Macadoo

Okay fellas, this is inexperience talking but here goes:

I'm installing Comp Cams 1441-kit (minus the pushrods). I installed the guide plates and torqued the studs to 30 ft lbs and installed the pushrods. Alignment seems good. I used assembly lube on all the parts; the valve stems, pushrod tips and cups, and rocker arm ball. I installed the rockers, *****, and nuts keeping them nice and loose. And then I followed these instructions:

Turn the engine in direction of rotation until the exhaust pushrod begins to move up. Adjust the intake by tightening to zero lash and then another half turn.
To adjust exhaust, bring the intake all the way up and then half way down. Take the lash to zero on the intake and turn another half turn.

Seems easy enough but what I discovered is that after adjusting, when the pushrod starts to go back down (intake or exhaust) the pushrod goes down but the rocker stays in place; keeping the valve open, making space between the pushrod and the rocker. I thought maybe I was making them too tight so I loosen until the rocker pops down onto the pushrod but then the pushrod is still loose and can easily be turned by hand.

I was told by a couple of folks here on CO that my original/stock pushrods would be okay so that's what I'm using. They look nice and pristine; no galling or other wear.
It just seems like the rockers are binding on the studs.
Thoughts?

coppercutlass

You might be running out of room on the studs . You might need longer pushrods . Probably .100 taller appx. What's going on is you are tightening the rockers and bringing it down on the stud to the point you are hitting the flaired area. Using a taller will bring it up. Your rocker pads are not milled so adding the guide plate that's .060 taller and bringing your rocker to mate with the pushrod brings it closer to that margin where it bottoms out. So add .060 to your stock push rod length and the lash .040 that's .100 getting a .100 taller pushrod should put you in a safe margin. I have a pusrod length checker and springs if you need them. I also have stock pushrods in various lengths

Macadoo

Thanks Copper, that's what I was thinking. I measured a pushrod but just with a ruler. It seems to be just a hair over 8 1/4 inches which would make it the 8.28 variety.
Do you have a set of used pushrods around 8.38 you're willing to sell? I like buying from you because the shipping takes around two days

Macadoo

Is this why everyone says the pushrods that come with the kit are the wrong size?

coppercutlass

One thing as a side note going to a taller pushrods will change the geometry a bit. I spoke to a trusted olds source and what I was told is you want the pattern on the valve stem to be in the general area of the center it can be a little low or high but you don't want it too far down or up if that makes sense. I went through all this when I had that issue with the broken rocker and had the same thing you have now. The diffrence between having my pattern dead center was .100 . With an 8.3 pushrod I was dead nuts but once I lashed it out I had the same thing where the rocker would hang the valve open. I figured since my rocker padswhere not milled and adding lash I needed 8.4 . I confirmed this with the length checker .

Macadoo

Yeah, I read up on the pattern checking when this first started. Don't want to stress the valve guides. So the 8.4's centered the pattern for you? Am I right that I have 8.28" rods or should I go buy a longer caliper to make sure?

76olds

Mac, I hope you get your engined dialled in soon!! I couldn't imagine going through all the set backs that you have overcome so far. I'n the event you need a closer measurement you can use your 6" or 8" caliper as a depth mic as well. Just put a build up of something of known height ( Like a gauge block or something ) beside your push rod and you will get a pretty close measurement using your caliper as a depth mic.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Eric

coppercutlass

The 8.4's for me left the pattern center offset towards the exhaust but just slightly . The 8.3 left it dead nuts center but the 8.4 did yeild a good enough pattern to where I was happy.

Macadoo

My caliper is only 6" long, lol. Taking the wife to dinner tonight, get her in a good mood. Then by Home Depot ;-)

So if I understand correctly, my stock rods are 8.234 (I measured 8.1875 with my best measuring tape but it was hard to get it centered which would have brought my measurement up a little short (and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be). But some posts here and other places claim 8.234.
If I add the 0.10 as you suggested (and I agree with) that takes me to 8.334. Closest I can find is 8.325 or 8.350 on the Summit site. The 8.340's had one review that said they measured out to be 8.1?! Lol, they're not making this easy.
I'm looking at these;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tf...50-8/overview/
What's the difference between a one-piece pushrod and a not-one-piece pushrod? Are the ***** a friction fit in the ends? Are the one-piece better?

coppercutlass

Get the slightly bigger ones. Its takes a bit to make a diffrence like well over .050 . .100 makes a diffrence. I got the trickflow hardened 1 piece pushrods. About 100 bucks but well worth it. Pushrods usually are available in .050 incriments.

Macadoo

That's what I thought too but if you go to Summit, search pushrods-assembled, and then under the sizes click "expand all", they list a crudload of sizes. They ain't cheap but they're there.
You said you went with 8.40", do you think the 8.35s are too short?

coppercutlass

Might be spot on actually. My heads where milled to compensate for the felpros .040 with a stock deck height . And my rocker pads where not milled so an 8.4 might work for you. At this point we are guessing. You need to measure for proper length but if I was to make an educated guess\sugesstion the 8.350 to 8.400 will work for you. I would go with the 8.350 . The diffrence between your heads and mine besides being milled is I had a valve job with bigger valves so my heights migh be a little diffrent . If you do get the 8.350 do one cylinder first. Sharpie the valve stem see the pattern and if its ok use em. If not clean the pushrods and send em back . I did that and had no issues with the return lol.

76olds

[QUOTE=Macadoo;786451]My caliper is only 6" long, lol. Taking the wife to dinner tonight, get her in a good mood. Then by Home Depot ;-)

LOL, I'n that case put your rockers in a safe place for later, Back your nuts rite off and get your rod ready for lengthening. Save room for desert after dinner.

coppercutlass

Mac I got a set here that is 8.200 new from comp cams. Actualy 8.203 according to the box . And I have a set of pushrods from a 330 that measure over 8.25 on a tape measure around 8.300 right on the mark for a 1/16 over a 1/4 inch so .250 plus .0625 that puts you over 8.30 appx. Ican ship em if you want on Monday . Freebies.

Beob

Why don't you buy a pushrod length checker and take the guessing out, like 20 bucks.
You also mentioned a popping, that sounds like the rod is not seated properly in cup of the rocker then pops into place.
If the rocker is hitting the stud the bottom of the rocker might look something like this

coppercutlass

The checker is one tool but then you also need checking springs and the tool to remover the valve locks with the heads on the car and you need to do the rope trick to hold the valves up while you swap springs. A checker is not strong enough to be used with regular valve spring.

Macadoo

Yeah, tired of guessing. Thanks Copper, once I know I might take you up on your offer...because, you know, you haven't done enough for me already :P

I did just buy this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111247183546...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

So I'll get the rocker up off the taper and then look for the valve tip pattern and go from there. I'll past back when I know.

coppercutlass

Mac if you are checking the springs use the checking springs . I bent that same checker once lol. But I agree check it its work worth doing don't guess.

Macadoo

Are you concerned that I have too much spring pressure? I'm sure that's not the case. I don't remember exactly but I vaguely remember them being just a little more than stock. I mean, my cam is under .50 lift.
Just out of curiosity, what's a typical milling amount for heads? I had mine milled but just enough to make them flat, and then the shop closed...forever. Just seems odd that I would be so short on preload with the stock rockers/pushrods when I had the heads milled and used the shim gaskets. Mark said the base circle of the cam is smaller but only by .010-.020.

MDchanic

Mac, the lighter springs are for use with the checking pushrod - you have to remove the stock spring from the valve you're testing and replace it with a weaker spring, as the fine threads on the checking pushrod are not made to withstand the full force of a stock spring, at least not for very long.

- Eric

coppercutlass

X2 with what Eric said. The lighter springs are soley for checking. You have to bring the piston to before tdc . Fill the cylinder with nylon rope then crank the engine over until it snugs up on the rope ( that holds the valves up ) . Once you do that you pop the lave locks off with the tool to do so with the heads on the car then you install your checking springs and have at it with the checking tool for the pushrods. You could just try out the pushrods I have and if the pattern checks out you are good. Essentially that's all your after is a good pattern .

Macadoo

Hmm, interesting that I didn't find that fact in any of my reading about using a pushrod length checker. Sigh...
Copper, if you want to toss those 8.3 rods my way I wouldn't complain. Let me pay for shipping though, will ya?

coppercutlass

I found that out the hard way mac. But yeah I'll ship em out.

Macadoo

So, for sure the checker won't work? I won't even get through a couple of checks before it implodes? Or will the threads collapse and give me an inaccurate reading? I've changed valve springs in the past so I'm familiar with the tools and processes but I feel like being lazy and stupid this time around.
I think I can still cancel the order for the checker tool. I might just use that money to buy a couple of other sizes (up from Copper's 8.3) and go that route.
Copper, if they don't fit do you want them back or should I offer them up here, maybe along with other free goodies?

Just to be clear; As it is now my rockers are sitting too low on the studs and binding, partly because of the guide-plate thickness, partly the pushrods. I would think that ideally, to maintain proper geometry, I would want longer pushrods AND longer valve stems. But since the latter ain't going to happen, I'm hoping to compensate with just new pushrods.

Is there a difference, in my case, between Summit's intake pushrods and their exhaust pushrods? I know some vehicles have different lengths between the two.

Macadoo

A Comp Cams video. Those don't look like checking springs.

coppercutlass

Mac. You will bend the pushrod checker in one crank lol. Checking with diffrent sizes is a little backwards but as long as you got the sizes its technically no diffrent than using a checker . Now based on my experience the rocker was too low. Our heads are a lot alike . My heads where milled to make up for the felpros's thickness although I had a valve job with bigger valves I doubt they would be that far off to change the gemoetry that much. It had 8.5 pushrods which where supplied to me and since I didn't know any better I ran it like that for years. The pattern was way towards the exhaust side of the heads. So I tried an 8.4 length with the checker and it was good then went 8.3 and the pattern was perfect. I ordered my pushrods but I didn't take valve lash into consideration. Once I lashed them the rockers got bound up on the stud. Like yours. Since you brought up the studs usable height by .060 with the guide plate you need to bring the pushrod up .060 and to be on the safe side factor in your lash appx. .040 so .0100. I know I explained all this before but I don't think I mentioned how I came to that conclusion. I used the checker and springs and all that and tried various configurations in sizes . I'm stuck running an 8.4 which yeilds a good pattern but not dead center like the 8.3 .

MDchanic

You're right, they're not.

But it's no big deal to go down to the hardware store and buy a compression spring the right diameter, and use it instead of your regular spring.

- Eric

coppercutlass

I bent that same exact checker doing it the same exact way. I bet his lifters where not pumped up and no spark plug. That adds a lot of resistance. My lifters where pumped up I had no spark plug in bent it to crap.

coppercutlass

There is nothing wrong with checking it with the length pushrods you think you need . Its just un practical because who the hell has that many diffrent sizes. Taking into consideration what has changed we can get close . The beauty of the adjustable valve train is that it makes up for some of the little diffrences like inconcistent valve stem heights. A pattern anywhere in the center is good. It does not have to fall dead nuts in the middle. I'll try to ship those pushrods out Monday . Now I gotta fire up my snow blower this whole winter thing sucks lol.

seansolds

Summitracing sells exactly the upgrade you need in a morose package specifically for 455 that will put your roller rocker in the center of your valve if as long as you just added magnum tip rollers and guide plates and have not milled the heads.. They are 5/16 pushrods with the welded ball on the ends but I would recommend 3/8 pushrods with no ball if you are running any heavier spring than stock.There is to much flex with the 5/16 don't bend and break one like I did if you are going to run it hard!

coppercutlass

But this is a small block. Bbo's have significantly longer pushrods if its for a 455.

oldstata

Just want to subscribe so I can follow

Beob

Not dismissing what others are saying at all, but I've used the checker with heavier than stock springs as i have a roller cam. had no problem at all.

coppercutlass

Where the lifters pumped up ? Spark plugh out ? Etc etc. Mine probably bent then because of the pumped up lifters. I'm just sharing what happened to me. I bent it pretty good lol. I had the same checker mac bought I bought a much better one from the local speed shop.

Macadoo

Eh, you just like my threads because I make so many mistakes, lol. Good to hear from you, Justin

Good to know Beob. If I bend mine, I can blame it on you

How long does it take for the lifters to bleed down? By the time I get to this it'll have been about three weeks since she's run.
How's the snow blowin' going? We're getting a good bit but not enough to cancel school....darn it!

oldstata

Lol no, I have been wanting to do this to the 455 build. I have adjusted valve before but It still feels odd to me and I haven't ever done it on a gm only imports

coppercutlass

To bleed the lifters it take some time in my experience. Btw I thought you had a shorter pushrod . I looked through the thread and saw you mentioned 8.28 ? double check make sure because although im using a tape measure to measure the pushrods im at a 1/16th over a 1/4 in. 1/16 is only .062 . Shipping should be cheap if you wanna try these out but i wanna make sure im giving you something thats longer than what you already have lol

We got about 8 inches of snow. Did my driveway, back patio , front porch and did the whole sidewalk along rt 31 on our block . Had a redbull and taking a break before house chores lol. Gotta clean the basement/workshop.

Beob

Plugs out, brand new lifters that soaked in oil for a day. Ive noticed that comp cams sells 2 dirrerent PRL checkers. The Magnum and the Hi Tech, the Hi Tech costs more, that's the one I used

coppercutlass

I probably had the cheaper of the two. The one i replaced it with had a much more corse thread and was beefier. Dunno the brand but it worked great once i figured out how not to bend the checker lol.

Beob

Hey man, I ain't tellin you what to do, was just sayin. Good luck!