ctsplicer

O K folks ,here we go again.Wife's 64 Cutlass,330,number 2 heads.Lost oil pressure due to a faulty oil pump.Ground the crank,new main and rod bearings,oil pump and intermediate shaft.On start up the valve train was clattering.bent pushrods bad valve guides and some bad rocker arm studs.Got some studs from a very kind gentleman on this sight.This is stud style not shaft,so,new pushrods,rocker arm studs,rocker arms and valve job.Put it all together,tightening the rockers down all the way(zero lash).started it up and the rockers have some wobble to them causeing valvetrain noise.so ,my question is,can I go with a newer style setup with the rockers,fulcrum ,bridge and shoulder bolts,or can I get new fulcrums as that is the only thing I didn't replace and I'm sure they're worn?I can't keep throwing money at this thing.They're must be an answer out there somewhere.

oldcutlass

There is no adjustment to the rocker assys, they should be torqued down tight. Did you say you replaced all the rocker and perch assys? Did you check the lifters while you had it apart? Were the heads milled? Are the valve stems the correct length? Which head gaskets (thickness) did you install? All these things play into why they are noisy.

ctsplicer

I know there is no adjustment.The heads weren't milled.Lifters are fine.Valve stems are the correct height.Stock head gaskets.I didn't replace the perches as I can't locate any,which is why I am asking about the newer style that bolts to the heads with shoulder bolts.

ctsplicer

How would head gaskets contribute to valve train noise?

coppercutlass

Newer head gaskets are usually thicker unless you sourced the shim gaskets about .018 vs the newer thicker ones usually on avg. .040 so that gives you .022 of a difference. that will raise the head that much more creating a looser tolerance on you valve train components. Are they "stock" or stock replacements ? That could be an issue. Its no different than if you where to mill the heads to gain compression you would have to go to a shorter pushrod depending on how heavy of a cut was given .

ctsplicer

Stock replacements.cross referenced man. part number.

coppercutlass

whats the thickness of the gasket. Finding shim gaskets is not very easy. What brand? Stock replacements usually are .040 thick that's usually the norm.

ctsplicer

I figured since the rocker arms were worn so much that my pivots are also worn,which is why I was inquiring about the newer style.The original style is not available.

ctsplicer

Felpro.I don't have the box here with me.

coppercutlass

You should know the gasket thickness though. Now here is a million dollar question did the set up make noise before ?

coppercutlass

Felpros are usually .040 thick.

ctsplicer

Didn't make noise before.Don't know the thickness of the gasket.Was given to me by the shop that did the valve job.There is slop in the rocker arms.The shop that rebuilt the engine for the previous owner did a crappy job.There were small washers on 3 of the rocker arms and he had tapped 4 of the studs with course thread rather than fine thread.Probably done to quiet the valve train.

oldcutlass

New perches and rockers can be had from any auto parts store and you can use the new style, they are not super expensive. I would start there with no spacers underneath. It's not just the new head gaskets that cause valve train noise but a combination of reusing old parts, if the heads were milled previously, cam and lifter wear, changes in valve geometry due to different seats and valve stem lengths. You have to see what is causing it.

ctsplicer

Thank you.I will purchase new perches today.

jag1886

You put thicker gaskets in that raised the heads from there original location plus worn rockers and perches, I don't get what you mean by (things got bent) because that indicates something is clashing, did I misunderstand what you meant?

ctsplicer

I didn't say things got bent.I said Some push rods were bent.I replaced them with stock push rods,5/16 x 8.234 inches long.

ctsplicer

OK Oldsmobrainiacs, here we go again.I replaced the push rods with stock push rods 8.234 inches long,rocker arms,sealed power R856A,Rocker Arm Pivots,Sealed Power MR1903 and Rocker Arm Bridge Sealed Power MR1840.I had to first drill out the pivots and bridges to 3/8 inch because they are 5/16 and number 2 heads accept 3/8 not 5/16.Bolted it all down with 3/8 16 x 1 1/2 grade 8 allen cap bolts.At first everything is nice and tight(no play at all).After abot 25 minutes,I grap the rocker arms only to find side to side movement.Upon starting the car it runs great but..................clattering like crazy.All 16 of them.Now,only 6 valve guides were replaced so that's not the issue.Please,what am I missing?Could the rockers be to big?never seen this side to side slop before.Could the lifters be bad,although there doesn't appear to be a problem upon inspection,no wear on them and they came out of the bores nice and easy,no burrs or mushrooming?Longer push rods?But would longer push rods stop the side to side slop.As you can tell,I'm not familiar with Olds engines.

oldcutlass

Whats your oil pressure and what viscosity oil are you running? you also need to measure how far lifter preload is from 0 lash to when the rocker bolts are tightened all the way. If there is not enough preload then you will get noise.

ctsplicer

Oil pressure is 55PSI,Castrol GTX 10W30.Not sure how to measure lifter preload.

Oldsmaniac

Yes it could be the lifters, they are spring loaded inside. The plunger is the part that the pushrod sits on and it should be free moving down and up when they are not completely full of oil. The plunger can get stuck and not move thus causing slop in the rockers.

ctsplicer

That makes sense.I'm just tired of throwing money at this.

Nilsson

But what are the chances that all the lifters are bad at the same time?

Oldsmaniac

Not saying that is what the problem is but rather something to check. The pushrods can be too short now as well. Lifter preload should always be checked. The last engine I redid required longer pushrods. The one I am working on now has been sitting an ALL lifters were varnished up tight so the plunger would not move.

oldcutlass

basically your looking for about 1/8 of an inch of movement from 0 lash to when the rockers are fully tight. One way would be with a run out gauge measuring the tip of the rocker.





Another way is with the intake off and checking how far the plunger goes back into the lifter with a dial caliper or depth gauge.





The measurements would be basically the same way as checking Chevy valve adjustments, the valves need to be closed in the sequence of the firing order. There are other ways to measure but most often times these are easy to find.

Fun71

This is what I would check first. Any time you do head and / or valve work you should measure to see what length push rods are needed.

ctsplicer

Thanks,have built a number of engines in my past,Chevy,Ford,Pontiac,Mopar and never ran across such a perplexing problem.Guess I will have to get a depth gauge and an adjustable pushrod.

ctsplicer

Also,would I be correct in assuming that I shouldn't be able to spin the pushrods with the pivots tightened all the way down.I have had different people tell me different things.I can spin the pushrods and I don't think I should be able to.

oldcutlass

Depends on how strong your fingers are and if the lifter bled down or not. I check 0 lash by moving the push rod up and down while watching the lifter plunger, 0 is when the push rod does not move up and down while just coming in contact with the lifter. On a Chevy you would tighten the nut 1/2 to 1 turn and your done. Can't do that with a stock Olds. So you can adjust the preload with push rod length, shimming or grinding the perches, or going to an aftermarket adjustable valve train.

ctsplicer

OK my fingers aren't that strong anymore.I couldn't move the push rod up and down.My main concern is the noise it's making,since I can move the rockers side to side.I don't like that at all.Just doesn't seem right.

steve442

I had to grind my perches down after I re did my motor, new cam, lifters, springs, I had the same problem you are talking about. I ground them, reinstalled them , noise gone.

ctsplicer

After all I have done,drilling out the perches and straps,I'm a little gun shy about grinding the perches and how much to take off and how to go about it.

Oldsmaniac

The pushrod ends become highly polished as does their mating parts so it takes little effort to spin the pushrod with your finges even when loaded. The pushrods spin slowly when the engine is running. When the engine is not running you may be able to wiggle a rocker side to side that is not loaded but you should not be able to wiggle a loaded rocker from what I have seen.

ctsplicer

OK then that explains a lot.these parts are all new,so they shouldn't be too highly polished yet.These pushrods spin pretty easily so I will check preload tomorrow.Steve,did you have the side to side slop as well?As far as using the newer style pivots and bridges,imagine my surprise when I found out they were 5/16 rather than 3/8.Not fun.

oldcutlass

That is an issue with the early model heads, difference in diameter of the mounting bolt. Sorry I thought you knew that when I suggested using the later model setup.

ctsplicer

Nah,it's cool though.Learn something new everyday.Just another reason I'm happy I have a Chebby engine in mine.This is the wife's car,but my headache.

ctsplicer

Steve,if you don't mind me asking,how much did you have to grind off the pivots?And how did you go about it?

steve442

I removed .010 off my perches, friend had a Bridgeport so I used that, the headgasket thickness makes a difference. Or you can get a adjustable pushrod, and take the measurement, then order new pushrods.

ctsplicer

I measured the old gasket and the new one and they are the same thickness.In my situation,I had a valve job done and some new valve guides installed.The shop that did the heads informs me that the valve tips were hammered so he had to grind the ends just to get them out.Therein lies my problem.Should just have replaced all the valves,but I was not informed of this untill the heads were back on the engine.I will make up a jig and use a bench grinder as I don't have access to a Bridgeport and don't want to buy new push rods.I've spent enough already.

cjsdad

Did they grind all the valve stems exactly the same? Different depth on the valve seats will change the stem height as well. You need to check all the stems and know the exact preload for your lifters before grinding the perches so you can get the correct rocker geometry. That machine shop didn't really do you a solid when they shortened the valves without telling you.

oldcutlass

I would pull the intake and measure each one individually for the correct preload. The problem your going run into is if the 2 valves on the same perch are at different heights.