the best rule of thumb is disassemble only one side at a time so you can keep running over to the other side of the car to see how it's supposed to go back together. Yes, you can take photos, but seeing it live is faster.




With the new drum as well. I had to stop after this to do other things, and I'll get the right side done tomorrow.


Old Jun 9, 2021 | 04:51 PM
  #143  
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While you're at it, I'd give those rear hubs a look-see - at a minimum, they require a good cleaning up to match the nice new drums. Probably the bearings are good, but I'd still want to them a good dose of fresh grease
Old Jun 9, 2021 | 05:33 PM
  #144  
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One of the best days was when I broke down and bought a decent set of drum brakes tools that included the little cup on the handle for installing the caps on those hold down springs!

Nice work! Come to think of it, the last time I did drum brakes was on the back of my Dad's '77 Toronado. It had been sitting for many years due to his illness. I wanted to get it running for him again, to go for a few last rides in his car. Word of advice to anyone in this situation - DO NOT KEEP PUTTING IT OFF. I got it back on the road about 2 1/2 months before he passed away.

Anyway, here's why I had to do the brakes. The passenger rear wheel wouldn't turn. It turns out that the wheel cylinder on that wheel had decided to no longer hold brake fluid. The leaking fluid ate at the forward brake shoe and effectively glued it to the drum!! Now THAT was fun to get off the car. The picture below has an arrow showing where the front of the shoe was melted from the backing plate.



Of course the drum was a mess with all of that melted shoe material stuck to it. I didn't know if I could find another drum, and there wasn't anything wrong with the rest of the surface. What to do?

A friend with a Shopsmith came to the rescue! We chucked the drum onto the lathe, spun it up to a little bit of speed, and then cleaned up the drum with a piece of handheld sandpaper. Yeah, I know - probably 20 OSHA violations in this picture.




While looking for these pictures, I found a couple of pictures from the front of his engine. I'm not sure which cable or hose is being routed into that hole in the upper alternator bracket, but the crank pickup cable is zip tied to that cable, instead of to the bracket, like on my car.

I don't know if he did that himself, or not. I know he did some work to the car when he got it, but most of it was still bone stock. I put it this way - it still has a set of properly date coded Packard Electric sparkplug wires on it.






I hope this gives you a couple of options on how to fasten it down.


Last edited by 77toronado; Jun 9, 2021 at 05:35 PM.
Old Jun 9, 2021 | 07:26 PM
  #145  
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Jaunty a lot of progress in the few days since my last visit.
Those door panels look fantastic and that stitching looks like a great match to the door pulls. That is how the car should have done in the first place.
As 77Toronado indicated the wire running down by the PS reservoir is the for the MISAR crank sensor which was mounted just below the PS reservoir on the 77 Toro. In 78 they moved it into the distributor.
Removal is supposed to be the same as the upper temp sensor (pinch and pull) but I couldn't get mime off either. All the PS fluid that was on the wire and around the connection after 40+ years seemed to have fused it all together. But I have no cable tie for it and no burn marks from hot and spinning things
Sorry no meaningful pictures from mine as I replaced my distributor with a mech/vac unit and disabled the MISAR system.
Regarding the brakes that is both ugly and scary. Good thing you have replaced them. Looks like they have not been service in quite some time. I have never in my life seen pads so badly worn.
Old Jun 9, 2021 | 07:44 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by torotoyguy
While you're at it, I'd give those rear hubs a look-see - at a minimum, they require a good cleaning up to match the nice new drums
Not a bad idea. Anyone done this? Any special tools required to reinstall bearings?
Old Jun 9, 2021 | 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 77toronado
One of the best days was when I broke down and bought a decent set of drum brakes tools that included the little cup on the handle for installing the caps on those hold down springs!
I know what you mean. I have the tools below.

This is sort of a universal tool. The end on the lower left is for removing the return springs. Just position over the spring and rotate until it pops off. The end on the lower right is for putting them back on.

The upper end of this is for putting in other springs like the one that goes next to the adjuster with the star wheel, although I found it not too difficult to put that on with just a pair of pliers.





This is for removing those retaining springs on each side. Very handy. Just press and twist. It's supposed to be good for putting them back on, but I like using pliers because you can see what you're doing and know that you've rotated that retaining disk 90 degrees once it's pushed over the retaining pin.







Originally Posted by 77toronado
The leaking fluid ate at the forward brake shoe and effectively glued it to the drum!!
I'm impressed you were able to get the drum off at all. I've seen situations where the only way to get the drum off is to clip off the back end of the retaining pins and just pull off the whole brake assembly with it still stuck to the drum.

Originally Posted by 77toronado
I didn't know if I could find another drum
I've found them to be readily available for these cars. A bit of an advantage having a later model car.


Old Jun 9, 2021 | 08:18 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by ByronF
Those door panels look fantastic and that stitching looks like a great match to the door pulls. That is how the car should have done in the first place.
I've had the same thoughts. They look better every time I open a door.


Originally Posted by ByronF
Regarding the brakes that is both ugly and scary. Good thing you have replaced them. Looks like they have not been service in quite some time. I have never in my life seen pads so badly worn.
As I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that today is the first time the brake drums have been removed since the car was new. The shoes were worn to nearly nothing, which I've not seen before, either. I'd say they were about 10 miles away from having the rivets start to scrape the drums.

I haven't thrown anything away. Are there any markings on the old shoes that would indicate that they're original? Part number or something?
Old Jun 9, 2021 | 08:32 PM
  #149  
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Here's some close-ups of the old shoes from the left side.



The front shoe was evenly worn all along the length. This is the shoe for which the return spring was missing.






The rear shoe was not worn evenly, being thicker near the bottom (toward the left below) and thinner near the top. I'm guessing this is because the frozen adjuster didn't permit the lower part of the shoe to be pushed outward as the upper part of the shoe wore away, so the upper part bore the brunt of the braking.







The rear shoe was also an unhappy camper in this regard. There is a nice, even gouge in the center of the pad towards the bottom end of the shoe. I don't know what caused this. Perhaps the loose spring was caught somewhere and did some gouging?






Here's the right side, still untouched. Things look happier here. All springs are intact, and the shoes, while well worn, are worn evenly all around (and are so thin you can barely make them out). I took this photo with the flash, so that's why the brighter lighting.





Old Jun 10, 2021 | 09:23 AM
  #150  
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I have a spare set of NOS Delco brake shoes (front) for my '66, and they have a 1/2" wide groove cut into the linings of the primary shoes, about 1/16" deep and the full 11.5" length of the linings. Interestingly, I also have a NORS set of Bendix linings, and they don't have any grooves but (apparently) instead use a reduced primary lining length of 9". The secondary linings of both are 11.5" long. (I don't know the purpose of the groove, since it obviously doesn't last the full life of the linings.)

As to wheel bearings, In my experience, if you need to replace bearings, the old races are pushed out using a brass/steel rod and hammer from the inside of the other end of the hub. Although a press might be better, I've used a hammer and large diameter socket to gently push the new races into place by working my way around the circumference of the race - the bearings themselves are slip fits on the "stem" of the hub.

Hope some of this is helpful.
Old Jun 10, 2021 | 01:07 PM
  #151  
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Thanks. I did pry off the dust caps and took a look. I saw lots of grease that appeared to be in very good condition, so I decided to leave well enough alone. This car did have the front wheel bearings serviced about a year ago, and I'm wondering if they did the rears some time in there as well.

The thing about replacing the wheel bearings is that it is unrelated to the brakes. Other than removing the drums, no other disassembly of the brakes is required to get at and replace the bearings. I think I'll let sleeping dogs lie for now.



I did finish the right side today. No surprises here, and the shoes looked pretty evenly worn.







I'm also replacing the master cylinder and vacuum booster. Not because they don't work, but because they're quite rusty and could also easily be 44 years old, so why not.



Here's what things look like currently. Would you bring this home to your mother?






Since I took the above photo, I've removed the old M/C and booster and installed the new booster. Remind me how much fun it is to get at the four bolts holding the booster to the firewall that you get to behind the brake pedal and steering column by bending your arms in ways they were never meant to bend. But I got the old one out and the new one in. Then I noticed it was about 105 degrees here, so it was time to call it a day (I do all my car work at this time of year between about 7 a.m. and noon). I'll get back at it tomorrow.

The new booster in place. It's black instead of the usual metallic.


Old Jun 16, 2021 | 08:19 PM
  #152  
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Had occasion to have the two of them side by side today. With their proper license plates.

After driving the white one for several months now, I have to say that the two Toros have distinctly different personalities. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the dual exhaust on the white one. The red one is quiet, sedate, genuine boulevard cruiser. The white one is louder, seems a little peppier, a bit flashier perhaps because of the color. I think of them as grandfather and grandson. A bit nutty, I know, but at least I haven't given them names. I have no intention of doing that. Their license plate names are enough.

Another kind of milestone today. For reasons unexplained, the radio in the white one started working today. It sounds quite good. All four speakers work. Fader works. Tone control works. The only thing that doesn't work is the power antenna, but I've found that I can pull it up by hand, so I just do that for now. The FM works much better than the AM, which has a lot of engine static. But we'll take the FM for now because it means I don't have to find a replacement or hang something below the dash, and it means that I might be able to use my satellite radio in it because those are supposed to have a low-power FM transmitter in them as one way to transmit the signal to a car radio that doesn't have an AUX jack as this one certainly doesn't. Cool.




Old Jun 17, 2021 | 02:28 PM
  #153  
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Congrats on getting them both road worthy.

The radio thing is funny. I, too, have one of those sometimes it starts working wonders. It's kind of like finding a $10 bill in a jacket pocket the next time you wear it - it just makes you smile and happy when it starts playing.

A lot of people don't dig the 2nd generation Toronados, but in my opinion, that is a fine site right there.

I remember seeing your '78 on Craigslist. I wouldn't have bet on it ever looking like it does now. You've done a great job on those two.
Old Jun 17, 2021 | 03:08 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by 77toronado
A lot of people don't dig the 2nd generation Toronados, but in my opinion, that is a fine site right there.
Thanks. It's interesting (I think) to analyze the radical change Oldsmobile made in the Toronado between 1970 and 1971. What people forget is that, while the first year (1966) model sold well at almost 41,000 cars, the second year (1967) was barely more than half that at just under 22,000. I think I read somewhere that the drop was so dramatic that GM considered dropping the Toro after 1967. If it had, the Toronado would have been little more than a footnote in Oldsmobile's history. Production for the remainder of the first generation never got above 26,000 in any year. In one sense, it kind of made sense that Olds might redesign and re-target the Toro.

So the Toro was turned from a sort of personal luxury car similar to the Buick Riviera or the Pontiac Grand Prix to a more sedate, living-room-on-wheels design that probably resonated more with the typical Olds customer. Production of the second generation models bore this out with 1973 actually being the peak year for Toro production with almost 56,000 made. Only one other year, 1979, saw production exceed 50,000. Other "strong" years (as I call them), where production exceeded 40,000, were 1966, 1972, 1980, 1981, 1984, and 1985. In fact, the third generation (1979-1985) Toros were the most successful with only 1982 and 1983 having production less than 40,000, and 1983 came close at 39,605.

Here's a chart I made showing Toronado production over the 27 model years the model was produced.





Originally Posted by 77toronado
I remember seeing your '78 on Craigslist. I wouldn't have bet on it ever looking like it does now. You've done a great job on those two.
Thanks. Here's a photo I like to keep handy. It was taken by the seller (but not part of his craigslist ad) when the car was pulled out of the Florida muck and loaded on a flat-bed truck for transport to Georgia, where he lived. The car had been on the property of his parents near Miami from 2003 to 2017.





Here's a couple of photos from the original craigslist ad.




Old Jun 20, 2021 | 07:59 AM
  #155  
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I found a diagram in the CSM. That cable IS tied down in only one place, the alternator bracket like yours is. It's supposed to be held there by a "coolant temperature sensor strap" (lower right in the diagram below).




This is missing on my car, and I'll put something there to hold it in place.

Also, that cable is apparently removed from its attachment point by simply unscrewing it. It doesn't just pull or twist off. Same for the coolant temperature sensor, which I found is a two-prong thing that no one seems to sell replacements of. All I can find is the standard one-lug sensor for the dash light, which is not correct for this car. Not that I have any reason to believe that mine is defective. I just thought I'd see if new ones were available.





Originally Posted by 77toronado
The cable on mine seems to be held in place with a loose loop of zip tie hooked to the alternator bracket. I'm attaching some pictures showing where it's attached. I also took a few pictures while I was replacing the water pump as it exposed all of those pieces nicely that usually hide behind the power steering pump and the alternator. I didn't undo anything holding that cable down to any other part.

The cable is the yellow arrows. The zip tie is the red arrow. In the first picture, you'll also see your old friend the temperature sensor, too.




Here's what it looked like behind the power steering pump. Again, the yellow arrows are pointing to the cable. There wasn't anything securing it back in this area.


.
Old Jun 25, 2021 | 09:54 AM
  #156  
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Finally had a chance to get the crankshaft sensor cable disconnected from the sensor and out into the sunlight. I'm replacing the water pump, among other things, and this was much easier to get at with all of that removed.

I have to say that this cable is an unpleasant site. As I noted earlier, a portion of the outer insulation has deteriorated away. Those little hunks of it remaining just crumbled in my hand. I removed the remaining bad stuff on each side back to where the rubber seemed solid. I then took a 1/4" OD vacuum hose, cut it to the right length, slit it lengthwise, slid it over the bare portion of the cable, and then wrapped it a couple of times with electrical tape. I think it looks pretty good, and it should last for as long as I'm going to need it to. The wires inside the cable themselves looked fine.

So what caused this? I would think that the insulation on this cable was designed to live in a harsh environment where it is exposed to oil, grease, spilled coolant, and heat. But it was just this one about 8-inch length that had the problem, as though something had been spilled on it, and whatever it was ate away the rubber.


This is what it looked like before I had done anything.






Cleaned it up.






New rubber insulation.





All taped up.




With any luck, this will last another 44 years, and I can replace the tape in 2065!
Old Jun 25, 2021 | 10:00 AM
  #157  
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Here's the crankshaft sensor that the cable connects to. It was, not surprisingly, covered in grime. It cleaned up nicely, though.

I just happened to be looking at ebay, and one of these was being sold as an NOS piece, so I grabbed it. It should be here by mail by June 28. I don't know that I need it, but it was only $20, and who knows if I could ever find one again. It was unique to the '77 Toro, I believe.


Before clean-up.







After clean-up.










Here's the piece bought on ebay. These are the seller's photos. Same part number and everything.




Last edited by jaunty75; Jun 25, 2021 at 10:10 AM.
Old Jun 25, 2021 | 10:09 AM
  #158  
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While everything is exposed, I removed and cleaned up the little plastic piece with the timing marks on it.

Once cleaned up, I noticed it has blue paint on it. Is this engine paint overspray? So this was mounted to the engine before the engine was painted? If I ever had to replace this piece and I wanted the car to have a concourse-level restoration, would I need to apply some blue paint to it? After all, it came from the factory that way. Correct restorations are supposed to make it look just as it did when it left the factory, warts and all, right?





I noted that there is no paint on the bottom. This would make sense if this were mounted to the engine before the engine was painted. This side would not have been exposed to the paint spray, I assume.


Old Jun 26, 2021 | 07:53 AM
  #159  
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So the adjuster screw is still nice and secure on the bracket the pickup came off of? I have tread lightly around mine for lack of wanting to have to figure out exactly how to set the timing right again. I have the instructions in the manual, but you know what I mean.
Nice find on the ebay pickup.
Old Jun 26, 2021 | 10:11 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by 77toronado
So the adjuster screw is still nice and secure on the bracket the pickup came off of?
Yes, I paid attention to this. The adjuster has not been touched, so the sensor, whether I use the original one or the ebay purchase, should go right back into the same location. That ebay purchase should come in today's mail.



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