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I am finally getting back my 358 short block tomorrow, a year and a month. I have 4 different sets to choose from. I am planning on using iron #6 heads and my Performer cam. One head is 62CC, the other 64cc, previous owner knicked a deck in storage and got one cleaned, why there is a variation, wanting 66 to 68cc for under 9.5 to 1 compression. Heads were fully rebuilt with upgrades, better springs, 2.07" intake valves, bowls opened and positive seals with maybe 5000 km. The block is very close to 0 deck, .016" was removed to square it with a 4.100" bore 10cc Mahle forged pistons, Molnar rods and 330 crank. I have Mr.Gasket MLS .040" in a 4.100" bore but I plan on keeping them for a possible aluminum head swap. Or are they OK with used but previously milled iron heads? I have 3 other sets, Mr.Gasket Ultraseal .045" that mentions painting the metal side with two coats of aluminum paint. The other sets are .042" Felpro Blue and .040" Mahle regular head gaskets. I am learning towards the Mr.Gasket. 045" so I will have to polish the chambers less. Just strange that one side is all metal, anyone use them?
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Aug 17, 2023 at 06:26 PM.
You cant go wrong with the Fel Pro blue gaskets. The .002" difference in thickness will not be a factor.
I would have the other head milled to get the cc's the same on both. I would leave them the way they are. The little bit of extra compression should not really be an issue.
If you use the Mr Gasket ones I would not "paint" them with anything unless the instructions say so. Most gaskets have a coating on them that is meant to flow and seal once heated up.
The Mahle gaskets are Victor. They are as good as any of the others.
Also, the third gasket down from the top in your first picture appears to have a much smaller bore size ? Are you sure it is correct for a 350 ?
Really .027" Cometic with 0 deck? Bill, the head gaskets vary a lot in bore size, which does effect compression some what. The Mr.Gasket is 4.270", the MLS Mr.Gasket is 4.100" and I never measured the Mahle, must be the ones you are talking about. Supposedly a complete gasket set for a 330 through 455. Felpro are what 4.230", I believe? Not against running them, they may be a tiny bit out of thr hole, quench may end up perfect. Yes, those Mr.Gasket say to coat the metal side with aluminum paint, two coats. When I bought these heads, I CCd them, measured guide clearance, .003" and see what was done. The previous owner told me he accidentally nicked the deck in storage and got it milled, which why they vary. He was very honest, actually more work like the bowls opened with a cutter and positive seals added, well worth $400. This project has ran massively over budget. I am way over 5K for this short block alone, no more machine work! To fix my mistakes and the other machine shops boo boos, they decided it is worth $2270 more! If I do any machine work, it will go to ABC in Regina. But that will be the 403 stroker project, have a better block for it now. So I will spend a few hours polishing chambers to CC where I want them to be. SEFI is going on this motor, just need lines, fuel pump, thinking Holley drop in module for my stock tank and a Terminator X/Max to control it.
The Mahle MLS ones I have here measure 4.200 I think it is the lighting in your picture that makes the other ones look like the bore is smaller.
I think you are making a huge mistake not milling the one head to match the other one. It may cause intake manifold sealing issues. Also 2 different length pushrods unless you are using an adjustable valve train but even then it wont really be right. You have spent a lot of time and money to do this right. Why cheap out and cut corners now on the head ???
I would stay away from the MLS gaskets unless the heads and block were freshly milled with the correct finish.
Will see once I mock up how close it is with the non adjustable valve train. The Performer cam is currently working fine with these heads on my 403, the bottom end, not so much. As long as the lifters don't bottom out, good enough, I will check. Factory was .017" head gaskets and .025"+ in the hole. If I use the .045" or .042" with 0 deck, basically the same minus the head milling. The intake needed the Turkey tray or shim head gaskets but the RPM, was milled for straightness when the SEFI rails were added. Wait time is horrendous at machine shops here, a year and a month wait for this short block. Close to year at the last machine shop and **** wasn't done and not right. I have multiple sets of adjustable roller rocker arms, if need be, will see if it is necessary. I could wait for the new Edelbrock heads but $3500+ Canadian plus push rods is a tough pill to swallow, if they actually release them.
I thought he said "The block is very close to 0 deck"
Either way you are correct in that this entire conversation really does not mean much without measuring the actual assembled deck hgt. The Mahle pistons are about .020" taller than the stock ones and we dont know what length rods he is using.
Rod length is stock, Molnar direct replacement aftermarket. Dale, I will measure it when I get it home. These Mahle forged pistons have a taller compression height, 1.625" compared to the Speedpro, factory and definitely much taller than the cast replacement pistons. The second machine shop asked if the block was milled excessively, supposedly .016". Check the link below. https://www.us.mahle.com/media/usa/m...bo-webpage.pdf
Will see once I mock up how close it is with the non adjustable valve train. The Performer cam is currently working fine with these heads on my 403, the bottom end, not so much. As long as the lifters don't bottom out, good enough, I will check. Factory was .017" head gaskets and .025"+ in the hole. If I use the .045" or .042" with 0 deck, basically the same minus the head milling. The intake needed the Turkey tray or shim head gaskets but the RPM, was milled for straightness when the SEFI rails were added. Wait time is horrendous at machine shops here, a year and a month wait for this short block. Close to year at the last machine shop and **** wasn't done and not right. I have multiple sets of adjustable roller rocker arms, if need be, will see if it is necessary. I could wait for the new Edelbrock heads but $3500+ Canadian plus push rods is a tough pill to swallow, if they actually release them.
not sure your calculations are correct. Where did you get the .016” was removed from the deck number?
if that’s what they told you they removed, you aren’t zero deck. Did they give you a final deck height measurement?
The first machine shop decked it .016" to square it up. What is your guess where the pistons will sit below deck? See if you are right. I will report the clearances etc when I pick it up, a 3+ hour drive, so later today. They better have some info for every clearance to justify $2270+!
I should have been more specific, with this timing set on the non advanced key way, has 3, it is at 107 or 107.5 ICL, depending on how I crossed my eyes. Yes, the timing set was accurate within 1/2 a degree, checked it as well. I did a thread on here, both Mark's helped me to make sure my numbers were right. I do not like degreeing cams. I do have a roller cam but require different springs, pushrods and drilling the heads for larger studs. Plus making sure the geometry is correct. I am actually just short heads, block machine work and balancing for another motor. My 2004R should handle this motor fine, with a roller cam, probably not. Plus I need to spend another $350 to get the bearings and seals to replace the 2.78 open with 3.08 gears I got off you with ridiculously expensive modified Yukon 8.8 posi I have to go in this Winter. Of course another $150 is needed for the aluminum W27 diff cover.
I should have been more specific, with this timing set on the non advanced key way, has 3, it is at 107 or 107.5 ICL, depending on how I crossed my eyes. Yes, the timing set was accurate within 1/2 a degree, checked it as well. I did a thread on here, both Mark's helped me to make sure my numbers were right. I do not like degreeing cams. I do have a roller cam but require different springs, pushrods and drilling the heads for larger studs. Plus making sure the geometry is correct. I am actually just short heads, block machine work and balancing for another motor. My 2004R should handle this motor fine, with a roller cam, probably not. Plus I need to spend another $350 to get the bearings and seals to replace the 2.78 open with 3.08 gears I got off you with ridiculously expensive modified Yukon 8.8 posi I have to go in this Winter. Of course another $150 is needed for the aluminum W27 diff cover.
yes, you have the 107 at the non advanced position because the cam has 8 deg of advanced ground into it. Which is only 1 deg off the 6 deg they say. So that’s normal
whenever a manufacturer gives you a different number int cl than the LSA, it’s the advance(or retard but not usually) they grind into the cam to give that “recommended” intake cl.
straight up for that cam with its 114 LSA will be 114 int cl and 114 ex cl, no adv or retard…straight up.
Understood. Short block in the trunk of my car, supposedly emailing my clearances, yeah.
I’m confused. So is this the block that’s getting the Mahle pistons and Molnar rod?
if so, and they say they milled the decks .016 then you’ll be right about 0 deck. Do the math.
Stock deck height is normally about 9.330, but let’s say it’s 9.315 after milling. So 9.315 - 6.00 rod - 1.625 piston, - half the stroke comes to about 9.317. Your piston would be sticking out .002.
And the Mr Gasket Ultra seal head gaskets I use don’t need any sealer, and are about .038 compressed. Not sure which ones you have.
Last edited by cutlassefi; Aug 18, 2023 at 05:56 PM.
Yes on the Mahle pistons and Molnar rods. Says .045" included in a full gasket set, steel like on one side and black coated latex on the other. I will measure them.
Does that price include decking the block ? I dont see it on their itemized list. How about boring or was it already bored ? Did you supply rings and bearings etc ?
Already bored, I supplied everything. My Wife guessed 3 grand, I was hoping for around a grand. About half way between as it ended up. From my rough measurements, it looks like the pistons are .002 to .003" in the hole, basically a finger nail. If accurate, I need 66cc chambers with the Felpro and 65cc with the thicker Mr Gasket to be at 9.5 to 1. Those Mahle 3436 VC, Victor as mentioned, head gaskets are bigger than my 4.100" bore. Couldn't find a balancer bolt but it turns over very easy with just the balancer by hand. I will get a torque wrench on it to see how little drag the 1mm ring pack has.
Don't laugh. If he brought them to the shop all apart in a box and there are no numbers anywhere on the rods and caps it can be a royal pain to match them up. Especially with that type of rod with dowel pins where the cap does not easily slide on the rod. I just had to do it with a set of big block Chevy rods last week and I probably spent 20 minutes. I could see it taking even longer with that type of rod. Time is money and you have to bill for it if you are going to stay in business.
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. First of all if you take of the $222 in taxes the bill is about $2029 Canadian which is about $1500 USD. If anything that is a little cheap in my opinion. The same work at my shop would have been every bit as much, maybe more. I dont know about the $157 shop supply fee. I hate seeing that on a bill. It should be part of your overall labor rate. All it does is **** people off
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. First of all if you take of the $222 in taxes the bill is about $2029 Canadian which is about $1500 USD. If anything that is a little cheap in my opinion. The same work at my shop would have been every bit as much, maybe more. I dont know about the $157 shop supply fee. I hate seeing that on a bill. It should be part of your overall labor rate. All it does is **** people off
I charge $1,200 to $1,350 (CAN)to do what he had done. 4 to 6 hours work including set up time.
they’re new rods. It would take 5 minutes to match up the hone marks IF they came mixed up. It’s all labour, that’s it. They were struggling to add things to justify the charges
I charge $1,200 to $1,350 (CAN)to do what he had done. 4 to 6 hours work including set up time.
they’re new rods. It would take 5 minutes to match up the hone marks IF they came mixed up. It’s all labour, that’s it. They were struggling to add things to justify the charges
Are you an actual business with actual business expenses or just doing it at home. Big difference. Either that or your shop is in an extremely inexpensive area. We get $300 just for the align hone and that is probably average in my area. $800 to assemble a performance short block. Etc
I believe you all missed the obvious.
Per the post, I believe they were the new Molnar rods, they’re marked independently of each other. It should take about 4 seconds to get them right.
Just sayin.
Dale it was align honed, first shop already did it, could see the cut marks. So they probably just checked and charged. There was rod bearing contact and side clearance issues from the first shop. The first shop called me when it was in the machine, asked me if I wanted it align honed. I said, does it need it? They said it is a little off, I said it does have ARP main studs, do it. Yeah, I agree, it does seem high. As far as the rods, I only had maybe half of them apart. The others were as they came from Mark. I think they saw $$$ to make from me.
Found my crank bolt, couldn't use my 1/2" torque wrench, didn't go low enough accurately. I used my inch pound torque wrench, 122 inch pounds, so 10 foot pounds. I will move this to its own or reopen my old thread.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; Aug 20, 2023 at 07:15 AM.
Are you an actual business with actual business expenses or just doing it at home. Big difference. Either that or your shop is in an extremely inexpensive area. We get $300 just for the align hone and that is probably average in my area. $800 to assemble a performance short block. Etc
legal business. It’s the same here but in Can$ to align hone..$300 to $350
$800 ($1,075 Can)to assemble a performance short block 😳😳😳😳 wow. I don’t think he even had to install or degree the cam? So they dropped in a crank with 8 floating rods on pistons. Rings that were already checked and gapped.
i charge more for that work on a stock type build because I’m installing press fit pistons on rods…so a non performance build is actually more.
if someone brings you a prepped block, 8 floating rods and pistons, you put it together without a cam…how many hours do you charge them if it’s $800 in the end?
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; Aug 20, 2023 at 11:20 AM.
