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Hi this is Nic from Switzerland.
i`m still working on my Frankenstein build 1964 Cutlass 330 (Now 350) Engine with 7A heads etc. looking nice
but cant sort the Pushrod length properly with these Harland Sharp Rockers S4004
When i go the Geometric way starting on 0Deg. Lift like this person does, i`m very off center with the roller on the valves tip.
The Rocker Arm is to long and the "5/16 to 3/8 Stud" is almost 2turns to short to sort a starting point with 90degree.
I tried it anyway with less turns (approx. difference) but the result is not satisfying.
When i go this more simple way (on 0Deg. Lift) with marking the valve tip with paint, adjusting Roller on Valve Tip Center, fix retainer by hand, setting the adjustable push rod etc.
then i`m almost scratching the bottom of the "5/16 to 3/8 Stud" with the buttom of the Rockers.
But the Roller would somehow (wide) move around the Center of the valve tip that way.
My Questions are
1. Are these to correct Rockers for my engine / heads?
2. what way should i measure or "use" (Geometric or Simple) in this case?
Thanks for your advice
Simple Way with Paint on Valve Tip but very close to the Bottom of the Stud.
I will be totally honest. I just run the shortest pushrod possible that gives the best pattern. For me its never been dead center but it's been thin with no sweep. I have ran pushrods as far off as .100 with no I'll effect until I ran out of clearance when I changed then cam. ( Long story ). I have been running prw 302 rocker arms for years . You can try buying the rocker arm studs with no tulip at the bottom. They make em.
Most stock heads use a HS 5003S rocker. But I’ve found you can use the the 5016 as well on just about any Olds Head with the right studs and stud pad height.
I will be totally honest. I just run the shortest pushrod possible that gives the best pattern. For me its never been dead center but it's been thin with no sweep. I have ran pushrods as far off as .100 with no I'll effect until I ran out of clearance when I changed then cam. ( Long story ). I have been running prw 302 rocker arms for years . You can try buying the rocker arm studs with no tulip at the bottom. They make em.
Hi Coppercutlass,
first of all.. thanks for your feedback! Would this be the PRWs you talkin‘ about ?
I think i need a 3/8 to keep my converting studs and a ratio of 1.6 right?
i‘m feelin‘ bit lost and don‘t wanna order
something wrong that i can‘t return..
switzerland - usa - shipping & import taxes are heavy.
Most stock heads use a HS 5003S rocker. But I’ve found you can use the the 5016 as well on just about any Olds Head with the right studs and stud pad height.
Hi Cutlassefi!
thanks for your reply!
i checked your HS rockers. They have 7/16 studs and thats to big for my original heads where i have / use conversion studs from 5/16 to 3/8 for my rockers (HS4004). I don‘t wanna get the heads machined again to get them fit for 7/16 studs. I‘m almost shure there would be more things on top that need to get drilled to make things fit smooth.
Maybe guide plates, pushrod channel.
These are the ones to not have to convert or drill the heads. So far I have ran 2 sets of these. I only trust the stainless units .
wow!! This is exactly the help i need!
thank you very very much!
But why only stainless rockers?
just asking, are Aluminum rockers not strong enuff and could it be that guided rollers don’t fit on the valve tip/retainer/flat?
They are overseas units ( china made ) . The aluminum at best is questionable. Although the stainless is a little bit heavier it's sturdy construction gives me a little piece of mind. I have ran 2 sets fairly hard on 2 different engines and have had no issues. I also did my research and the aluminum ones where more prone to failure.
Hi Cutlassefi!
thanks for your reply!
i checked your HS rockers. They have 7/16 studs and thats to big for my original heads where i have / use conversion studs from 5/16 to 3/8 for my rockers (HS4004). I don‘t wanna get the heads machined again to get them fit for 7/16 studs. I‘m almost shure there would be more things on top that need to get drilled to make things fit smooth.
Maybe guide plates, pushrod channel.
Call Harland Sharp, they’ll make em in 3/8” if you want.
Just sayin.
They are overseas units ( china made ) . The aluminum at best is questionable. Although the stainless is a little bit heavier it's sturdy construction gives me a little piece of mind. I have ran 2 sets fairly hard on 2 different engines and have had no issues. I also did my research and the aluminum ones where more prone to failure.
ah right.. china china.. Okay got it.
But on what type of cylinder headz did you used yours (stainless rockers) on?
any pictures?
& i was checkin‘ „jegs“ same product with 3 different listings an prices?
The last link had the most details on part and it's the correct one. I used them on iron heads. The pads are not milled so the pattern is slightly towards the ex. Side. But no sweep.
Call Harland Sharp, they’ll make em in 3/8” if you want.
Just sayin.
oh okay thanks! A custom order.
I will first check why i got these HS4004 sent, by knowing my planed settings with the 7A headz.. i told them (supplier / not HS / but shipped by) before ordering and now is the money payed & stuff don‘t fit.
The last link had the most details on part and it's the correct one. I used them on iron heads. The pads are not milled so the pattern is slightly towards the ex. Side. But no sweep.
okay, if i have to go this way i will document it and let you know if these things fit, wiggle & leave the correct marks on the valve tip.
finally, whats your favorite way to sort the correct „push rod“ length & geometry?
I will be totally honest. I just run the shortest pushrod possible that gives the best pattern. For me its never been dead center but it's been thin with no sweep. I have ran pushrods as far off as .100 with no I'll effect until I ran out of clearance when I changed then cam. ( Long story ). I have been running prw 302 rocker arms for years . You can try buying the rocker arm studs with no tulip at the bottom. They make em.
The first video you showed is pretty much how I do as far as geometry and pushrod length but from other builds I have learned it's hard unless you mill the pads. You run out of room. Another thing to think about is with ford rocker arms around 550 lift you start to run out of lift clearance around the poly locks. Crower makes a thin poly lock that will give alot more clearance. I ran into this issue on my current engine.
The first video you showed is pretty much how I do as far as geometry and pushrod length but from other builds I have learned it's hard unless you mill the pads. You run out of room. Another thing to think about is with ford rocker arms around 550 lift you start to run out of lift clearance around the poly locks. Crower makes a thin poly lock that will give alot more clearance. I ran into this issue on my current engine.
How much lift are you running with the Crower thin poly locks? How much lift can you go?
I'm running 550/560 lift at the moment as far as how much more lift ........ Well that's tricky. The opening isn't exactly square to the poly lock at lift with the rockers I had atleast . So it gets tighter to the bottom of the slot at full lift. When I found the rocker arm was pushing the stud. I just put a dial indicator and looked for how much movement I had and factored in clearance for the poly lock. I will try to dig out my notes. I have all the stuff written somewhere in my binder of stuff.
Here’s what happens when you don’t use the exact right rocker.
Because the geometry isn’t perfect the rocker will typically need to sit higher on the stud changing the angle of the rocker vs the stud, THAT’s what limits travel.
Put a 5003 or better still a 5016 on it and you’ll see how much lower it sits on the stud, allowing more range of travel. I routinely check the 5016 to .650 and beyond, no issues.
The first video you showed is pretty much how I do as far as geometry and pushrod length but from other builds I have learned it's hard unless you mill the pads. You run out of room. Another thing to think about is with ford rocker arms around 550 lift you start to run out of lift clearance around the poly locks. Crower makes a thin poly lock that will give alot more clearance. I ran into this issue on my current engine.
oooh! What about that lift?
would it fit „Ford 302“ ?
Here’s what happens when you don’t use the exact right rocker.
Because the geometry isn’t perfect the rocker will typically need to sit higher on the stud changing the angle of the rocker vs the stud, THAT’s what limits travel.
Put a 5003 or better still a 5016 on it and you’ll see how much lower it sits on the stud, allowing more range of travel. I routinely check the 5016 to .650 and beyond, no issues.
So there (HA5003 or HA5016) would be no scratching at the bottom of the „tulip looking studs (5/16 to 3/8)“?
the roller can be adjusted to the center of the valve tip with no large sweep and
it could handle the 504/512 cam lift?
thanks for your advice
There are low on the stud also and are on center on the valve stem. With procomp heads 68cc by the Bernard Mondello. I also like steel rockers. HA5016 I guess are strong, they charge enough for them. And Mark, Bill, Bernard and others recommend using. prw are fine on my build. It's just think aluminium gets fatigue over time. It may not be the case with the HS.
My Cam and working
· Advertised intake duration: 279
· Advertised exhaust duration: 287
· .050 intake duration: 225
· .050 exhaust duration: 233
· intake lift: .523
· exhaust lift: .523
· lobe separation: 110
I do want to build a DX, just for peace of mind. I know everyone says you do not need it. Unless for high HP. I getting old, this would be my last engine. Take my time grinding and smoothing the engine for painting. I want to be able to give it a big shot of Nitrous Oxide when I want to. Mark's or 425 crank. No rush, I have not blown up this one yet. Did not port the Procomp. I did the 7a with BBO valve on the first engine. Had no time, because of moving. Sorry I did not. So much power from a all out port job!
As time goes on., Mark bringing more and more products into play.
Last edited by HighwayStar 442; December 30th, 2020 at 11:19 AM.
Here’s what happens when you don’t use the exact right rocker.
Because the geometry isn’t perfect the rocker will typically need to sit higher on the stud changing the angle of the rocker vs the stud, THAT’s what limits travel.
Put a 5003 or better still a 5016 on it and you’ll see how much lower it sits on the stud, allowing more range of travel. I routinely check the 5016 to .650 and beyond, no issues.
i received a photo of a harlandsharp catalog.. it seems HS4004 are the same as HS5001
Nic, a couple questions: What head gasket do you have and do you know its thickness; Has the block been deck cut and if so how much and have the heads been milled and if so how much? One more thing, have the rocker pedestal pads been milled to compensate for the thickness of the guide plate?
Nic, a couple questions: What head gasket do you have and do you know its thickness; Has the block been deck cut and if so how much and have the heads been milled and if so how much? One more thing, have the rocker pedestal pads been milled to compensate for the thickness of the guide plate?
Hi Jim. Happy New Year!
about your questions:
Deck Cut (no) only cleaned & good polish
Heads been milled (don`t know how much)
Headgasket - FelPro
Rocker Pedestal Pads (all Stock, not milled)
and here you find a documented pictorial as pdf of my detailed problem.
Download (10 mb)https://we.tl/t-4DZym23YkY
I forgot to add follow text Into the photo documentation.
I can tighten the polylock 9.3 turns till the rocker (without pushrod) grinds the bottom of the converter stud (its a 5/16 to 3/8).
To have the roller of the rocker centered to the valve tip (with 0% lift from the camshaft and installed adjustable pushrod, fixed without lash, nice & snug) i need minimum 8turns
(no extra half turn to fix the polylock with final pushrod length Selection)
So i have approx around .021“ to 0.042“ (a turn of a 3/8 stud) left before the rocker grinds the buttom of the „trumpet looking“ converter stud.
If i have the pre filled (thick oil) lifter on approx 50% lift (i did measure lift hight with a tool / clock looking tool)
then the roller moves far to the edge of the valve tip & almost over it.
I will try to get that number for you tonight. I was out in the garage last night but I was building a 347 ford for a friend and ran out of time by the time my wife called me for dinner.
I will try to get that number for you tonight. I was out in the garage last night but I was building a 347 ford for a friend and ran out of time by the time my wife called me for dinner.
i‘m very very thankful for all your supports! Did you checked my photo documentation with almost all possible details.
Nic, I have reviewed your PDF and also just finished reviewing this entire post. If I am reading correctly, in your first post you describe the stud as being too short to establish the 90 degree relationship. If that is the case, for establishing a reference, I suggest you add some flat washers under the head of the rocker stud until you can attain the 90 degree relationship and then check the sweep and the pattern on the valve stem. I don't recommend leaving the flat washers in place but see if you can find a longer rocker stud. Is there a reason why you do not use the pedestal rocker system that Sharp makes? Have you contacted them in regard to the issue you are having? I think that they would work with you to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
Nic, I have reviewed your PDF and also just finished reviewing this entire post. If I am reading correctly, in your first post you describe the stud as being too short to establish the 90 degree relationship. If that is the case, for establishing a reference, I suggest you add some flat washers under the head of the rocker stud until you can attain the 90 degree relationship and then check the sweep and the pattern on the valve stem. I don't recommend leaving the flat washers in place but see if you can find a longer rocker stud. Is there a reason why you do not use the pedestal rocker system that Sharp makes? Have you contacted them in regard to the issue you are having? I think that they would work with you to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
hi
first thanks for joining to solve my problem & happy, healthy new year!
yes i was trying your supposed way too and i took these washers off and did
2-3 turns less (compensation of the shimes) and the result was in every way off.
why not using pedestal rockers set.. hmm. I got it offered that this may be the only solution for my Olds 7A heads
by a engine builder that now sell parts too.. but now i start thinking he isnt that much into olds engines.
Anyway, i got all parts delivered directly by harland sharp.
These rockers i have ain‘t even engraved with any part numbers/ID. Maybe i just got the wrong ones in the right box (sticker on the box).
i would love to check & sort my problem
with a harlandsharp expert too.
i wrote emails and insta chat got nothing in return till now, but its xmas / new year break maybe.
see pictures of my geometric try here Geometric way start off point 90degree 50% lift... 90 degree with X turns (3/8 = 0.042 tpi) of the polylock (i have cam lift of 504 / 512...)
Last edited by Nic_The_Cutlass_Guy; January 2nd, 2021 at 01:15 PM.
And Happy New Year to you as well! OK! I see that you did try that and the rocker is too far off the center of the valve stem. I have an old set (purchased around 1970 or so) of Sharp Oldsmobile rockers and they have no numbers on them either (mine are 7/16" stud). I can not compare my set up to yours as my block (400 CID "E" block) was decked to near zero and my heads milled almost 0.100". Anyway, my Sharp rockers sat very low on the studs but worked well. They have some snow on the ground up there in North East Ohio and your probably right about them being closed for the holiday season. I think it best you contact them with all the information you have and try to get it sorted out. I guess it would be possible to have a mispackaged product. Many would say try another brand rocker but not so easy for you being on the other side of the pond. I can only say that the Harland Sharp product has a good rep and they have been around a long time. Best of luck!
And Happy New Year to you as well! OK! I see that you did try that and the rocker is too far off the center of the valve stem. I have an old set (purchased around 1970 or so) of Sharp Oldsmobile rockers and they have no numbers on them either (mine are 7/16" stud). I can not compare my set up to yours as my block (400 CID "E" block) was decked to near zero and my heads milled almost 0.100". Anyway, my Sharp rockers sat very low on the studs but worked well. They have some snow on the ground up there in North East Ohio and your probably right about them being closed for the holiday season. I think it best you contact them with all the information you have and try to get it sorted out. I guess it would be possible to have a mispackaged product. Many would say try another brand rocker but not so easy for you being on the other side of the pond. I can only say that the Harland Sharp product has a good rep and they have been around a long time. Best of luck!
Thanks! I wait and cross fingers.
hupefully there will be once a solution!
i keep you in loop about this.
I can't help to wonder how much you can wiggle the studs before tightening.
1. Remove one pair of rocker arms, one guide plate,
2. Screw the 5/16" end in til it bottoms,
3. Loosen the stud one turn,
4. Measure (with a dial indicator) how much the stud wiggles back and forth and record the amount.
5. Back the stud out the thickness of the guide plate,
6. Measure again (with a dial indicator) and record again.
7. Measure how much of the 5/16" thread sticks through the guide plate.
I "think" the stud to threaded hole fit is what might be causing the problem. Until the stud is tightened (locked down) it could be moving around. This could be part of why the geometry is so far off.
.......Just my two cents worth.
I can't help to wonder how much you can wiggle the studs before tightening.
1. Remove one pair of rocker arms, one guide plate,
2. Screw the 5/16" end in til it bottoms,
3. Loosen the stud one turn,
4. Measure (with a dial indicator) how much the stud wiggles back and forth and record the amount.
5. Back the stud out the thickness of the guide plate,
6. Measure again (with a dial indicator) and record again.
7. Measure how much of the 5/16" thread sticks through the guide plate.
I "think" the stud to threaded hole fit is what might be causing the problem. Until the stud is tightened (locked down) it could be moving around. This could be part of why the geometry is so far off.
.......Just my two cents worth.
hmm.. just make shure if i understand you, are thinking about these parts.
And here
Length with guideplate
1 Turn of a 5/16 UNF should lift 0.042 inch same like a 3/8 UNF stud.
Last edited by Nic_The_Cutlass_Guy; January 2nd, 2021 at 05:36 PM.
Remove the rocker arm. You need a magnetic base and dial indicator. Something does appear to be wrong. You need to see if they are the right ratio rocker arms. 1.7 ratio arms would throw you off a lot. After looking at this view, I am now thinking the stud wiggle (looseness) might not be much of the problem.
Remove the rocker arm. You need a magnetic base and dial indicator. Something does appear to be wrong. You need to see if they are the right ratio rocker arms. 1.7 ratio arms would throw you off a lot. After looking at this view, I am now thinking the stud wiggle (looseness) might not be much of the problem.
yes.. i did check if the stud is movin / flexing but all tight and solid..
HS4004 (equal to 5001) have a 1.6 ratio. But like i wrote before, i can’t proof what harland sent me, there is no
ID on them.
Big thanks for your support!
yes.. i did check if the stud is movin / flexing but all tight and solid..
HS4004 (equal to 5001) have a 1.6 ratio. But like i wrote before, i can’t proof what harland sent me, there is no
ID on them.
Big thanks for your support!
I was wondering if the threads were loose enough before locking down tight to allow some of the bad alignment. From the close up view, I can see you have a big problem. Can you return the rocker arms and get a different set ?
Ok so I'm under 1.5 from center of the roller to the fulcrum area. Like 1.4 best I could measure with the rocker arm on the car and I did it a few ways. Dial caliper and a dress makers measuring tape lol. Of course the measuring tape wouldn't be exact but it backed up my dial caliper measurements. A few pics that may help.
December 29th, 2020, 09:51 AM
