70cutty

This is my 2nd rebuild on my 350 in 2 years. 9.7:1 compression bigger cam nothing super high performance.
1st ran fine fine for 600 miles than spun a bearing. Now rebuild again I broke in the cam, took it for a spin around the block pulling back in the driveway started knocking, different this time sound more metal to metal looked at the flexplate there is some light scuffing on the teeth. I am gonna check it today, hoping it's the starter hitting the flexplate.
But I tell you this If my engine failed again I am going Chevy crate. Fu*k this, all the money and time wasted in the effort to keep it Olds. Should've done the first time, 383 alumininum heads 5k run ready.
After reading numerous post here and other olds forums I cannot believe the number of failed builds.
I have a 69 Chevelle with a rebuild 10:1 454 that was done about 12 years ago that I abuse over and over still runs strong, I have a 27 ford rat rod with 327 10.25:1 that I abuse the crap out of. They both rev up to 6k rpm with no problems.
sorry if I seem a little frustrated here, I am not I am fuc**ing pissed off to the point where I just wanna yank the bitch out and call Summit to send me a crate.

joe_padavano

There's nothing fundamentally different between a Chevy short block and an Olds short block (or Ford or Mopar, for that matter). Sorry, but proper machining, quality parts, cleanliness, assembly technique, good oil pump, quality break-in oil, etc are all that should be required.

oldcutlass

Hopefully it's nothing major. Btw over the years we've all had failed expensive engines for one reason or another, so I feel your pain.

MX442

I wonder how many failures are due to installing non drilled galley plug at the distributor?

pogo69

x2.... even 100,000 dollar drag car engine bust after a few minutes running without going down the track....its the way it goes sometimes

jpc647

Um... what's that?

joe_padavano

Probably zero spun bearing failures.

A non-drilled gallery plug will cause a distributor gear problem but you'll still get oil to the mains and rods. Now, FORGETTING to install the plug has caused many problems.

Octania

EXACTLY

Bearing clearance? What's that?
Side play? What's that?

These add up.

MX442

Shred a distributor geAr and I don't doubt that you'd not have bearing issues down the road .. Replacement expansion and oil plug kits don't have the plug drilled. Chevy builders don't know this. But yes, bearing clearances have an effect.

cutlassefi

No different than running a sacrificial bronze gear. It should be caught in the filter and/or settle in the pan.

I'll go with improper machining and/or assembly techniques.

joe_padavano

Shred a distributor gear and the engine stops running long before the bearings go bad. You also kinda get a hint that there's a problem. The OP mentioned nothing about distributor gear problems.

70cutty

No doubt there is no difference when they were made, but here we are 40-50 years later trying to rebuild them with aftermarket parts due to unavailability of Original parts. There is a huge, incomparable difference in aftermarket parts choice and availability between chevy(or ford) and olds.
The amount of money and time spent into researching aftermarket parts for Chevy and Ford engines can't compare to Olds engines. I am all for keeping it OLDS but I am getting tired of working on this car and would like to drive for a change.
I am a member of couple different forums and the number of failed rebuilds is staggering on this forum and oldspower alone. It doesn't matter whether was rebuild by "reputable" and known Olds engine builder or in somebody's garage they are prone to failing. It seems like (maybe due to poor oiling) 9 out 10 times it's the bearings.
While I got lucky and the noise from my engine was cracked flexplate I will never be as comfortable driving my Cuttlass as I am in my other cars. It's like somebody here said "It's not whether is going to break but when"

cutlassefi

And there are a lot that run just fine, and for a long time, mine has.
My guess is that some 'Olds' enhusiasts seem to cut more corners than maybe some others do. Maybe because of the costs involved, not sure. But nonetheless I'll stick with my original diagnoses. Something was done incorrectly from the get go.

lemoldsnut

Was this your first and second times doing a rebuild? A broken flex plate is usually caused by the engine being set on a concrete floor with the flex plate on or it being caught while either installing or removing the engine. Or not being tightened correctly. That can happen on any engine regardless of brand. Building and engine is a very precise process. It requires lots of time and careful attention to detail. Not to be hurried. Did you plastigauge every bearing? Did you tap each and every hole and bolt to make sure they were extremely clean so to get accurate torque settings? Did you clean the block extremely? Tapping each hole and making sure all surfaces were cleaned and correctly prepared? Did you have the crank machined? Did you have the rods resized and magnafluxed? Cleanliness is extremely important or I would not say it so much. Did you prime the oil system prior to the first start up? What oil are you using? Many like to use synthetic. Some cam manufacterers won't warranty a flat tappet cam using synthetic unless you use a zinc additive. All very important stuff.
This is true no matter what brand of engine you build.

oldcutlass

70Cutty - I for one am relieved your issue was minor. Get it fix'd and enjoy.

70cutty

Thank you. Took the flexplate pf my 455 and replaced the bad one. Took it out for a drive, it ran really nice.

MX442

I'm glad you got it fixed and wasn't engine issues.

joe_padavano

Actually, I've had a broken flexplate happen twice, and both times it was because the bellhousing bolts loosened up, causing the flexplate to, ah, FLEX.

That's operator error, unfortunately.

coppercutlass

Fwiw. My last engine I thought failed on me. but im starting to think it was my converter making the noises I thought was rod knock. Even after I took my engine apart I did find some alarming issues but up until I pulled that engine out it ran perfect and it even had great oil psi. Im only finding this out now after I put in a new engine and im hearing noises again in the same rpm. It's the nature of the beast sometimes I had a little dead realible high 13 sec 350 olds that I gave to my dad to build a new more powerful 350 but I ran out of money cut some corners and it was short lived. Although it was short lived it performed great and put up some good numbers considering the set up. now that I have an engine I put some coin into im super paranoid., specially with a new house 2 dogs and a fiancé who wants to get married soon money isn't what it was when I was living under my parents roof. im debating on going to ls power not necessarily because it's cheap but because I know it's time prove engine that has technology behind it and will run good numbers almost stock in my car and will last many many trouble free miles I been wanting a new truck but maybe a loan for an ls swap is a better choice and I keep my Saturn as my dd. Also after a good friend of mine told me he was going to a drc motor. I started to think why not just go ls. The technology is there so why not. I feel you frustration and I also have the same un easy feeling when I drive my car even from day 1. A factory engine is only original once and the way I drive my car it can fail at any given point so to speak. I might have only put 10k on my last engine but I beat the living tar out of it.

captjim

This would be the key phrase. I built 2 355s that I beat on hard. One was a 9 to 1 355 that ran 12.7 with nitrous and CAST pistons. Still running in Joes car. My second is a 10.25 to 1 355. Runs great 3 years later. On both I used good machining and assembly proceedures. Guys like you who constantly spout "budget builds" are the biggest problem with Olds engines and the Olds community. You go on an on about your "$1800 rebuilt 13 second Olds" and guys think that is a reasonable budget for a quality engine, which it isn't. Go run your LS, it will be nice to be rid of your poor advice which causes more harm than anything. IMHO.

coppercutlass

Jim what are you hung up on. Im not bitter about it in the least bit. I had fun . I spent cheap money for a cheap thrill. Now with a house and more responsibilities it's harder to play like that. My new 355 is running great I did it on a budget And I have all the pieces for another 355 build. You seem to think my engine had some catastrophic failure but it was still running and it ran great for what it was on the budget I had. Both my previous engines one which is my dad's car and still runs great. My current engine runs great as well. Who knows maybe i'll finish up the nitrous build Im still debating it. You are just mad over whatever personal reason. the fact it is bad advice or not I do all my own work am willing to learn at my expense to gain my own experience and I don't complain when something goes wrong. As far as im concerned it's all been a success. sure I got 1 season out of a 350 I built with cut corners but it ran amazing and I built that bottom end fully knowing it had to come out. How is it that I block you and you seriously go out of your way to see what I post. PATHETIC!!!!! I did both of those builds before I was on this forum which is the only one im on I did it all my self with very little help from anyone else. I found out what works what wont and how long and how hard I can push it. I had to find out how to tune the engine with nothing but car craft articles I had to find out how to make my car faster by trying different things out. For that im proud and I did all this before I was 21. now 24. I got a long way to go but im doing it on my terms my way. Im not afraid to fall before I walk.

captjim

I think guys like you ARE the problem. "The essence of hot-rodding is making what you have work", bragging on how cheaply you did something, blah, blah, blah. Bottom line; you get what you pay for whether it is a Ford, Chevy, or Olds. Yes, Olds engines cost a bit more to build, as do Buicks and Pontiacs. We get it. Put a crate 383 or LS in yoyur car if you want to, I'm not telling anyone what to do. But there is NOTHING inherintly inferior with an Olds engine (except, IMHO, the 403 and late 400, which are poor designs). Do crappy work and use cheap parts and any engine can fail.

BTW, if you are "blocking" me how did you read my post??? LOL You can block me but I still read your posts and will respond as I see fit.

coppercutlass

Jim I never said olds engines are inferior. My reasoning for going ls is well I want something different modern and the fact you can put 400k miles on an ls is nice. It's also from a financial point of view with a house , and more responsibilities at work it's becoming harder to tinker with my stuff. I been working for lexus for 8 months now and I drove the isf and man that thing is fast can corners is capable of running 12's stock and it has modern technology I was floored. My taste in what I want is changing. I wont drop a run of the mill 383 . I see the ls series engines as a true technological advancement with efi and wayyyyy more modern designed heads etc. that's the only way I will do away with my olds engine in my olds. I wont even consider an lt1. Also problem for what im doing what I want on my terms with my olds and im having a blast. I share my personal experiences as they are people can take em fwiw.

captjim

That's fine, put an LS in it and leave here and go to an LS forum, everyone wins.

coppercutlass

That's fine jim I still got an olds and I do body work i'll stil be around. it does not change the fact I ran high 13's for under 3k and that motor still lives !!!!!!! ha You seem to have no issue contributing yet you are getting rid of your olds powered buick and all you talk about is the two olds motors you built.

Sampson

Here we go again!

For what it is worth. If you suspect a rod knock and want to narrow it down a bit. If you pull the plug wires one by one the knock will stop on the offending cylinder if it is in fact a rod. If it does not stop when you have pulled all the plug wires one by one then chances are the problem is elsewhere.

cutlassefi

Jesus Christ, was a post this long really necessary? How many times have you posted this exact same stuff?
Do an LS or whatever, who cares, just post something worthwhile.

coppercutlass

Don't be mad mark go take a nap and relax. Im just saying I feel his frustration. It also seems 2 of the 3 stooges came out tonight.

joe_padavano

The only problem I have with the "chubby is so much cheaper" mentality is that no one ever totals up the costs of the collateral damage caused by the swap - what else has to change?

Yes, the LS motor are outstanding designs and make horsepower very easily. I just don't want to be like the other 99% of the cars at cruise night. That's my opinion, my car, my money. Anyone else is free to do whatever they want. All I can say is that with few exceptions I skip right past the belly-button motors at shows and cruise night, because they bore me. I'd rather see a 426 hemi in an Olds than an SBC. At least that would be interesting.

coppercutlass

Joe that is one thing I get a lot of attention for. I usually pull up to a cruise night and get a lot of attention from the nice lopey idle the engine makes., and people flip when I tell them it's and olds and sb. I strictly want the ls for selfish purposes lol.

olds 307 and 403

Buy an 80's Cutlass to throw an LS in, they are worth nothing or next to it. I too dread sbc swaps, I don't mind unique engine's in an Olds or any other make. I did a 350 Rocket with TBI in my 94 4x4 because I love the Olds 350, plus it kills the blown swirl port sbc 350 it replaced. I found a great 76 350 for $120 while a do a proper, take a long time rebuild on the 403. Timing gear slack, but no missing teeth and the crank and bearings are very good. New gaskets, timing set and cam swap, see how it runs. The anti freeze that came out looks great. Unlike the last 76 350 that ate the shim head gaskets. There are quite a few failed sbc builds out there too. Shitty machine work, Quaz's build for example, causes many problems. Add in a girdle and it adds more machine work that can go wrong.

captjim

Calling Mark and I "stooges" is hysterical, coming form a goofball like you. Not sure why it is OK for you to constantly call me names??

We have talked many times at the shop about this. Not too long ago, hot-rodders were the primary customer, now it is stock, resto, and racers. Crate engines are the reason why, and I get it. Plop down your money, buy an assembled, dyno'd engine with the dist installed, timing set, add 12 volts and play. It does have it's advantages.

I posted this at Oldspower, a build cost for a nice street 355, around $5000 assembled,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...arts-list.html
and I got CREAMED! Now, I can deal with Nimrods like coppercutlass, but the owner jumped in and had a good time deriding and making fun of me. I left, feeling that if this is the attitude of the board owner, I was in the wrong place. He has since seen the risk in doing engine builds half -azzed. Mark has posted some nice builds and I ask the cost so guys will know the real cost of a quality build. Quality parts and machine work along with a good plan result in a reliable engine, regardless of the make. It isn't rocket science, no pun intended.

BTW, for you guys who get irritated with me and copper, read the link posted and this,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...fuel-line.html
and decide for yourself.

oldcutlass

Don't shoot the messenger here. None of us know everything, and all of us have been known to engage our mouths with our brain out of gear. I agree sometimes Copper has trouble expressing himself, but when he does not know something generally he asks. Lighten up on him, there is no reason to constantly nit pick his statements. If he says something that is repetitive just skip over it. IMHO you and Mark seem to be constantly trolling for reasons to jump his ****.

Jim I thought you did a great job on that engine build thread for a more realistic cost account of budget building and SBO. It helped me a lot to decide how to go about what to do with my car. My only issue is there is not a machine shop here in "Mayberry" that I would trust doing machine work on anything including a lawn mower. The other thread about the fuel line was ridiculous from all sides.

In the 4 years I've been on here I've read about at least 2 dozen engine failures for a multitude of reasons. Likewise on a Mopar site, and a popular Chevelle site, I see similar issues. My conclusion is it happens, it's a mechanical piece of machinery and unfortunately they break. The one consistent in this hobby, it's always been expensive to play whether in todays or yesterdays dollars.

I like this site, and most times people are very cordial. I for one would like to keep it that way.

captjim

I disagree completely regarding a fresh engine build. If a guy spends $5000 on a mild small block and it fails in anything less than an all-out racing application, that is not acceptable.

Regarding copper, the posts stand on their own. I did just receive a PM from him calling me many profane names and stating that he purposely posts in order to be argumentative. The phrase was,
"...the fact I do like to rub it in...
so, decide whatever.

oldcutlass

My point was not that it's acceptable and I agree with anything short of all out racing is unacceptable. My point was that it happens to all makes, not just Olds. It happens to owner assembled, shop assembled, and factory crate engines. The big difference is with a GM crate engine there's a warranty. In owner and a lot of shop assembled engines sometimes your just screwed.

On the Copper thing, just an observation.

coppercutlass

Rubbing it in is not argumentative in the least bit. That just means I like to show off in a way or in my case I just like to put it out there there is alternatives. Many people have had engines fail upon break in. Here I build some backwoods stuff and it runs and I beat the crap out of it and it takes a while for it to break .That's an example of rubbing it in. Rubbing it in has nothing to do with being argumentative. Look the phrase up. the whole sentence went like this .

I seem to have really struck a nerve with you maybe it's the fact I do like to rub it in . To elaborate that better I like to rub it in towards those who strongly dislike what I do and how I do it . Hint Hint . Im not afraid of members finding out what I said because I stand behind it., but atleast if you are going to try to throw me under the bus don't do a half @$$ed job of it. Really the phrase rubbing it in comes of as argumentative to you. Rubbing it in falls more along the lines of showing off. I just do it in a subtle way like my nitrous build Im proving that budget builds can be built but it takes time of scrounging and sourcing good used parts ., not all builds are equal but im on a roll with that one on scoring good deals., for under 1000 I have everything I need minus machining which im going to do it all up and still be in the 3k region to put it safely. < that's rubbing it in. Im sure you probably hate that one so does mark. I guess to someone like you using anything you can against me will work just like many of the post you try to thrash me on. I will speak up when I need to because I wont be belittled by people like you or mark. I said this before and I will say it again. No one I mean NO one besides you two guys have ever had an issue with what I post. I guess you two guys have the same mentality you are god gift to this forum.

captjim

I agree with that.

oldcutlass

And you, Copper, give it a rest. Quit adding fuel to the fire, there's no reason to keep talking after the close.

I agree somewhat with Jim and Mark, if you've proven anything, you've proven that an Olds engine can be whipped together and still withstand quite a bit of abuse.

jpc647

I agree. It's either due to the cost, or the scarce availability of the parts, and the added frustration between the two.

captjim

This whole "Scarcity of parts" thing is kinda over-stated, IMO. Intake, header, ignition, cam choices are plentiful. On the big blocks, there are quite a few choices for internal engine parts including stroker kits. Less so on the SBO, it would be nice to have an affordable replacement rod and better piston choices, but still using what is available and 400 SBC parts, it really isn't at all difficult to put a nice combo together.

It isn't the "cost" either in my opinion, at least to the point that it is that much more than a Chebby. A little bit, yes, maybe 15% more. The problem is, and this isn't just my opinion, Olds guys are notorious for being cheap bastards. Go over to Buick.com and look at those guys. Buicks are more expensive to build than Oldsmobiles, the difference is those guys spend the money. Ask any vendor, engine shop, or anyone else in the field and you will get a similar response.

Give Mark $7,000 and he will build you a complete, pan-to-carb, broken in dyno tested SBO stroker that will make 400 HP and be reliable for years. Very few of the guys on this board will do that. They cobble together a bunch of crap in a fragmented build then complain when it fails. Not saying the OP did that in this instance, but it is a common occurance.