Macadoo

The mechanical fuel pump is disconnected so I traced the fuel line to this. Are all three canisters part of the electric fuel pump? I want to install a new mechanical but I can't make heads or tails of all this.
(71 Supreme, Olds built 350)

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droldsmorland

WOW not that's a Rube Goldberg if I ever saw one.Two back ups what a mess, twisted wire & wire nuts an all....wheres the scotch locks, duct tape and bailing wire? Oh and the coat hangers?
IMO yank it all out and start over with the correct plumbing lines pump etc.... This is a classic case of "if you dont know what your doing please dont it!

Professur

That looks like a good way to get to Valhalla ....

oldcutlass

That looks scary.

pogo69

i especially like that red wire nut twist cap....oh i mean caps

Mike77

Looks like a fire waiting to happen.

Macadoo

Nothing worse than cleaning up somebody else's shabby work Whether it's a car or a house.
So it can ALL go, yes?

Professur

Um .. please. before your car becomes the Fireball Special. Might want to do something about that wirenut we see on the other side too.

Macadoo

Oh hell man, I'm not driving this thing! Well, not since I got it home anyway. I'm going to spend this weekend stripping and cleaning the engine compartment. Once it's clean, then I start replacing gaskets along with the water pump, fuel pump, ALL wires and hoses including vacuum and gas. Etc., etc.
Will the chassis service manual have a diagram of the fuel lines from the tank? There's four, maybe five, lines coming from the tank that disappear under the carriage. I've identified two of them but the other three are a mystery.

m371961

What a mess. Those are 3 bendix electric pumps. Probably some idiots way of trying to solve a vapor lock or other fuel delivery trouble. Or maybe the PO thought if 1 electric pump increased HP, 3 are even better. Wanna bet it won't be your last surprise?
Oh, if they work, they do sometimes come in handy.

Macadoo

Well whatever it is, It's all going away this weekend. But I'll need a fuel line diagram before I can install the replacement mechanical pump. Wish I wouldn't have wasted time and money on the Chilton's.

Allan R

The mechanical pump is located on the front right side of the engine just below the #2 spark plug. Diagram for fuel hose routing (complete front to back) can be found in the Assembly manual and Chassis Service Manual. Chiltons can't hold a candle to them.

Professur

Mechanical fuel pump is pretty easy. Physically install the pump with the pointy wiggly bit inside the engine block. I think it can only go one way. The line from the tank goes to one side ... the carb line goes on the other. Pull your coil wire and crank it a few times, then look for leaks.

If you look, I'll bet the last guy didn't even remove the old manual pump.

Allan R

What would be the point of this? The fuel hoses should be clamped and if they are the proper ID they should be just fine. I'd think it more important to leave the coil wire on and see if the car starts and runs fine.

I bet you're right. Curious to see the answer.

Professur

I'm seriously paranoid about things like gas. I still soap check the seal when I change the bottle on my propane torch.

Allan R

I respect gas and compressed liquids a lot too. But I also used to work around them a lot and understand the MSDS and WHMIS safety precautions. In this case there shouldn't be any adverse problem with hooking up the fuel pump, running the proper fuel lines and test firing it. I would however seriously look at cleaning that ugly build up of crap while doing the removal and re-plumb.

BTW Love the Courage and Horsepower part of your signature.

Macadoo

X2 on the sig. Very cool.
I know exactly where the mechanical fuel pump is and goes. It's still there and access looks pretty easy. But am I over-thinking this? Four lines FROM the fuel tank but I can only find two up front. One goes to that freaking mess of a pump and the other to the evap tank (I think it's called). The mech pump has three access points; fuel in, fuel out, and I assume the third hooks to the evap tank.
I'm going to pull the electric pump tomorrow (it's 96 degrees right now with something like 90 percent humidity!). But i'll leave the old pump on while I degrease the engine. I also have a full tune-up to do before I attempt to fire it up.

kitfoxdave

there are some pictures on my build thread 72 convertible refurb on page 3 where you can see how the lines hook to the fuel tank... there are good diagrams in the assy manual as well.

Sampson

This is one of those times when you would love to talk to the PO and ask what he was trying to accomplish? like others have said rip all that crap out and start from scratch.

Allan R

Your 71 Supreme could actually has 5 lines at the tank end depending on the sender used. Look on the right side frame rail and see if there are 2 or 3 lines mounted there. If there are 3, then your fuel pump has a return line from the mechanical pump to the fuel sender. That means you will have 5 lines at the tank end.

If you only have 2 lines on the frame rail, one is for fuel delivery and the other is the emissions cannister line. In that case you will only have 4 lines at the tank - 3 are for the vents to the cannister behind the seat and the other for fuel delivery to the front. There are excellent diagrams that show the hose routing in the 71 Assembly Manual. See Section 8, pages 110-120

Fuel delivery and return lines are 3/8" and the emissions line is 5/16" IIRC.


When you hook up your mechanical pump, you will have 3/8" in to the pump and a steel line out to the carb (unless it's been replaced by rubber hose). The other outlet on the fuel pump is the fuel return line to the tank.

When you're changing out this part and also cleaning the grease and oil, take the time to replace the rubber fuel lines that run from the fuel pump back to the fuel supply/return and emissions pipe as they rarely ever get looked at but are prone to the same failure as any other rubber hose on the car.

starfire

OK, everybody all together now:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/

You register for free, especially for '71 they have the Assembly Manuals, Chassis Service Manuals, everything you need. [edit] just noticed they do not have the Fisher Body Manual for '71 yet [end edit]

For free. Check it out. You'll be able to throw that Chitlin's manual out.

Macadoo

I'd like to say that whoever put that mess together was an idiot but it's so complicated I can't. I do think he had more intelligence than sense. But I'm finding the weirdest stuff, like the upper radiator hose that has three patch repairs on three different spots and a tin can holding the hose to the waterpump. My god, are hoses THAT expensive and difficult to replace?
Anyway, thanks for the info Allan. I ordered an original chassis service manual today. I do have five lines coming out of the tank (discovered that a little while ago) but only two lines running inside the frame. The hoses connecting the pipes are trash, was planning on replacing them and blowing out the pipes. Oldcutlass suggested dropping the tank and giving it a good rinsing as well. What kind of clamps should I use for the hose/pipe connections? Quick connects would have a cleaner look but the wormgear style clamps would be tighter.
Starfire, I registered with Wildaboutcars after the first suggestion but, as you said, they don't have much up for the '71.

oldcutlass

I like the worm clamps. If you are going to go back stock you can run a fuel pump with a return line which just helps to prevent an over pressure build up between the fuel pump and the carb. Check the steel lines and make sure they are not corroded.

Yeah I saw all the patchwork on the radiator hoses which led me to believe the car had been poorly maintained.

Allan R

If you have only 2 lines on the frame rail, it sounds like someone replaced the fuel sender on the car with the wrong one. It should have a 1 outlet sender. Check and see if one of those lines (probably the smaller one - 5/16") has been terminated somewhere. As far as the clamps on the lines, this is not high pressure fuel like new cars. The factory simply used spring clamps which is more than sufficient if the right diameter hoses are used. Much easier to work with too and readily available at most auto parts stores.

Eric's suggestion is good, and if the tank has the wrong sender you might want to drop the tank and replace the sender with the proper one. Take the tank to a rad shop - they can hot dip it and also check for leaks. If any are found they can repair the tank too.

starfire

That's not what I said. I said they have everything for the '71 except the Fisher Body Manual. By that I mean they have two of the three most important books, the Assembly Manual and the Chassis Service Manual. They also have quite a few miscellaneous books such as the Salesman's price guide (interesting to figure out what your car cost new, and you can see what was and wasn't available on these cars at the time the Salesman's price guide came out), and the Showroom Brochure. Other than Fisher, I can't think of what else they could be missing that is necessary to restore a car.

MDchanic

The Chassis Service Manual has full diagrams and descriptions for all fuel line configurations, as well as for the standpipe and charcoal canister.

If you just go to WAC and download it, you will have the answers that you need, and will not have to keep trying blindly to figure it out.

As far as hose clamps, the spring clamps on my car were all fine, so I just reused them. They lasted forty years without leaking, so it seems to me they'll last a few more.

- Eric

Professur

my personal (admittedly paranoid) opinion is to not reuse old spring clamps. New ones are dirt cheap. By old I don't mean once used ... I mean with a few years on them.

MDchanic

Mine were still springy.

No rust on 'em either.

- Eric

Macadoo

Ain't this perty? Lord!

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Macadoo

And I don't even want to tell you what was used for the actual fuel line from the pump to the carb

The steel lines look surprisingly pristine but I'll blow them out for good measure. I'm still just removing components before cleaning. I'll have the chassis manual before I start putting it all back together. The fuel tank itself looks surprisingly good too. But I'll drop it and give it a good rinse. If it looks sketchy, I'll take it to a radiator shop.

Starfire, I did find the manuals last night when I actually has the time to sit and look. Thanks. Pretty cool site and all free? Works for me. It should be noted here that I'm not blindly poking around adding insult to injury on this old girl. I'm simply preparing for what is to come while I pull all the bad components and get her cleaned and ready for real work. Relax guys, I got this

kitfoxdave

I used the original spring clamps on the vent lines to the little tank in the trunk area, and used new ones for the long lines running to the front (both fuel and vent). Yeah I know they did not have clamps up on the vent lines from the factory, but what the heck... I was there and had the clamps!

Allan R

I guess the topic of clamps could become a side topic - so I'll just say 'to each their own'.

That is one ugly fuel pump contraption. I'm sure when you hook up the fuel system as it was originally it will be just fine. Just wondering if the PO might have put the wrong fuel cap on the car which may have caused vapor lock? The 71/72 cars were equipped with vented caps, which occasionally were left at filling stations and replacements put on with little thought to what was the right one? I'd be curious to know.

Dave - Me too. Only thing is I'm still using all OEM for the full system. I guess I must live dangerously? Naw, metal fatigue isn't an issue with these things.

380 Racer

X2 nobody needs a fuel leak! So worm drive clamps have been used on all my stuff since I was 16.

citcapp

I guess my concern would be:

Was the engine rebuilt at some stage and was the cam that operates the mechanical fuel pump installed after the rebuild and this was someones answer to fix the lack of fuel delivery.

Who knows what goes on in the mind of some shade tree operations

Macadoo

I can't say with 100% accuracy that it has never been rebuilt or had a cam swap (this thought was niggling at me too) but everything looks original to me. I spent the day pulling the fuel pump, alternator, power steering, and AC, with all associated brackets and belts.I thought I'd get further before the heat set in but it takes time when everything needs labeled. But the water pump, valve covers, intake, etc. still have the original gold paint (of course I'm guessing it's orioginal). I didn't even know it was gold under all that dirt and grease

The gas cap looks original as well. Again, I can't say with 100% accuracy but I spent the later seventies pumping gas for Standard/Amoco and learned a thing or two about gas caps, lol. I guess I'll find out if it has a vapor lock or fuel delivery problem when I get it all back together but that might be a while. Another argument for a new mild cam though I suppose.

1969w3155

I believe that this is what we call a cluster F--!

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MDchanic

Don't lose the two spacers for the power steering brackets.

- Eric

Macadoo

Egg cartons my good man, egg cartons. Lots of little containers and places to write notes :-)
I learned a while ago that the more I swear I'll remember something, the less likely it will be so.

Allan R

Now just don't forget where you put the egg cartons and notes. Don't ask....

kitfoxdave

If you happen to see my hood latch mechanism parts that I cleaned up and painted while you are looking for your egg cartons and notes.... Please let me know, I have been looking for them for a month... I think I have 2 more sets.... somewhere!