Well I got three out of eight of the intake ports done. Plan to hit it hard again tomorrow. I broke the cartridge role holder bit so I ordered three more from Eastwood. I think I'm going to pick up some of that high temp two part epoxy to attach the clips we got from Lars. Any luck on finding an intake? If I were you I would be careful about calling this a max effort build. I guess in a way it is, because you are certainly making the most of what you have. Down the road, after you install this engine, and dial it in, if you're really interested in how the BB heads would work on a SB, we can bolt my non ported "C" castings on for ***** and giggles.

 

That's what I mean by max effort. Squeezing the hell out of the combo dime for dime. I got like 3 intakes lined up. I need to sell this performer lol. Im gonna re list it tomorrow on ebay. I need to hold of on buying anything until jan 1st. Im gonna order the Viton seals and the q pads for your 67 tonight. I got a few questions I'll give you a ring later.

 

All due respect, this is NOT a max effort build, it is a hot street engine on a budget.

 

Max effort street engine then. Lets compromise. I guess that's the best way to put it since it's going to be on the ragged edge so to seak. I plan on running the most compression I can while still running pump gas , The biggest cam I can while still being able to run 3.73's and a 3000 stall , I guess max effort is subjected to being interpreted differently by others. I bet to guys running pro mod max effort is running 2000 hp plus. I went from I want it mild to F**^ it lets turn the wick up and see how fast we can get this screamer to run.

 

I am not trying to argue or insult, but this is one of the issues that results in a lot of confusion. It isn't what I think or what you think, it is what is the accepted standard in the industry. By calling it a "max effort" it is like calling your re-ring "rebuilt". It causes confusion. Guys see your build and think they can build a bulletproof SBO for that cost, and you can't. You are still using the stock rods, for goodness sake. It should be a reliable, fun street engine and be a lot of fun to drive, but don't call it a "max effort" build when it isn't even close to that. Nick's old 380, now THAT was a max effort SBO build. Ask him what he had in that.

 

No biggie. I understand where you are coming from.

 

Ok So I orders some goodies last night. I got .030 rod bearings from king, Rings from total seal , I got a gasket set , and some Viton seals from manley , I also bought some stuff for daves 67 and that's part of the budget since he is taking care of my heads I only find it fair I help him get his car ready for paint. The total so far 242. I still need to order a cam which is 170 from howards , To balance the rotating assembly it's 175 and 55 to r&r the cam bearings.


So far I spent :


100 for the heads
90 for the cam bearing and mains
242 for the rings , rod bearings , Viton seals , gasket set , and stuff for daves 67.


So with the prices I got from the machine shop and with tax im looking at appx 700 bucks. I still need to buy a holley intake that so far I cant get for under 120 . Im gonna keep an eye out for some Harland sharps . Hopefully the bopc swap meet treats me well this year and I can find some there. If not then I will run the roller tip rockers since I have a set lying around .

 

Keep up the good work on your max effort.

 

max effort to keep it cheap lol.

 

lol and stop confusing people

 

Im gonna start using * * between words that maybe misinterpreted then having a list of what they mean to me. Coppercutlass' dictionary.

 

Honestly this is a max effort with minimal expense. You are attempting to get the most performance out of what you have scrounged up for dirt cheap. I commend you, and am glad to be a part of this project. Aside from using stock rods, I think everything else you have for this build looks real good for a pump gas engine. You really are not cheaping out on the assembly. Most guys probably wouldn't even bother balancing a street engine. Just remember if you do pick up the Holley manifold, it will need modifications in the way of welding above the runners, if you ever do decide to go with the Pro Comps or Edelbrocks. Right now the only two manifolds, that I know of, with enough material to match port, are the RPM Performer and the Victor. I did make some good progress on your heads today-
119-1920_IMG.jpg

 

I am one cheap sob lol. For me that's what keeps this fun for me. I like to work and I love to learn and I like tinkering with stuff and I can never leave stuff alone. Dave I have to thank you and J a lot. You guys have given me lots of advice and food for thought on many subjects. This is what sepreates this build from anything else I have really done.




On another note dave do you think the rpm has enough material since they are designed to be port matched to the eddy heads. After watching the episode of that 380 hp 350 on hp tv. It showed how the rpm out performed the victor. Would finding an rpm be possibly a better choice. I bout an rpm for 120 4 years back im sure I can score one cheap if I look. I don't know what it would cost to do that work to the holley intake.

 

The RPM and Victor are the only two intakes for a small block Olds that do have enough material on the upper portion of the port for aftermarket head match porting. I think the RPM Performer is a good choice, being a dual plain, for lower RPM usage. The Holley Strip Dominator is a single Plain manifold that would be easier to port and really shines in drag racing application when using SB heads. You would have to add material to the top of the runners to use them with the BB or aftermarket heads. The Holley will be fine for the heads I am porting for your engine. I'm only raising the port .100"
As far as what it would cost to modify the Holley, my guess would be $100 plus porting.

 

Dave I think I had a brain fart. LOL. So we will only be raising the intake .100 so we don't need to weld material on correct lol. You said weld and I saw expense and im like OH F*&^ lol.

 

Merry Christmas to me lol. Got all my stuff but I done screwed up I only ordered 8 Viton seals I thought I clicked 2 on the box when I made my order. Looks like I gotta place in order again. Also Fwiw for anyone looking for A cheaper alternative to the felpro gasket set The speed pro kit cost 38 vs 58 . IT IS the same exact kit the ble head gaskets have felpro embossed in them. It even has the big flepro on the box lol.

 

Check out this build over on ROP-
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2050.html


Very similar to what you're doing. Fairly respectable results with a pretty mild cam. See what $6600 can buy you for a small block with cast iron heads.


Posted by RIF RAF » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:32 am
350 +.030
ARP main studs, rod bolts, head bolts
Stock crank
cryo'd factory rods
Speed pro forged pistons & moly ring set
9.8 compression
ACL bearings
Cloyes timing set
Mondello thrust button
Comp 42-223-4 XE268H
Comp lifters, springs, retainers, locks
Comp adjustable valvetrain kit (roller tip rockers)
Si Valves 2.0int 1.625exh
#5 heads, filled crossover, bowl ported exh, bowl and runner ported int (nothing overly extensive)
Edelbrock Performer intake - ported to anti-reversion kit and matched to heads
RIF RAF Q-jet ani-Reversion kit
Factory Q-jet with Cliff's kit
Felpro gaskets and seals
HEI distributer w/pertronix upgrade kit
MSD "street" wires
NGK V power plugs
Std volume melling oil pump/ stock oil pan
Professional Products balancer
Stock flex plate, valve covers, water pump, timing cover, timing pointer, & misc etc
Hooker "competition" headers

All machine work performed @ JMRE
Dyno'd @ JMRE altitude 2700ish and DA was about 4000ft

401HP & 440ftlbs on 91 octane

 

I think at 6600 bucks I would have to blow my brains out lol. All said and done I might have 2k into this one. Very nice build regardless. I could do 400 hp with a chevy for 2500 and everything would be new. I would spend 6k if I was doing a bbo. There is wayyyyyyy to much sbo stuff floating around cheap to buy everything new. There is a guy seling a hihg 11 sec low 12 sec 79 cutlass for under 6k. I would buy. That before I buily 6k engine lol.

 

We all know you would never spend that much, but IMO that is pretty much the going rate and fair price for a complete carb-to-pan engine, especially if the price included dyno and break in time. And, no looking for free parts and work, no scrounging, no waiting over a year, etc. New parts, quality machine work, and some kind of warranty. Some guys prefer this route while you choose your way. I'm not taking a shot at you, neither is wrong, to each his own.

Also, look at the TQ numbers. Over 400 ft/lbs from 3000-5000 rpm and maybe provides evidence that the Performer is really a bit under-rated. Pretty impressive and a well thought out build that will run fine on pump gas and should be reliable for years to come and a lot of fun to drive, which is the most important thing. This is an example of a good street build that is easily duplicated. IMHO.

 

I agree jim the price is what the going rate is. I'm torn between the rpm and the street dominator intake at the moment because I have 2 leads on one at the moment but none on the rpm. Imo people can take what we are doing but do it "right" and achieve what we did. Prices and results may vary.

 

IMO, the RPM is better all-round, but the Dominator might make more high rpm power. If it is a street car with no crazy gear or converter, I would go RPM. A street strip with a lot of gear and converter the Dominator. Just my .02

 

2800 stall with 3.73's I think the dominator would be fine at where I'm at but if I can find an rpm I would jump on it. I'm currently holding off on buying stuff work., is slow and I don't wanna tie up money I might need (literally typing this in the lunch room as I wait for my cars to be done in paint dept ) . But probably towards the end of feb. I'm gonna get it done and tie it all up. I know dave wants to flow the heads and I'm intrested as well to see what they flow.

 

Jim I'm glad you're here to help. I agree 100% with your thoughts about these two manifold choices. I think the Holley would probably perform slightly better on the strip at higher RPMs but the Edelbrock might be a better choice for lower RPM torque on the street. Do you have any thoughts about cutting down the divider on the performer RPM intake? The other up side to using the Edelbrock would be the ability to raise the ports for use with BB heads or Pro comps. The Holley does not have enough material on top of the port to do this. Copper I put a PM to the guy I found with the Edelbrock for sale. If he still has it I will probably pick it up, then you can do some back to back manifold testing.

 

I added a spacer which basically does the same thing and really did not see any difference. If you look at how well the Performer performed (which is a dual place) on the 9.8 to 1 355 you linked, I think it shows that it is a good choice on a driver. Yeah, you make lose a little up top, but you spend most of your time between idle and 3000. I would go RPM.

 

Dave. I should have the money from that perfomer I sold by Friday. So that's a good chunk of change there about 125 to spend. unless you want me to buy the dominator to do testing . I don't want you to spend any money you don't have to.

 

I got it for $150 shipped. Should be arriving soon. It's up to you on the Street Dominator. I think the runners will be a little easier to port. They don't have as tight of turns as the Edelbrock. I just wanted to raise the roof a little and do some plenum work. I think you should save your money for that machine work. We can always get a Holley down the road. I don't think it's smart to buy extra parts for testing right now. Let's get it going down the track first. We could always bolt that Victor on That Jeromy's got for me. Let me know if you still want to come up Sunday.

 

I'll let you know bout Sunday. I'll pay you for that rpm intake.

 

That RPM manifold needs some major gasket matching for use with iron heads, the floor is built real tall at the port so you can use it with Edelbrock alum heads, it's no big problem but for your "max effort" engine it will need to be done. Been there done that!

 

Alright. So my game plan is to hopefully wrap this up sometime next month if not sometime late in the spring as march is my get the car ready for the track month . There is a few things that are new to me im doing on this build. Like degreeing the cam and file fitting rings which I may have the shop do at the time they install the cam bearings. I want to blue print this engine and measure everything out. Any tips or advice on on degreeing the cam and file fitting the rings. I would like to do the rings. if its worth it i'll buy the little rig they got to do it. Any tips on blue printing an engine.


I might add im in no rush to finish this engine if I have to wait it out I might do a few things to it like run arp head bolts , main bolts , and a few other things that would be nice to do. My current 355 is running strong and as long as I can have this engine ready after Sept. to make some 1/4 mile blast's before the season is over im good. I still have to get some track time with the current set up and push to scrape 12's

 

I'm anxious to see how this build turns out Copper.

 

Degree the cam with only the #1 piston installed. It makes rotating the engine easier resulting in more precise measurements. Take the time to verify your balancer is accurrate while you are at true TDC.

On the rings, take your time and go slow. Blueprinting an engine is really just taking the time to get everything perfect and documenting it. If you want .0025 on the rods and one is .0018 (which is acceptable) you re-hone it to .0025. It takes a LOT of time to do it right. Make sure you mark the bearing shells with a sharpie so that once you get it perfect, everything goes back in the same place.

Wash eveything. When you think it is clean enough, do it again.

Theoretically, if you change the main bolts you will need to re-check the align hone (assuming it was done in the first place) and main clearances. I doubt that it will change much but it is all part of the process.

 

+1.

 

Thanks jim and thanks guys. Like always my stuff takes forever to build but I think this little set up will run pretty strong and I will be able to say I checked everything . Which I already checked all the rod and main journals and they where all very very close and all they need is a light polish with a little 400 grit and some oil . The bores need a light hone for the new rings . The big one is degreeing the cam and file fitting the rings .

 

Could you post some pics of the file-fitting process when you get it going? I'd be interested.

 

Sure mac not a problem. Probably won't be for atleast a month or two at the soonest.

 

Ok guys so today I picked up my heads and intake. 67cutlassfreak wants me to bolt the heads on the engine and the intake on the heads with machinist blue dye to mark where the ports need grinding on the intake so we can finish op the porting. Well I started to mess around with the gaskets and laying them on the heads and the intake just to see how things looked. I went ahead and grabbed some big bolts so the gasket can sit straight. Now on the cylinder heads the gaskets line up very nice. Dave trimmed the roof of the gaskets to match the heads ., the floor needs to be trimmed but someone else ground on the floor but not a whole lot. Now my issue where im a bit concerned is I layed the gasket on the intake with a few bolts and there is a major issue with the floor being really low. Or that's what it looks like to me. I messed with it a lot to mimmick how it could move once on the engine. I know movement of the intake is limited by the bolt holes. so I bolted the intake onto a cylinder heads and snugged it enough to be able to see what that movement allowed. What that showed me was that the roof was really close not off by much. Now when I measure the floor of the intake runner on the cyl. head size on the deck then measure the floor of the intake runner to the surface of the intake where it meets the deck there is a serious difference the floor seems really low. Now I know all this can change once its on the engine but im talking a 1/4 in. almost difference between the floor on the intake gasket and the floor on the intake manifold meaning that's one big step going up from the intake floor to the cyl. intake floor. Considering I had the gaskets lined up pretty good and the floor wasn't off by much on the cyl. head side but it was about 1/4 lower on the intake with the gasktes lined up should I be worried. Now I know I need to put it all together to really see it but it seems like a really big difference. I don't think the intake can come that far up to make up the difference specially since the roof is really close. I cant see how this can be over come with out grinding the floor of the intake. I could be wrong I want to see what you guys think. Btw I found out these heads have been milled. I measure some stockers between the head bolt boss and the deck 2 stock sets measure 2.002 mine measure 1.77 . The intake was a used unit and had been preiviously gasket matched.



Edit: no matter how I lined up the gasket the floor was very low. I know the gasket can move and mess things up a bit but this seems like way too much . The second pic is what it looked like centered. Then with the roof lines matched the drop would but still had a big step .

This first pic is pretty much how the roof lined up to most ports

 

First finish cutting out the gasket. tack the gaskets onto the heads. Trim gasgets so they are perfect on head's intake ports. Use the small cartridge roll I gave you. Install the heads on your block with old compressed head gasket in place. You don't have to torque the heads just snug them down with 4 bolts on each. Apply a generous amount of the machinist dye, especially on top of each port and the sides. Carefully set the intake in place and torque evenly as if you wer installing. Unbolt the heads and pull the heads back off with the intake attached. Now look down the intake ports through the intake valve for a mismatch on the floor. If the previous owner of the intake ported the floor we may have to get it welded up. I don't want to use epoxy on the intake. I'm more worried about the deck right now. A pretty agressive shave would be .050". Your measurements are closer to .250" - I hope that's not the case.

 

My mistake dave its a .025 diffrence it wasn't a 1/4 in. I think I typed my numbers all mesed up I meant 1.977. I will double check tonight. The only reason I was worried because It seemed kinda like a big diffrence. I'm gonna try to get it set up this week to get everything figured out but now my issue is needeing to know the cc's with a zero deck block and appx. 5 cc's less I may have to change my approach. Thanks for typing out the instructions that will help. I'm going to need to find some compresed gaskets I only have new sets. I just hope we don't have to get it welded and the cc's come with in the 68 cc to 70 cc range. If not I'm screwed and will have to run a block with more deck surface which means I will have to put this project on hold for a while.

 

Worry not, young jedi. We can always go with a thicker head gasket, like the Fel Pro blue. I'd say the max we can go on pump gas will be 10.5:1, we should shoot for that. There's a formula to calculate combustion chamber CC by how much was milled off. I'll post it up later after I get off work.

 

I think its appx every .005 is 1 cc. I think we will be in the 10.5 to 1 range I did some math earlier. We should be fine.