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Well, it looks like I am in need of a new/rebuilt engine. I have a 1967 CS Holiday Coupe with the high output 330 and 2 speed Jetaway trans. I am building the car as a resto-mod so I do not feel the need to rebuild the 330 right away. I would like a little more power and I would love a 4 speed trans. So, I’m thinking about rebuilding a 350 block that I have into an EFI 383 stroker and connecting it to a 700R4. What do you guys think? Should I go with a crate engine and trans, or can I build a better one for less if I know what I’m doing?
Well, it looks like I am in need of a new/rebuilt engine. I have a 1967 CS Holiday Coupe with the high output 330 and 2 speed Jetaway trans. I am building the car as a resto-mod so I do not feel the need to rebuild the 330 right away. I would like a little more power and I would love a 4 speed trans. So, I’m thinking about rebuilding a 350 block that I have into an EFI 383 stroker and connecting it to a 700R4. What do you guys think? Should I go with a crate engine and trans, or can I build a better one for less if I know what I’m doing?
Thanks!
I think you may have your wires crossed. There are no 383 Stroker OLDSMOBILE crate engines. Those are Chevrolet’s and they’re not remotely the same engine.
Same with the 700-r4, that’s.a Chevy trans, not an Olds.
Now, I offer stroker kits for Oldsmobile’s but they’ll be considerably more money than a Chevy kit. It’s just the way it is.
The 700R4 is a POS. Behind any real power, they don't live. I believe a TH2004R is a near direct swap for your Jetaway trans. You will need to move the crossmember to the TH400 position but the transmission is the same dimension as a short tail TH350. It will also need upgrades to live behind more power. As Mark said above he offers a 4" stroker assembly, in the $2500 ball park, don't quote me. It gives 420+ ci, actual ci depends on the overbore. As said a "GM" 383 crate motor is a fancy way of saying chevy.
While I am planning to rebuild the original 330 and stroking it very interesting, I wasn’t looking for an olds crate engine. This is a resto-mod so I was looking at building the Chevy 350 motor that I have (it was rescued from a field) or buying a Chevy crate and doing a swap. If I rebuild the 330 the car will have to be in storage for a long time so that my other cars can be in the garage. I’m not sold on the Chevy engine/trans route, I just assumed that would be the easiest and probably the cheapest way to get to 450 hp and still look pretty normal.
Ditto what "olds 307 and 403" said. I had a '93 GMC 1500 with the stock 350 and 700R4 trans. Never did any serious towing with it and once when I was about 200 miles from home I was pulling out of a parking lot when "bang" it let go. Was not a lot of fun driving back home with only first and second gears. Get it up to 55 and let it free wheel coast down to 35, repeat, repeat for 200 miles!
Ditto what "olds 307 and 403" said. I had a '93 GMC 1500 with the stock 350 and 700R4 trans. Never did any serious towing with it and once when I was about 200 miles from home I was pulling out of a parking lot when "bang" it let go. Was not a lot of fun driving back home with only first and second gears. Get it up to 55 and let it free wheel coast down to 35, repeat, repeat for 200 miles!
Yes, the dreaded 3/4 burnt clutch packs. I did that to our 03 work truck which would have the supposedly better 4L65E, an electronic version, slightly heavier duty version of said turd trans. My 94 had the dreaded, super weak reverse, another common issue.
I just assumed that would be the easiest and probably the cheapest way to get to 450 hp and still look pretty normal.
New motor mounts and frame pads, new trans, new crossmember, new driveshaft, new starter, new accessory brackets, new starter, new exhaust, new distributor, new hoses, new wiring... Yeah, it's MUCH cheaper...
New motor mounts and frame pads, new trans, new crossmember, new driveshaft, new starter, new accessory brackets, new starter, new exhaust, new distributor, new hoses, new wiring... Yeah, it's MUCH cheaper.
Babailey, the 320 HP 330 is a really nice engine, of course your factory drivetrain is ultra sleepy. (2speed 3.08 rear)
Performance 200-4R and converter with a 3.73 rear will make your car a completely different animal. It will give you back the 50-75 HP that your current drivetrain is leaving on the table. Not 450 HP obviously but you car will be night and day different with 2 basic mods.
While I am planning to rebuild the original 330 and stroking it very interesting, I wasn’t looking for an olds crate engine. This is a resto-mod so I was looking at building the Chevy 350 motor that I have (it was rescued from a field) or buying a Chevy crate and doing a swap. If I rebuild the 330 the car will have to be in storage for a long time so that my other cars can be in the garage. I’m not sold on the Chevy engine/trans route, I just assumed that would be the easiest and probably the cheapest way to get to 450 hp and still look pretty normal.
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
New motor mounts and frame pads, new trans, new crossmember, new driveshaft, new starter, new accessory brackets, new starter, new exhaust, new distributor, new hoses, new wiring... Yeah, it's MUCH cheaper...
You know what happens when you ASSume...
Going to a Chevy powerplant is not that hard nor expensive. Yes you will need new frame brackets, engine mounts, 1 starter, and any accy brackets required. You won't need a cross member, the driveshaft replacement and some e-brake mods depends on your choice of trans, you may need a distributor if the crate engine does not come with one. You would not need a complete exhaust, just manifolds or headers and front pipe mods. The wiring changes are minor you just have to reroute and/or extend a few. What happens most of the time is once you've accomplished the swap is you will probably never mess with the 330 or put another Olds back in it.
You won't need a cross member, the driveshaft replacement and some e-brake mods depends on your choice of trans, you may need a distributor if the crate engine does not come with one. You would not need a complete exhaust, just manifolds or headers and front pipe mods. The wiring changes are minor you just have to reroute and/or extend a few.
He said 700R4. I stand by my list. I did forget the E-brake cables, though, so thanks for that. I also forgot the shifter mod. And if he thinks he's going to make 450 HP, his current exhaust system likely won't support that, so yeah, "exhaust system mods." Most motorheads run screaming like little girls if there are electrons involved (how many posts start out "I suck at wiring..."?), so good luck with the wiring mods. The battery tray swaps to the other side of the car (and no, those bolts to the core support won't be rusty). That pretty much means a new engine harness.
He said 700R4. I stand by my list. I did forget the E-brake cables, though, so thanks for that. I also forgot the shifter mod. And if he thinks he's going to make 450 HP, his current exhaust system likely won't support that, so yeah, "exhaust system mods." Most motorheads run screaming like little girls if there are electrons involved (how many posts start out "I suck at wiring..."?), so good luck with the wiring mods. The battery tray swaps to the other side of the car (and no, those bolts to the core support won't be rusty). That pretty much means a new engine harness.
The shifter mod, crossmember, e-brake cables, are based on his transmission choice not the engine. Exhaust mods may be required no matter which engine he chooses. The battery tray does not need to be moved, just the wiring needs to be adapted. I do agree with you on the fact that a lot of people are scared to death about wiring changes, however there are ways to keep this simple don't ask me how I know.
I really do think I want to rebuild and stroke the 330 and put a 200r4 behind it. I need more info about what to look for in a cam, intake, and heads. Again, I’m wanting 450 to 475 hp but I plan to use it as a daily driver. I want a nice rumble with a noticeable lope but it needs to be manageable in traffic.
I really do think I want to rebuild and stroke the 330 and put a 200r4 behind it. I need more info about what to look for in a cam, intake, and heads. Again, I’m wanting 450 to 475 hp but I plan to use it as a daily driver. I want a nice rumble with a noticeable lope but it needs to be manageable in traffic.
There is no doubt that you can get that kind of power out of the 330, and I am sure that there are plenty of experts here that can help you get there. My concerns would be that it would cost you a fortune compared to dropping in a 455. There is no substitute for cubic engines. I would also be concerned about how it would behave in traffic.
That said, I think you could easily rebuild the 330 into a great stroker motor that would have a nice rumble and lope as you wish and still be manageable in traffic, but it might end up being in the 300-400 hp range. With a 200-4R, TH350 or TH400 behind it, I am sure it would be loads of fun to drive, too.
Cutlassefi's did a somewhat smaller overbore 350, 4" stroke, 422 ci with iron heads, unported, just the bowls opened with 2"/1.625" valves with proper springs, 9 to 1 compression and a smaller roller cam that put out 400+ hp and 500+ ft/lbs. The 2004R would need the billet forward drum and welded shaft at minimum with a good shift kit like CK Performance and their servo over 400 ft/lbs. You need to see what the max bore your 330 block will take and go slightly under that. Some blocks can go a lot oversize, some less if coolant wasn't maintained or core shift and the bores no being cast straight.
I have decided to rebuild my original 330 and I don’t think I need to stroke it. I don’t need it to be stupid fast. I do think I need to swap the trans while the motor is out, sump the 2sp Jetaway for a 200R4. So, I would love to hear suggestions for heads and intake.
Go with W31 valves with the bowls opened with a cutter and a Performer RPM intake. Don't forget to up the torque converter to a 2000+ stall, that along with the gear swap will help a lot. You can also go more aggressive on the cam. Egge has cast pistons, which will give lower than advertised compression. If your block can go to 4.065", two quality pistons are available from Mahle and CP to use along with the new Scat direct replacement connecting rods.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; November 19th, 2020 at 12:15 PM.
I have decided to rebuild my original 330 and I don’t think I need to stroke it. I don’t need it to be stupid fast. I do think I need to swap the trans while the motor is out, sump the 2sp Jetaway for a 200R4. So, I would love to hear suggestions for heads and intake.
Thanks!
Keep us posted! I am looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.
Ok, I did a compression test this morning.
1) 150
2) 145
3) 151
4) 141
5) 150
6) 140
7) 155
8) 149
So, I’m pretty close but the most of the passenger side is low and this is where I see the most smoke. What should the compression be on a high compression 330?
Here is a picture of the plugs.....
They all look about the same, a little wet I think.
Last edited by babailey; November 21st, 2020 at 09:55 AM.
I believe my compression should be 136 for a 10.25/1 330 ultra high compression engine. I am using a formula I found on another forum.....
lb compression = (10.25-1) X 14.7
So, all 8 cylinders are operating a little over that number and all are within 10% of each other.
Is there a better/different formula that I should be using?
Those numbers aren't terrible. I got 140 to 142 psi with a stock inside 76 350, 8 to 1, in extremely good shape with a 204/214 cam advanced 2 degrees. Bumping compression to 9.6 to 1 with the same cam was 170 to 175 psi. With 9 to 1 and a 214/214 cam degreed in was 150 psi. How is the oil pressure? A 2004R with a 2000+ stall with 3.42+ gears will feel like a race car even with the stock 330. The 2 spd gearing is awful, what rear gears do you have?
Is it safe to assume that my cylinder pressure is ok and that my issue (lots of grey/blue smoke when I pull away from a stop sign once she is warmed up) is in the heads?
Ok, I did a compression test this morning.
1) 150
2) 145
3) 151
4) 141
5) 150
6) 140
7) 155
8) 149
So, I’m pretty close but the most of the passenger side is low and this is where I see the most smoke. What should the compression be on a high compression 330?
Those numbers would be just fine with a low compression engine. But you and I are both 10.25:1
My car tested between 180-190 PSI and it runs strong. 100 PSI and below is considered a shot engine on the low compression version. Now take off the same difference on our engines and go from 190 down to 140 and I believe our engines would be shot as well.
I'm figuring you need a ring job, hence the blue smoke caused by excessive blowby.
Based on the numbers olds 307 was giving, I was afraid 150 was low for my engine. It was rebuilt 10 years ago but the guy that did it has passed away and I have no idea what was done wrong, right, or indifferent. So, I’m thinking that I take the heads off, inspect what I can, and hope I can get away with a new top end and new trans.
I really do think I want to rebuild and stroke the 330 and put a 200r4 behind it.
Nice, keeping an Olds, Olds powered is awesome. That 200-4R is going to make such a difference. I only wish your engine wasn't so tired so you could see the benefit of the 4 speed immediately...
Originally Posted by babailey
I need more info about what to look for in a cam, intake, and heads.
Your engines born in cam is a healthy one to begin with, unlike the 350s base auto cam. The Edelbrock Performer intake is considered a sideways move, besides looks and weight savings.
Originally Posted by babailey
I want a nice rumble with a noticeable lope but it needs to be manageable in traffic.
Coincidently, I refreshed an old thread on this exact subject recently. I would think the Comp Cams 275DE. Its a significant upgrade over your factory original.
"the 275DE, which pushes the .050-lift duration to 219/229 and the lift to .468/.488, but still with a 110-degree lobe separation angle. This cam has enough duration and lift that youll know its there. The idle has a good lope to it, but with 14.5 inches of vacuum at 750 rpm, its still docile enough for a daily driver. This cam would also work with a stock converter, but because it loses torque down low to make horsepower up high, it works better with a higher-stall converter " HotRod
The only problem is its a 20 year old grind now and the new version (275DEH) is .508 lift which is an issue with stock rocker arms... As they say you have to pay to play.
Originally Posted by babailey
Again, I’m wanting 450 to 475 hp but I plan to use it as a daily driver.
That's a lot of power, getting those specs with a 455 is challenging let alone a 330. I would think you will need a full performance build from a reputable performance shop to see numbers like that...
So, I assume getting the new cam grind means that I might as well go for a better flowing aluminum head with roller rockers?
On the HP issue, I am trying to quiet the kid in me that wants tons of power. I don’t need the power, I will not be racing this thing, I am trying to build a daily driver that looks and sounds nice and has enough power to get me away from a light without embarrassment. Honestly, I think the car is fast enough right now with it’s worn engine and wimpy trans (especially if I ditch the trans.
is the 200R4 trans a drop in replacement for the 2 sp Jetaway, or will I need to change the length of my drive shaft?
I believe the 2 spd is the same length, the crossmember will need to be in the TH400 position. Are the emergency cables attached to the trans crossmember? If so you will need TH400 cables or shorten them with U clamps. Your motor may have been rebuilt with low compression pistons and may be nowhere near 10.25 to 1. Not saying it doesn't need rebuilt. A leak down test and adding oil before the compression test can be helpful.
"With the ST300 lined up with the 200-R4, we verify a common overall length of 27 3/4". The main physical difference is the position of the transmission mount; the ST300's pad is 20 1/8 inches from the bellhousing while the 200-4R's is 26 13/16 inches from the bellhousing. That difference might appear to be a problem at first, but the TH400 also has its mount pat 26 13/16 inches from the bellhousing, and since our Buick was available with a TH400, the crossmember should mount in that position without a problem."
"Though we've outlined the swap of a 200-R4 in place of the ST300 two-speed in our oddball 340 - powered Buick, it will work just as well with Pontiac or Oldsmobile V-8s." HotRod
On the HP issue, I am trying to quiet the kid in me that wants tons of power. I don’t need the power, I will not be racing this thing, I am trying to build a daily driver that looks and sounds nice and has enough power to get me away from a light without embarrassment.
Have fun go for it !
The trans upgrade should help take care of that unless the engine really isn't itself. Once you verify the smoke issue and timing chain status, have at it.
"When we finished, the Buick was able to lunge from stoplights as well as loaf down the freeway sipping fuel." HotRod regarding the 200-4R swap.
Its a win win.
Originally Posted by babailey
Honestly, I think the car is fast enough right now with it’s worn engine and wimpy trans (especially if I ditch the trans.
I believe it, keep in mind if the smoke is more than just condensation and she is indeed tired it was born powerful. Tired and it can still move well. A TH350 or 200-4R will give you something your car never had. A real first gear, which will really wake up your car even with the 3.08 rear which is not terrible...
Originally Posted by babailey
So, I assume getting the new cam grind means that I might as well go for a better flowing aluminum head with roller rockers?
We are hitting the legendary "might as well's" these are limitless so its up to you.
I would say at a minimum the rockers need to be adjusted or replaced but honestly this is above my station.
I had a 455 very mildly built a long time ago but it did not go this far. I relied on my mechanic for suggestions. Just didn't know enough to have much of an opinion at the time. It was essentially a generic slight upgrade above stock... Cam specs were within the stock capabilities. Sold to an acquaintance before it ever made its way into one of my cars...
P.S. If I was in your shoes, after making sure the engine is healthy. I would look into a high performance version of the 200-4R along with a matching or slightly more aggressive torque converter. I wouldn't mess with aluminum heads, but if it hasn't been done to the originals already maybe the standard go to mod of a port and polish with 3 angle valve job. If your engine already received a generic rebuild you may have lost 10 HP gross. Your engine may still be around 250 HP net. That's plenty with the right drivetrain. The born in cam is a virtual match to the 1964 442s cam, so you are not lacking there. But if you want to upgrade that. I would not exceed factory lift limits. I would go with the old (circa the year 2000) 275DE or the like. That and full length headers could have you approaching 300 HP net. With the right drivetrain and tune a 3500 LB car will absolutely haul *** . Still not enough, go with 3.91 rear...
OK, I know I have been all over the place with intentions on this motor. Unfortunately, I take a step, get a little info and make a leap. I think I have enough info to make an almost fully informed decision now.
The 330 Ultra High Compression definitely needs to be completely rebuilt (she is burning oil and has very low compression for her designation).
The 2sp Jetaway needs to be replaced with a 200R4 and new torque converter (no sure if I can keep the Switch Pitch or not with the new trans).
The rear-end should be re-geared when the new trans is installed.
So, it looks like it is time for a whole new drive train (I might be able to keep the drive shaft). While I would love to build this 330 into a monster stroker motor, I do not need all that power, I'm too old to be a racer and I have proven in the past that if I have it, I can't keep my foot out of it LOL. I think I will be happy with a nice cruiser that has a descent rumble and somewhere close to factory power (350 to 375) maybe. I believe this is an easier target to achieve and will result in a well mannered car that doesn't require constant adjusting each time I drive it. I really do plan on this car being my daily driver. I have built engines in the past and I have access to a descent machine shop. I will await final decision on the engine until I tear the current motor apart and get an "all clear" from the machine shop that the block is worth building upon.
Original factory listed horsepower was 320 gross, getting 350 to 375 will take more than just a rebuild. Don't give up on your Jetaway until you get your engine up to snuff and see how it performs then. Make sure your variable pitch is working properly. Not saying that a 200r4 isnt an upgrade, I might do it myself, but mainly for the OD as I have a 3.23 rear axle.
See, I would go the opposite way from Cutlass Fan -- I'd leave the engine for the time being just to see how much that deeper first gear in the 200-R4 (plus a new rear-end gear in the range of 3.9-4.2 if you decide to go that far) wakes things up. Then you'll know how far you need to go with the engine to get where you want to be.
Who knows, with your compression being as even as it is, maybe you can just get by with a sharp tune and a good distributor curve.
Last edited by BangScreech4-4-2; November 26th, 2020 at 10:18 PM.
FWIW I would do 200-4R swap, then see what you think rear gear should be, likely in 3.4 to 3.9 range. To give you some idea my car w/ 3.90 runs 2300 @ 70mph, kid’s car tachs 1800 @ 70mph with a 3.08. How much highway driving do you plan? Do you presently have limited slip differential? You’re gonna want Ltd slip and don’t skimp on trans, overbuild it in case you get a little ambitious on the engine build later. Trans & gear mod will feel like you added 100 hp and will cost $3000-5000 depending on details and how much of the work you can do.
Engine - Recover from the drivetrain expenditure and enjoy driving the car some, the engine should be fine with a decent tune up. If you decide to go with a basic rebuild get working with your local guy but I would consult here and especially with Mark Remmel for some strategy and hard parts. If you get ambitious/aggressive with engine build it might be prudent to have Mark or one of the other Olds knowledgeable builders on here handle the machine work too. In between would be purchasing a reciprocating kit, cam, lifters and maybe head hdwe from Mark for your machinist to work with.
Don't neglect suspension integrity, some large sway bars and quicker steering box really improve (IMO) the feel of the car. Im a believer in front disc brakes if you’re on 4 wheel drums.
You can do this in manageable stages while retaining use of the car. Keep it fun and enjoyable.
Last edited by bccan; November 27th, 2020 at 05:40 AM.
See, I would go the opposite way from Cutlass Fan -- I'd leave the engine for the time being just to see how much that deeper first gear in the 200-R4 (plus a new rear-end gear in the range of 3.9-4.2 if you decide to go that far) wakes things up. Then you'll know how far you need to go with the engine to get where you want to be.
^^^THIS! Do the math. 1.76 first gear in the Junkaway vs 2.52 in the TH350 vs 2.74 in the 200-4R.
For those of you with the 330 engine and looking for an inexpensive upgrade piston, consider the Egge L2243-8 listed as replacement for the '65-'67 Olds 400 CID motor. Same wrist pin height and diameter as the dished 330 piston but with no dish. Requires cylinders bored to 4.00" (about 1/16") and end up with about a 340 CID motor.
For those of you with the 330 engine and looking for an inexpensive upgrade piston, consider the Egge L2243-8 listed as replacement for the '65-'67 Olds 400 CID motor. Same wrist pin height and diameter as the dished 330 piston but with no dish. Requires cylinders bored to 4.00" (about 1/16") and end up with about a 340 CID motor.
Yeah, all 64-90 Olds pistons except those in the 68-76 BBOs use the same compression height. On the other hand, it's probably a lot cheaper to just swap the 330 shortblock for a 350. You can even use the forged 330 crank. 350 pistons are a lot easier to come by, especially forged ones. Those Egge pistons are cast.
I agree that the 200r4 will perform better. All I'm saying is that since he needs to rebuild his engine anyways due to oil burning, do that first. Maybe the OP will be happy with the performance after the rebuild. If not then he can change trannies.
November 13th, 2020, 07:57 PM
