FlyingV5150

Hey all, have ANOTHER issue i needed help with. My 72 cutlass S was in the shop because the oil drain plug was just spinning, stuck in there. No way i would have been able to get the pan out, so i had to take it to a garage. Finally got the oil pan replaced and the oil changed.

Now though it sounds like there is a loud ticking noise on the drivers side. I believe it might be a lifter, though I'm not sure. I had no idea what oil the PO had in there, as i have only had the car a few months. I gave them 5w-30 to put in because when i bought it, it was still kind of chilly out and after reading the owners manual, it seemed ok to put in. Could something like this be causing the lifter to tick, if say something like 10w-30 or 10w-40 was in there?

Also, i know some people flush their engines with different products to try and clear out any sludge or debris that might be causing it to make noise. Would this be something you guys recommend? And if so what product should i use?

I haven't removed the valve cover myself to check it out yet, the lifter could just be failed i suppose. Though its weird its just doing it now after the oil change, whats your guys thoughts?

Fun71

Have you checked to ensure the oil level is at the FULL mark on the dipstick?

FlyingV5150

Yes, while I was there, when they were showing me the noise it was making, I checked the dipstick and it appeared full. They had an oil pressure gauge hooked up as well and it was showing a steady 60 psi while idling.

442scotty

Seeing as how you were at a garage what did they think it was? They should have a good idea... being experts and all.. or so one would think..

coppercutlass

Well since these old engines can make noise and diagnosing is totally diffrent than new cars. I would venture to say maybe he wanted a little unput before paying to diagnose it. Here is my 2 cents. Try to isolate where the noise is coming from with a pice of rubber hose or stethiscope or a screwdriver with the plastic end not the sharp end to your ear. You could also add some marvel mystery oil to your oil you might have a lifter that's possibly sticky from time to time. If you want to thicken up your current oil just add some lucas oil additive vs. Dumping new oil. Just a few tips and tid bits. Tracing noises like this can be a bit of a paint. Also if they did the oil pan did they tilt or lift the engine at all. Could be exhaust ? Just a thought., good luck with the fix.

rjohnson442

If they pulled the motor. check for manifold gasket leaks and pull the dipstick out see if it stops.

m371961

X2 on exhaust leak

Killian_Mörder

He went in for an oil plug and got out with a noise that wasn't there when he brought the car in Hmmmmmmm...

FlyingV5150

The more i consider it, the more i think i might just take it back and look over things myself, they really haven't been what i would consider professional. I might try what copper recommended, put some zinc additive and some Marvel in there and see how that works. If that fails, i'll take off the valve cover and have a look see.

hookem horns

Hope it works out with the shop, hate paying someone to do a job and then having to redo it myself anyway. Happens way too often these days, people take no pride in their work. (Rant over)

Take copper's advice to "listen" for the source. 5W-30 is pretty thin, so maybe do an oil change to 10W-40 or 15W-40. Cheap and quick experiment (I think a jug of Rotella is <$15 at wallyworld) if you leave the filter since it was just changed. I had a tired old Ford truck that ticked and smoked on 10W-30 but was fine with 15W-40.

coppercutlass

My 2002 saturn is like that. Its recommended oil is 5 W30 and even with 10 w 40 it makes noise. Its happy with 20w50 lol. 200k and still kicking.

FlyingV5150

Update guys...seems like i might have a bigger issue than just a lifter. The garage pulled the valve covers off and discovered an issue. It looks like the whole driver side head has been getting very little oil, it looks kind of dark, like it might have burnt some oil. The passenger side head looks perfectly fine.

What could be causing the whole head to be getting restricted oil flow?

m371961

JMHO, Have you checked any of the above, or is the garage just digging right into it?
Have they even used a stethescope? Olds don't oil like a SB chevy, don't let them think oil should be spraying everywhere.
Somebody here can correct me, but on an older engine sometimes one side is cleaner because of the way the crankcase ventilation works.
Just saying go easy, I have seen engines replaced or rebuilt for something as simple as a cracked rocker arm.
Unless you have the money and desire just to go ahead and redo it.

FlyingV5150

I would love to save some money and have this be something simple. Definitely would prefer not to have the engine rebuilt if its not necessary. They aren't really tearing into it yet, just took the valve covers off, took the pushrods out and tried to lube up the lifters (What they said they did at least). Still making the noise though.

oldcutlass

Do you have pictures or a video of this. I've seen more sludge build up on one side or another before. But the engine cannot choose which side to pump oil to or not.

FlyingV5150

I do have pictures but they were taken with my crappy phone's camera. It is hard to tell in the pictures but the drivers side head is definitely darker and more burnt looking.

This is the drivers side
0318141648_zps8c7a0b8b.jpg

This is the passengers side

oldcutlass

I think it has more to do with the flow air through the engine and which side the pcv is on. It draws air in one side and it flows out the other through the pcv. It does not look that bad, it just needs to be cleaned up. If you have a flow of oil over the rockers then it's doing what its supposed to. You just need to figure out why you have a noisy lifter. Usually its a bad rocker and perch assy, but it could also be concaved lifters. If the engine has not been rebuilt it can be a combination of both. In some instances its a bent push rod. Olds rockers are non adjustable.

Sugar Bear

The passenger side looks so clean that it may have been apart for repairs such as rocker arms, supports or towers. Possibly a head gasket replacement or a valve job on one side only?

The driver side is not dirty enough to be of concern solely from a cleanliness perspective. Suggest trying to tell which is ticking or feels loose and inspect the rockers, pushrods and supports for wear replacing worn components. If you pull the rockers pushrods etc. keep them in order so they go back in the same position.

X2 on trying 15W-40 diesel rated oil for a while.

Does the drivers side get any oil to it? The oil comes up through the pushrods not through the cylinder head. Look in the pushrods to see if they are getting clogged with sludge.

FlyingV5150

I know sometimes if a lifter is bad, you might be able to press down on the pushrod and it will go in the lifter by hand, without any tool assistance. Is this true in every case or not always? Just wondering because i tried this and they all seemed solid.

They guy who runs the garage doesn't rebuild engines there, i guess he has someone do it for him. He had this guy take a look and he was saying it is a piston making the noise, could this also be true?

Would a video of the engine running and the noise help you guys in determining the cause? If it will, i can do that.

coppercutlass

Hmmm something does not add up. If it didn't make the noise before and now it does it should not be making it at all. Did they install the oil pick up correctly. I know they replaced your pan so maybe they moved the pick up and did not put it back in its place. I ran a 307 for a few seconds dry/no oil and it sounded horrible. I accidently left the oil pump rod out. If your engine made no noises before you took it to the shop there is no reason they should start making noise out of the blue.

FlyingV5150

I think they put it back in correctly, i mean i cant be certain but when they had the oil pressure gauge hooked up to it, it seemed to be reading steady at i believe around 60 psi. I assume this would mean its getting oil.

I agree copper, it doesn't make sense to me either that its doing this now. Another reason i wish i had the know how, equipment, and time to do this stuff myself...to make sure its done right. Because i cant be sure what they did.

rjohnson442

Have the shop run it with the covers off and post a vid if you can. When I pulled my motor to do the oil pump the dipstick didn't seat right when I reinstalled it and was tapping the crank on the way around, sounded like a driver side lifter because it resonates up the tube. only other thing I can think of is a pieces of the old threads got past the pick-up screen and the motor ate it.

FlyingV5150

Got a video up, unfortunately my camera was being unruly and only recording for 10-15 seconds at a time. So hopefully this is enough to give you guys and idea of how it sounds. It sounds even louder in person.


Didn't sound anything like this before i took it in. I gave the garage the 15w40 to put in along with some zinc additive. After observing the engine as it was running it does look like that side of the engine is getting oil flow through the pushrods. So I'm stumped...

Greg Rogers

Sure does sound like a rocker slapping. Can you hold the handle end of a hammer or piece of wood or something against each rocker arm one at a time when it is running? The noise should change when you get the right one. Also I like to stick a 3 ft long or so piece of 5/16 or 3/8" vacuum hose in my ear ( not too far!!) and the other end on the rockers as it is running. You can hear it when you're on it.

rjohnson442

X2 loose rocker or at the worst collapsed lifter and the pushrod is slapping on the rocker. Bent pushrod maybe if ran for too long but doubt it... you should be able to pinpoint which one it is with the valve cover off as stated above. best of luck!

Sugar Bear

Sounds like valvetrain. Try listening with a stethoscope or hose as suggested to figure out which one is causing the problem.

Another way, with the engine off, is to look at the rockers from the perspective of one cylinder at a time, on each individual cylinder when one is open the other one should be fully closed. Check an arm on the quiet side that is closed to see how much play there is and then check every arm in the closed position on the noisy side to see if any feel loose. Rotate the engine by hand to position the arms to the closed position.

To check for bent pushrods, remove them keeping them in order, by which arm they go to and which end is up then roll them individually across a flat surface such as a piece of glass. Straight ones will roll smoothly, bent ones will hop or skip when rolled.

If you find a loose one and the rocker, pivot and pushrod are ok then a lifter may have collapsed.

johnnyjaws

were u there during the whole repair or did one of those guys take ur car out for a joy ride and beat the hell out of it

69ishHoliday

That noise sounds pretty hard on the audio post. My car with open headers didn't sound like much recorded on a phone. I've turned a rod bearing in my younger days and it is a pretty hard knock. I think you need to have another party diagnose what happened to it while it was in the first shop for an oil change. Just my opinion. The shop should carry liability insurance in case it is worse than a basic valvetrain problem.

oldcutlass

It does sound like a rocker, but with phone audio it's tough. Look for a broken perch or valve spring. You can rotate the engine by hand until each valve is closed and try pushing the pushrod end of the rocker down and see which one gives easily that would possibly be one way to isolate a collapsed lifter. Check the pushrods to see if one is bent. You may have to take the plunge and pull the intake to check your cam and lifters.

tonycpe

that's my guess on how it started,, should not be that difficult to pinpoint the problem

FlyingV5150

UPDATE!!

Just wanted to update you guys. I had the garage put in the 15w40 and a zinc additive and it was still making the noise. Finally, i just got sick of the garage letting my car sit around and them not touching it for weeks, so i took it home, ticking and all. That was yesterday evening. I also added alittle less than half a quart of Marvel to the oil. I drove it back and forth from school on the highway and it kind of sounded like the noise was starting to go away. It was getting dimmer and less noticeable, so i thought maybe if it was a lifter, the marvel and such was doing its job.

So today i decided to change the spark plugs since those were another thing i wasn't sure of the last time they were changed. I buggered a spark plug wire trying to get it out so i bought a new one and hooked it on the distributor. I started the car and it was idling really funny and the noise was still present. I pressed down on the wire i just hooked on the distributor to make sure it was fully seated and surprisingly...the distributor shift down. It wasn't fully installed in the engine!! The noise immediately stopped after this happened.

The only reason i can think this happened is maybe the shop left the distributor in when they took the engine out to swap the pan and maybe it caught on something and came out alittle. I'm not sure...but now i have other problems.

I went to drive it around the block and at the first stop sign i got too, the engine stalled and the Gen and Oil lights both came on. I had to put it in park and start it again, which it did with no problem. But it stalled a second time when i pulled back up to the house. Seems like as long as i was giving it gas it was ok...but why would the Oil pressure light come on?

Do you guys think driving around with the distributor like that stripped the gear on either the camshaft or distributor? Maybe i should check my oil for metal shavings? Perhaps built up on the oil pickup screen?

Also, i forgot to mention but i had the garage install a new fuel pump too, maybe something is wrong with that? I was really happy for about ten minutes once i figured out what was wrong...then miserable again once that happened. Need help please.

starfire

The oil and gen light came on because when the car stalled the ignition was still in the run position. This is normal behavior. I'm assuming that when you started the car back up the lights went back off.

FlyingV5150

Yes, that is correct starfire.

starfire

Oh, and I know you've probably already figured this out, but never, ever, ever, take a car to that garage again

FlyingV5150

Amen starfire....Amen

coppercutlass

Check timing. If you pushed it down then it turned as it went down due to the curvature of the dist. gear.

oldcutlass

X2 on what Copper suggests, I will add maybe go through and refresh with a complete tune up. You don't have to replace the parts, just inspect, clean, and adjust. Check the cap and distributor housing for cracks.

FlyingV5150

Timing and idle adjusted, no more stalling, thanks for all your guys suggestions, i greatly appreciate it.