Macadoo

I'm converting to HEI and need to run a 12 awg power wire and found this article for Pontiacs;

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....onversion.html

It states:
"Now, the HEI needs a connection for 12 volts. Install new 12g wire from the (bat) terminal in the cap through the firewall; and splice into the ignition switch's main feed wire, usually pink in color. If this presents a hassle, any ignition-switched source under the dash will do, just don’t use a fuse box accessory connection."

Does this sound about right? And I understand I can delete the R-terminal wire at the starter but should I just unhook it and leave it in place so it's possible to go back to points? If so, do I need to unhook the R-terminal wire from the ignition side?
Thanks...

'71 CS 350 automatic

coppercutlass

I did mine sweet and simple and it doubles as anti theft. I ran a wire from that junction block on the firewall which is always hot I belive I ran a wire from there to the inside then a wire from the hei into the inside as well and I wired it into a small toggle switch that was out of site . So you can crank the car but unless that toggle switch is on you ain't got no spark.

Sampson

Not sure if this is correct procedure or not, but it is how I have wired mine. Car only has a couple hours running time but it seems to work good and was simple. The horn relay has a 12 volt switched terminal. I put a slit spade connector to this wire on the relay. Taped the HEI wire to the harness and it looks factory. Quick and easy. Others please feel free to jump in as I would like to hear if there are cons to this.

Macadoo

Junction box? Do you mean the regulator for the alternator? I'm not sure I want to drill into my dash at this point (even out of sight). can I just run straight from the regulator to the dizzy?
BTW, how are ya Copper? How's the frame? Long time no talk.

4speed455

There's a spade connector on the fuse box labeled IGN. It is 12 volts switched. Run a 12 gauge wire through the firewall to the distributor.

Macadoo

Is that the relay on the firewall or the left inner fender? Sounds easy enough. I'll be interested in what others have to say.

MDchanic

It's never a bad idea to install a kill switch while you're in the neighborhood.

As far as those instructions, yes, tap into the heavy pink wire out of the ignition switch.
Be sure to solder well.

Many use the IGN tap on the fuse block, but it is a bit tenuous for my taste - if you (or your wife) happened to nudge the wire while driving on the highway, you could lose all power, with unpleasant results.
The factory hard-wired it for a reason.

As far as the R terminal, you can leave it connected to the BAT terminal as well, or just tape it off - doesn't matter.

- Eric

coppercutlass

mac I belive it to be the horn relay. You can also run the wires under the carpet and hide the switch under the seat. Im not very good at remembering what part is named what lol but the way Sampson did it I believe to be the same way I did but I believe the bolt that's on that relay is 12 hot all the time I used that. You could also use those hook and loop style Velcro looking things that they use to hold stuff or even 3m double sided tape for the switch . That stuff is strong and its what most modern car makers use to hold body side moldings.


I have not done JACK $#it to my frame lol. memorial day weekend im towing it to my dads work and using their 10 ton cranes to lift the body and knock it all out in one weekend. The goal now is to be up and running for the olds powered nationals in Norwalk ohio in late july. It would be my b day gift to my self lol.

MDchanic

The horn relay does not have a terminal that goes on with the ignition.

- Eric

Macadoo

I'll be honest; I don't even know where the fusebox is yet. I've had the car covered and haven't been inside it for about six months. Do I try to access the back of the box or just come out the front?

Macadoo

Thanks Eric, I think this is the rout to go. And I find that wire under the dash or do i have to pull the ignition switch? Can I find this in the CSM?

Macadoo

So would this be a switch you kill right after it starts or do you leave it on while it's running?

MDchanic

The fusebox is over your left foot, and the taps are accessible from the front.

The wire in question comes off of the ignition switch, which is located on top of the steering column by the firewall.
It runs from there to the right, then down toward the floor, where it meets with the rest of the harness, and heads left toward the fusebox.

- Eric

MDchanic

A kill switch will interrupt the current to the coil and prevent the car from starting or running unless it is turned on.

- Eric

Sampson

Eric,
The brown wire on the horn relay comes straight off the ignition switch. Switch on it is hot. Switch off it is not. At least that is what is happening on mine. Horn relay is also the switch buzzer relay. No?

oldcutlass

I recommend a 30A relay and use the resistor wire connected to terminal 86. This way the resistor wire is still available in case you want to go back to points. A kill switch is useless as any thief knows how to jumper the coil.

MDchanic

What year and model are your car? It's always possible that it's one I'm not familiar with, but every one I've seen has four terminals:

• Hot from the battery (Big terminal with big red wires)
• Black from the horn button
• Black with Green stripe to the horns
• Pink with Black stripe from the key buzzer switch.

I've never seen a brown wire, or a feature on the horn relay that makes it go on when the ignition is on.

- Eric

Sampson

Eric you are probably correct it may be a pink wire with black stripe but looks brown or tan on this wiring schematic. Regardless it is a switched hot wire on my car which is a 72 Cutlass.

[IMG]s1310.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Sampson/media/imagejpg1_zps08320ba7.jpg.html][/URL][/IMG]

MDchanic

OMG. Are you saying that you have your HEI hooked up to your key buzzer switch?!?

The HEI draws a decent amount of current and runs off a 12ga supply wire.
The key buzzer runs off of an 18ga wire.
And have you ever seen the extremely fine, delicate leaf switch inside of your steering column that turns that on and off? Aside from its propensity to fall apart, with that amount of current, I could also imagine it welding itself together, which might make it interesting trying to turn off the engine.
Also, with the configuration you describe, pushing any key at all into your ignition switch will turn on the engine.

- Eric

coppercutlass

Dare I say its not this complicated to hook up an HEI. LOL . Pictures of schematics to just essentially supply constant 12v to a dist , I just grabbed a test light and started poking things then checking with a multi meter for voltage. I chose to use the bolt on the horn relay because I could not find a decent wire I trusted so I just wired it from scratch and it double as a kill switch. Sweet simple and not permanent. Well aside from drilling into my dash down low which I really could care less. Just a plain jane cutlass lol.

Sampson

Mine is A Pertronics electronic ignition which does not draw as many amps. Sorry Macado not trying to lead you wrong but was really focusing on the switched 12 volt source under the hood. Eric, I still think this is 12 volts straight off the switch. This wiring diagram is hard to follow as it looses detail when enlarged. I can tell you the current does not flow through the small leaf switch in the column as I have removed this from mine. I believe this works the ground side of the key buzzer circuit. I can state with certainty that the pink with black wire is switched hot. You have my curiosity up on the rest of the key buzzer circuit!

Fun71

This. Simple to do and you can put a toggle switch inline to use as an ignition kill/theft prevention device.
This is the way I connected mine back in the '80s and it's been fine for nearly 30 years now.
I coiled up the factory resistance wire and the wire running to the starter, taped them, and hung them behind the brake booster in case I ever got the urge to put the points distributor back in.

I disagree on it being useless. My sister's Ciera was prevented from being stolen out of her driveway simply because the park brake was engaged. Any obstacle you put in the way of a thief is a good thing. On an old Cutlass no one would be surprised if it cranked and cranked and wouldn't start - the thief would likely think it's typical for an old car. Heck, we have threads every day about someone having that issue on a car WITHOUT a kill switch.

MDchanic

This is making even less sense.

The horn relay has four contacts, as I said above. To reiterate:

• Hot terminal.
  • This is the power distribution post for the entire car, and is connected to the battery and is always hot.
  • It also powers the horn relay and horn, and the key buzzer.
• Horn button terminal.
  • This terminal goes to the horn button, which connects this terminal to ground when you push the horn button.
  • When this terminal is grounded, it completes the circuit from the big Hot terminal through the relay pull-in coil and closes the horn relay.
• Horn terminal.
  • This terminal carries current from the horn relay, when it has been closed by pressing the horn button, to the horns.
  • This current also comes from the Hot terminal.
• Key-in-switch terminal.
  • This terminal connects to the tiny switch inside the steering column, which is pressed closed by the tip of the ignition key when the key is inserted into the ignition lock.
  • The other side of this switch is connected to ground through the door switch when the driver's door is open, so that when both the key-in switch and the door switch are closed, current is conducted from the Hot terminal through the key-in buzzer, through the key-in switch, through the door switch, and to ground, causing the key-in buzzer to sound.

NONE of these terminals is switched by the ignition switch.
ALL of them are powered all the time, through their DIRECT connection to the battery.

I am sorry, but unless your car is of a year very far out of the usual range that we address here (you never stated your year and model), or unless it's been modified, your description simply does not make sense.

Perhaps it would help if you photographed your relay and connections so we could see what you're doing.

- Eric

pmathews

I hooked mine to the pink ignition wire, and it's working fine for now.

Originally, I had tried using underhood switched 12v (not the resistor wire), but when cranking the engine, the voltage dropped too much and the HEI wouldn't fire correctly. With the resistor wire, this would definitely fail, but even with regular switched 12v (non-resistor), I had issues.

Eventually, I'll be going the route that 'oldcutlass' suggested with direct 12v from the battery on a thick gauge wire and a switched relay (using the pink wire). That's a smart approach. Using small gauge wire is not a good idea, your HEI probably won't fire correctly on startup. Mine didn't.

joe_padavano

I doubt most car thieves today could even FIND a coil on an older car, much less know how to hot wire one. Heck, today a manual trans is an effective anti-theft device...

Sampson

I stand humbly corrected. .
I am not sure what I had been smoking when I was checking that terminal on the horn relay, but you are absolutely correct it is hot all the time through the relay and not through the pink wire. I had the steering wheel off the car at the time I was checking this so the key buzzer did not come into play.
2 things are really confusing me now.......
1. The above wiring diagram clearly shows the pink/black wire coming off the ign switch. By the term on the switch it says key +.
2. The way I had it wired with the red wire of the Pertronics module wired to an unswitched hot lead why did the car cut off when you turn the key off?... The green Pertronics wire is on the neg side of the coil and the original equipment resistance switched wire is on the plus side.
Thanks for straightening me out before it became a problem.

This has turned into a high jack of Macado's post and I apologies for the confusion I created.

Macadoo

I went to bed early and missed some good debate. All good info, thanks. I'll decide once I get under the dash.
It's finals week! One more week and then it's full time Olds time

Macadoo

No worries Sampson, not high-jacked and I appreciate the effort to help

Macadoo

Snuck out of work early...(read: "on time"). Now I'm laying under the dash and lord what a mess. I've discovered three toggle switches so far. I can only assume this has something to do with the three electronic fuel pumps it had when I got it. And the FM tuner hanging underneath. I;m wondering if I can use one of the fuel pump wires for the HEI. Looks like 12 gauge and in good shape. I'll have to trace them out.

Macadoo

One toggle deserves another (and to be wired together).

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

And the FM tuner...

[IMG][/IMG]

And the wires to be deleted....

[IMG][/IMG]

Does anything else look amiss under there?

MDchanic

I don't see anything wrong... Actually, it looks pretty good under there.

Usually there's a lot more horrific stuff than you had.

- Eric

jag1886

This the way to do it, it works perfect and you are giving the ignition a stand alone circuit that will add no load to anything else on the car and will give a constant 12V source for your HEI.
Those circuit breakers are available everywhere.

1970-W30

Simplest solution of all, just leave the stock distributor in and change the points/condenser once a year. I did a complete overhaul of the stock dizzy a year ago, it's good for at least a couple of decades or more now with minimal maintenance needed. HEI was designed for emission control, not performance, I can't see the advantage to switch over. Just my 2 cents worth that's all........

Macadoo

Well it's kind of a done deal now. I left everything in place in case I want to go back.

Macadoo

Oh I imagine it could have been A LOT worse. But I still can't figure out why one would wire three toggle switches together. Three-position switches at that.

[IMG][/IMG]

The yellow wire in the background is the new HEI power wire. Yellow was all the hardware store had in 12 ga. but it'll go nice with the yellow spark plug wires

70cutty

Why would you need a relay? How much power does hei draw? I have 10 gauge fused wire spliced into pink ignition wire under the dash.

MDchanic

So follow the wires and make a schematic of how they're hooked up - maybe it'll make sense when you see it.

- Eric

Macadoo

Meh, some mysteries are best left unsolved. Besides, it's too late. Already pulled all that mess out.

4speed455

If you run the wire through the firewall to the IGN terminal on the fuse panel and you want to leave the car disabled unplug the wire from the spade connector on the fuse box and tuck it up in the dash. It would take a good mechanic a while to figure that one out.

Macadoo

Haha, good idea. Not sure my back could take all that bending though.