VI Cutty

Well, I can't procrastinate on this anymore although I think I'm subconsciously trying. I want to drive my '70 before June but need to swap engine/transmissions between it and the '72 first. I've never done this before, although I've pulled two engines from parts cars with the front end removed. I spent the last couple of days going through Macadoo's thread making notes of all the advice and lessons learned there. I'll throw my notes up here after I collate and format the comments a little better.


That thread has instilled in me a big fear of the MAWs, so I'm going to try and stay focussed on the essentials with the plan of going deeper later when I have more time. I've fashioned a pretty decent anti-MAW cap and am reciting the mantra "There's no time like tomorrow".


So why am I doing this? Well, I'm keeping the 1970 but it's currently powered by a 260 V8 while the 1972 has a strong 350 and transmission with a shift kit installed and working. The 1972 will be sold when I'm done. The 350 is actually a 1971 engine installed by a previous owner. I need to move that '72 on to a new owner and free up more shop space and cash to work on the '70.


My goal at the end is to have the '72 in a drivable state. It won't be perfect and will need additional maintenance but it will be complete and operational. I plan on doing some maintenance and restoration to the '70 during the process - clean and paint the 350 and the engine bay (quickly).


Both cars spent about 20 years in storage before I got them and although I've driven both, neither has seen any extensive operation since the 90's. The 350 has fairly low miles (I'm guessing around 10k) on a professional rebuild for which I have a pile of receipts. I'm debating whether I should replace fuel and/or water pump but will definitely check the timing chain for play. A pair of NOS Holley aluminum valve covers will go on for a bit of bling too. Transmission will get new front and rear seals...other seals may be replaced depending on what I can determine about sources of leaks while stored.


I'll be pulling the engines and transmissions separately. I know there are two schools of thought on what's easiest but I'll be working alone for the most part and don't relish dealing with the clumsiness of the larger assembly (pulled them together from the parts cars, so I have some idea of how that goes). I'll need to separate the transmission from the 350 to put it on the stand for work before installing in the 70 anyhow.


Limiting factors are floor space is at a premium in the shop and there's only one location I can do the work, so powerless cars will need to be moved around a couple times. I won't be able to use my 4 post lift due to other cars stored under and on it. I plan to pull the engine from the '70 first, switch the cars around, pull the 350 and install the 260 and transmission in the '72 to get it running again quickly (I hope!). Then another position swap and the '70 will sit while I do the other work to it and the engine.


My first question is drilling index holes in the hinges or scribing location. I assume using the holes and a pin makes repositioning the hood a lot easier than trying to line up to the scribe lines. Is there a preferred number of holes per hinge (one, two?) for best results, and a recommended location to drill them?


Yes, lots of pictures to come. And questions. And MAWs. Anyhow, I need a kick in the butt to get started on this so I can start enjoying the car. Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading it...which I assume you did if you've made it this far!

JohnnyBs68S

I feel your pain. I'm planning on pulling mine in a few years for a rebuild that may take 6 mos or more. My hope is to pull the engine while the car is on my 4-post lift (leaving trans installed), then lift the car up and out of the way so I can park my other summer ride underneath while the engine is rebuilt. Going to have to figure out some tricks to pull this off. But I digress.........


I believe to best re-locate the hood hinges, 2 holes will need to be drilled, otherwise you can't prevent a "pivot" around one of the pin points. However, I personally dislike the thought of drilling holes in parts you can't buy from Autozone. Thus, I'd be willing to forgo the drilling of hood hinges and spend the extra time to fuss with re-alignment.

RROLDSX

Just finishing up mine including all the MAW's which set me back almost 3 months. If you need to chat I'll send my contact details in a PM.

Randy

RROLDSX

I too was balking at pulling the engine and transmission together but I'm glad I did. Just make sure you've removed your radiator and have everything unbolted and disconnected before you do. As far as the hood goes, you can drill a small pilot hole or scribe deep either one will work. Leave one hinge on the car as a starting point. I used a moving blanket and placed the hood on the roof and never had to move it again until I re-install it. When you remove the hinge be careful on where the shims go that are hiding behind the hinge. You will also have to have the car elevated in both the rear and front with the front being a little higher. This will need to access the driveshaft in the rear and everything else you need in the front. Not too high or you'll have trouble lifting over the core but high enough to give good access under the front of the car. Hope this helps.

Kennybill

Just get a 455 for the 1970 and sell the 72 as is. MAW

VI Cutty

I had been thinking on that myself, without a lot of success. But I guess you can leave the lift a few inches off the ground and the engine crane should roll right underneath no problem. I might have to reconsider and move some cars around.

There are already a couple lines scribed from previous removal, but they don't align with the current location. I wasn't immediately sold on the idea of drilling but after looking at it (and the condition of the hinges) I feel better about it. I guess another option is using tape to mark the position.


Much appreciated Randy. I'm hoping to hold off on some of the more time consuming MAWs until I do the "big" upgrade to 455/TH400/LSD/Console in a year or two. I have the parts now but the engine hasn't run in over ten years and I want to spend some time on it. Or I go 4 speed... Long term plan is still a moving target!

don71

I've drilled a door hinge or two but never a hood, just scribing. Just be careful...well..you know.
I think you have done some good homework. I will ad that I like to work on stuff when its as clean as possible. So, my suggestion might be to maybe use a pressure washer on stuff now...within reason or at least give things a good bath. Nothing that would keep it from running until the point of your choice. IMHO.
I do like to remove the hood, thats for sure.

olds 307 and 403

I did the exact same thing. Someone thought it was wise to put a 260 in my 70S. I had a mid 14's 350 in my 88 Cutlass, swapping in a custom cam and going in this weekend.

oldcutlass

You can just remove the hood and leave the hinges in place. Mark the bolt locations for the hood on the underside of the hinges if you want and note shim locations. I readjust the hood when its put back on, not hard.

svnt442

This is something that I did in 1994, I think.
I had a 70 Cutlass S post and a 1980 Cutlass Supreme. The 350 in the 70 ran well enough, but I had a 455 in the 80. I spun a rod so I had decided that building the 455 and putting it into the 70 was the best choice and this determined the direction I would go.
I worked at Super Shops at the time so I got parts for a decent price. I did a complete rebuild on the 455 with a .030 overbore with TRW L2323 .030 pistons, an Erson JB100 cam and J heads (I was on a budget and it's what I had).
When I got the engine back from the machine shop (I had a friend that was letting me use his garage to do all of the work) I had the 80 staged at his house with the engine and trans out. I drove the 70 over and started on my three day trek to have two running cars.
I pulled the engine and trans out of the 70 and installed them in the 80 and that was one car down.
I spent the next two days assembling the engine and installing the engine and trans out of the 80 into the 70. The trans was a TH350 with a mild shift kit and "stock" stall (I.E. I have no clue what it was) and was a known quantity that I was comfortable putting behind the 455, at least for the time being.
I achieved my goal of two running and driving cars after 3 days and I had a blast with both of them.
Even with the J heads that thing was a tire scorcher. The car had a 2.56 posi and I had a lot of fun surprising people with it.

VI Cutty

Changed my plan around a bit - I'm going to do the pulls/installs with the car on my four post lift. Nice and easy to get at the underside stuff. The test run will be with the '72 so if things start going south I won't be stressing potential damage to the good car.


When removing the engine/trans as a single unit, I know I need to remove the radiator. What about distributor (assuming yes), transmission support crossbar, core support (prefer to avoid removing) and anything else I'm forgetting?

RROLDSX

I'm assuming you have the hood off and you are using an engine lift bracket that bolts to the intake manifold in place of the carb. You do not need to remove the trans cross member, just unbolt the trans mount. Yes, you should remove the distributor to avoid damaging it. I used the back hole on the engine lift bracket/ plate to help balance the transmission still bring attached. I lowered the engine/transmission with the trans on a wooden moving dolly and unbolted from the engine right onto the dolly. Probably wouldn't hurt to unbolt the torque converter while still in the car. Don't forget to use a transmission plug when you take the driveshaft out or there will be transmission fluid everywhere. Obviously all your hoses and wires need to be disconnected. I suggest taking very detailed pictures of every area in the engine bay to refer to later. I was amazed at what a jigsaw puzzle the power steering bracketry was to me. Nice to have a four post. Good luck!

oldcutlass

You can leave the core support and yes pull the distributor and radiator. You need to attach known good plastic bags (I use 2 freezer type sandwich bags 1 inside the other) with a heavy tie wrap to the the tailshaft of the transmission or you will have a red lake in your garage.

If you have A/C don't disconnct the hoses, just disconnect the brackets and move the compressor assy out of the way and tie in place. Disconnect manifolds from the block and leave attached to the exhaust pipes.

VI Cutty

Yes, the hood will be coming off. I have both manifold lift bracket and a load balancer, which one will give me better control? The last time I pulled the two together I learned that the balancer doesn't do jack when lifting from the manifold bracket, lol.



Thanks, should save me some unnecessary work there.



I only have to separate the 350, the other engine/trans will lift from one car directly to the other. I guess I can loosen the TC bolts while in the car and finish unbolting it on the ground.



Been there, done that, threw out the ATF soaked T-Shirt! I'm getting an old yoke from a friend of mine, should save me the headache. Always good to be reminded though.



Photos are a must, and so easy to do these days. Good advice for anyone, and I've used them to my advantage in the past. It will be nice to use the lift for the real reason I got it instead of just being a parking spot.

stan 65 cutlass

good to see your pulling the trigger Clay, i pulled mine by myself, left the muncie in place,i did drill a hole in each hinge and hood went rt back on easy. i have a couple sets of gaskets if you need to replace any while the engine is out. i would clean and paint it while its out, only takes one more day

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VI Cutty

Thanks Stan, I'll keep those gaskets in mind. Painting the engine and cleaning/detailing the engine compartment are in the plan. I put insurance on the '71 so I can drive something and resist the urge to rush this job too badly! I'd still like to be driving the '70 in early June, maybe for the A&W show and shine.

It's been too easy to make excuses for procrastinating and I decided to dive into this job without waiting for the stars to align or the shop to be sort of organized. I have it real good compared to others who have done some fantastic work on their cars. Hood is off and I've started removing/disconnecting things.

The exhaust manifold to downtube bolts don't want to budge though, and I reallllly don't want to shear them off. Soaked them with WD40 last night and again tonight, hoping they'll cooperate sometime between now and when they're the only things left holding the engine in the car!

All going well I'll be pulling it Saturday then moving the cars around for round 2.

oldcutlass

Why not just take the exhaust manifold off at the heads and leave them in place instead of breaking the exhaust pipe connection loose.

VI Cutty

I'll need to address them soon anyhow, as a dual exhaust will be installed shortly after the swaps are done. Both cars are currently single exhaust.


Is the 350 exhaust manifold the same as the 260?

stan 65 cutlass

the shop looks great, is thata frosty cold Sleemans? also shoot some wd 40 at the manifold side of the studs, sometimes they back out if the nuts are frozen.

VI Cutty

Yep, frosty cold Sleemans...WD40 to lubricate the nuts, Sleemans to lubricate the Nut. :-D


I've been shooting the WD at both sides of the nuts/bolts. Having the car on the lift makes access hella easy!



Ironic that the '70 CSM you gave me is now totally useful! I'll be going at it most of tonight and the weekend if you want to swing by and have frosty or two.

stan 65 cutlass

i will try and get by this saturday if i have a chance, pm me your house number, its been a while since i stopped by and i only remember the shop, and its hidden behind your house , ha ha

VI Cutty

PM Sent

m371961

If you are painting the engine compartments and the underside of the hood shoot the hinges and area with paint to mark the location of the hinges before removing. On fleet vehicles we did this all the time to make install of hood easier and did not worry about painting when re-installing, as it did not matter in that application.

m371961

That is also the way I deal with window regulators.

VI Cutty

That's actually what I wound up doing on this car. Quick shots of primer at each bolt and over the edge of the bracket.


That's not an option on the other car I'll be working on though.

m371961

If you paint them before installation, You are gonna want to touch them up after getting them right and tight. I like to clean as best as possible, prime area, remove hood and hinge, paint all but the areas you need to align, then finish them after all is done. You just have to match the touch up spray and blend into other paint. Just depends how perfect, and original you want it. I used Eastwood underhood satin and bought spray can of the same.

VI Cutty

No photos worth sharing just yet, but the pull is progressing as much as possible with only a couple hours in the evenings to get on it. The two exhaust bolts decided to move after three days of dowsing with WD40, some added leverage and a willingness to deal with the consequences of shearing them. Steady application of increasing pressure got some movement although with a lot of creak creak creak resistance. A bit of loosen/tighten and they're moving much better now, ready for removal. I'm hoping the other car is even easier, and I see at least one has already been replaced with a through bolt which I won't mind shearing.

Removed the starter for easier access to it's wires. Radiator is out, but not without a bit of a mess from fluid leaving the petcock and splashing around/running down the frame. Is there a secret to "messless" draining? Power steering pump is off with the bracket, it will stay in the car for simplicity. Assorted wires and hoses labelled, photographed and removed. I'm noticing a few differences between the 350 and 260 wiring/sensors, etc and will post photos and questions on them later.

Still remaining is the driveshaft (I have an old yoke now), distributor, accelerator cable, transmission to crossmember bolts, torque converter bolts and a few other miscellaneous wires around the coil, etc. Nearly ready to start lifting.

I'm glad I opted to make use of my lift even though it means parking a couple cars out in the rain which I had hoped to avoid. It's making it a LOT easier dealing with the bits under the car. Highly recommended!

My old engine leveller was missing 2 chains (only has one on each end) and no crank handle for adjusting, so I decided to pick up a new one yesterday instead of "making do".

I'm not sure how much I'll get done today, have to take my freshly "L"'d 16 year old out for her first driving lesson, a cellphone upgrade then host a family dinner tonight. It's coming along, though. My goal is to drive the '70 with 350 power by the end of the month. I'm taking off next Friday and all of the following week, so that target should be very achievable.

VI Cutty

Alright, I think I have everything disconnected and unbolted, and ready to lift them out. Got a couple questions at this point...the leveller chains are interfering with a couple sensors at the front of the engine, wondering if there is any reason I couldn't relocate the lifting chains to the holes I have circled in red? That should give me the clearance without having to pull these items off the engine...as lazy as that feels!

The big question I'm pondering right now is whether I'll be able to get enough clearance with the way I'm setup. This is the absolute lowest I can position the car if I'm going to do this on the car lift. Any lower and the lift will be sitting on the engine crane's legs. The engine crane doesn't have any load in this photo, so there is still the unloading of the suspension to consider. The car is about a foot off the ground. Am I going to have issues, be cutting it close or shouldn't be a problem? It's not too late for me to rejig and get the car on the ground.

ROCKETMAN269V

I don't see an issue with using those holes, from a strength standpoint.

Remove the bolt at the end of your boom and shorten up your lifting chain as close to the hook as possible.

stan 65 cutlass

ive always used the holes you circled, no issue, you cant get any lower because the legs wont go under the wheels

VI Cutty

Yeah, that should gain me a few inches at least. I guess the long shot question is how high do I need to lift the engine/trans from the resting position to where it will clear the core support. I'm not confident those gained inches will make enough difference.


On the bright side, this pause in progress gave me time to remember that I haven't disconnected the shift linkage yet!

VI Cutty

Single exhaust. Does the crossover pipe need to come off when removing the engine/transmission together?

Pull them together, they said. It would be easier they said....

RROLDSX

I guess it's easier without the leveller. I just pulled it out myself, no fuss no muss. Sorry your having issues. Besides, it's Oldsmobiledave's fault.

VI Cutty

Nice job! Now I'm feeling inadequate. And rained on. Damned weather.

You don't have the exhaust crossover pipe (or manifolds) which is what I'm having problems with. It's hard against the cross member and there's no more lifting space for the engine.

I'm debating removing the transmission support rather than fight the rusty exhaust bolts or manifold bolts. Yeah, I'm a chicken! (or feeling lazy). Would that give me enough space to raise the front of the engine enough to get over the member?

I'll have to ponder my next move...I won't have another chance to get out there for long until Thursday. I could bite the bullet and remove the crossover pipes even if the bolts shear (Next upgrade is dual exhaust anyhow) or remove the manifolds.

Or I could capitulate altogether and separate the engine/transmission.

olds 307 and 403

Those manifold and crossover bolts suck. Luckily mine had dual exhaust and the head to manifold bolts came out. I am degreeing my can this week and then hopefully drop the motor in Sunday.

RROLDSX

Can you lower the car? Shorten the Chain? Sawsall the cross over pipe? Stuff it back in and reset? Sometimes you just have to sit back and get creative. Good luck, wish I was there to give you a hand. Dam weather is depressing but it's giving me a whole lot more wrench time.

VI Cutty

They sure do look like they suck! Hope yours goes smoothly on Sunday, it's time to be driving these!


True that! I should have been mowing the lawn last night but it was raining too hard. I'm just hoping it clears up for this evening's cruise.


Lowering the car/shortening the chain isn't going to help in this situation. The crossover pipe against the crossmember is preventing the engine from moving any forward any further and the body is preventing me from lifting any higher.


While the four post lift was useful in prepping the car, now it's just getting in my way.


I'm far from euchred on this, just have to decide on the path forward. I'm hoping to avoid destructive solutions like the sawzall...as satisfying as that might be!

oldcutlass

Drop the trans cross member, its only 4 bolts. Then you should have between the trans and body.

VI Cutty

Success!!! But what a fight it put up!

- Removing the trans cross member helped a bit, but not enough. the problem of turning a rectangle in a given distance where the distance just isn't enough.
- I decided to stop procrastinating and went at the exhaust manifold bolts. They all came out without issue...so I was making much ado over nothing. I guess I'm accustomed to dealing with old VWs where anything exhaust is going to shear.
- Also had to remove the driver side mount on the block to free up the heat guard - it was preventing the manifold from dropping away enough for the oil pan to clear the crossover pipe.
- I had just enough height that I was able to just squeak the assembly over the core support.

That engine will be put to the side while I carry on with the next removal and the first installation. I'll have to debate whether I want to go through all that again or will opt for individual components.

Pictures later. Sleep now!

RROLDSX

Sleep tight, Don't let those VW bugs bite.