Head Bolts
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
Head Bolts
Need to get new head bolts for a 350 olds with the original 7a heads. The heads are at the machine shop now and plan on getting new bolts.
I was planning on getting the ARP High Performance series head bolt kit 180-3600 from summit.
Has anyone used or would recommend a different brand?
Thanks
I was planning on getting the ARP High Performance series head bolt kit 180-3600 from summit.
Has anyone used or would recommend a different brand?
Thanks
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 314
maybe you should read this................I used ARP bolts but torqued them to 90 PSI
joepenoso
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic812.html
joepenoso
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic812.html
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
maybe you should read this................I used ARP bolts but torqued them to 90 PSI
joepenoso
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic812.html
joepenoso
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic812.html
Beer Connoisseur
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,092
From: Daly City, California
I have arp on my 10:1 350 torqued to arp specs with arp lube with no problems. I also have arp on my 11:1 327 Chevy and my 454 with no issues. I don't see why would anybody want rebuild the engine spend all that money and reuse 40 year old head bolts on it. IMO arp is the way to go.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
I have arp on my 10:1 350 torqued to arp specs with arp lube with no problems. I also have arp on my 11:1 327 Chevy and my 454 with no issues. I don't see why would anybody want rebuild the engine spend all that money and reuse 40 year old head bolts on it. IMO arp is the way to go.
New ARP bolts will be used the question is what specs to follow. Getting various opinions on what worked and has not worked. Thanks for your input.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
"I don't see why would anybody want rebuild the engine spend all that money and reuse 40 year old head bolts on it. IMO arp is the way to go."
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
Last edited by Octania; Aug 22, 2013 at 04:11 PM.
Beer Connoisseur
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,092
From: Daly City, California
I think that warranty expired long time ago. Sorry but when building my performance engines and spending $7-8k whats another $100. How do you know what was going on with the heads, engine and head bolts in last 40-50 years?
Unless you bought that car brand new and still have today you have no clue. So yes I would use brand new ARP before I would reuse original 40+ head bolts.
JMO take it how you want it.
Unless you bought that car brand new and still have today you have no clue. So yes I would use brand new ARP before I would reuse original 40+ head bolts.
JMO take it how you want it.
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,514
From: Margate, England
"I don't see why would anybody want rebuild the engine spend all that money and reuse 40 year old head bolts on it. IMO arp is the way to go."
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
Someone with an engineering background explaining in laymans terms the hows and whys of fasteners.
To be really pedantic I suppose I could point out that seemingly solid objects will in fact act as fluids over time.
For example I know someone whos job is looking after the stained glass windows in Canterbury cathedral, some of the glass is over 700 years old, the glass is slightly but measurably thicker at the bottom compared to the top. I think it is known as fluid flow.
No doubt over hundred (or thousands) of years head bolts or cast iron blocks will deform in a similar way, but oem quality bolts will be effectively good as new in our lifetimes provided they haven't been subject to abuse.
Roger.
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 339
From: SE MI
Glass flows over time is a myth which will not die.
http://www.cmog.org/article/does-glass-flow
And I agree as a ME the original Oldsmobile head bolts are just fine for reuse.
http://www.cmog.org/article/does-glass-flow
And I agree as a ME the original Oldsmobile head bolts are just fine for reuse.
Top class post!.
Someone with an engineering background explaining in laymans terms the hows and whys of fasteners.
To be really pedantic I suppose I could point out that seemingly solid objects will in fact act as fluids over time.
For example I know someone whos job is looking after the stained glass windows in Canterbury cathedral, some of the glass is over 700 years old, the glass is slightly but measurably thicker at the bottom compared to the top. I think it is known as fluid flow.
No doubt over hundred (or thousands) of years head bolts or cast iron blocks will deform in a similar way, but oem quality bolts will be effectively good as new in our lifetimes provided they haven't been subject to abuse.
Roger.
Someone with an engineering background explaining in laymans terms the hows and whys of fasteners.
To be really pedantic I suppose I could point out that seemingly solid objects will in fact act as fluids over time.
For example I know someone whos job is looking after the stained glass windows in Canterbury cathedral, some of the glass is over 700 years old, the glass is slightly but measurably thicker at the bottom compared to the top. I think it is known as fluid flow.
No doubt over hundred (or thousands) of years head bolts or cast iron blocks will deform in a similar way, but oem quality bolts will be effectively good as new in our lifetimes provided they haven't been subject to abuse.
Roger.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,030
Like Octania said. I haven't gone over 10.6 compression, I use ordinary Corteco sandwich head gaskets, get the deck and head resurfaced with a fine finish, install the gaskets dry, and re-use the same stock head bolts that I have used and torqued several times before. If one doesn't come up to spec quickly, I would (it hasn't happened) grab and clean another <gasp> stock head bolt that I squirreled away in the 1970s when disassembling one of the many 400s that I have waiting for the one I race to break (also hasn't happened yet!).
'87 Delta 88 Royale
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,514
From: Margate, England
Glass flows over time is a myth which will not die.http://www.cmog.org/article/does-glass-flow
BTW he isn't just a glazier, almost certainly he knows more about glass than most of us ever will.
Apparently the phenomenon is caused by impurities, air flow and all kind of variables that I won't attempt to explain here, because I don't really understand much of it.
Maybe if I had spent 30+ years looking at bits of old glass through a microscope I would follow some of what he said, but the gist of it is he says the glass he works with is thinner at the top than the bottom, and why would he lie to me?.
Roger.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
Take a look at the fine main cap stud that HotRodBiker sold me with the "girdle" from CAT.... finest Pare [that's what the box said, "pare"] available.
One stud galled the nut in place while removing with double-nut method, another stud went "soft", never came to torque, and snapped right off as seen in the photo.
Might as well use Play-Doh studs and nuts, right? You can get any hardness you like, just sun-dry for the right length of time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-M...3f4849&vxp=mtr
Still selling the pcs of shyt I see:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLDSMOBILE-M...c14e86&vxp=mtr
I have had one factory fastener fail- when I was much younger, my first engine I believe... I forgot that the SB's #5 main bolts are 1/2" and thus require more torque. Then I attempted to tighten #4 to the same value.... more, more, more, less? SNAP. Oh damn. The good news, with clean oiled threads the broken part comes right out; just get another and pay some attention this time.
Last edited by Octania; Aug 24, 2013 at 08:37 AM.
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 339
From: SE MI
I don't think he lied, he just has bought into the myth. Do a search on Google. There are many articles written about the myth by Phds.
Well.. that bugged me, so I contacted the guy who told me about the cathedral glass.
BTW he isn't just a glazier, almost certainly he knows more about glass than most of us ever will.
Apparently the phenomenon is caused by impurities, air flow and all kind of variables that I won't attempt to explain here, because I don't really understand much of it.
Maybe if I had spent 30+ years looking at bits of old glass through a microscope I would follow some of what he said, but the gist of it is he says the glass he works with is thinner at the top than the bottom, and why would he lie to me?.
Roger.
BTW he isn't just a glazier, almost certainly he knows more about glass than most of us ever will.
Apparently the phenomenon is caused by impurities, air flow and all kind of variables that I won't attempt to explain here, because I don't really understand much of it.
Maybe if I had spent 30+ years looking at bits of old glass through a microscope I would follow some of what he said, but the gist of it is he says the glass he works with is thinner at the top than the bottom, and why would he lie to me?.
Roger.
morgan
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,925
From: CT
What?
Take a look at the fine main cap stud that HotRodBiker sold me with the "girdle" from CAT.... finest Pare [that's what the box said, "pare"] available.
One stud galled the nut in place while removing with double-nut method, another stud went "soft", never came to torque, and snapped right off as seen in the photo.
Might as well use Play-Doh studs and nuts, right? You can get any hardness you like, just sun-dry for the right length of time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-M...3f4849&vxp=mtr
Still selling the pcs of shyt I see:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLDSMOBILE-M...c14e86&vxp=mtr
I have had one factory fastener fail- when I was much younger, my first engine I believe... I forgot that the SB's #5 main bolts are 1/2" and thus require more torque. Then I attempted to tighten #4 to the same value.... more, more, more, less? SNAP. Oh damn. The good news, with clean oiled threads the broken part comes right out; just get another and pay some attention this time.
Take a look at the fine main cap stud that HotRodBiker sold me with the "girdle" from CAT.... finest Pare [that's what the box said, "pare"] available.
One stud galled the nut in place while removing with double-nut method, another stud went "soft", never came to torque, and snapped right off as seen in the photo.
Might as well use Play-Doh studs and nuts, right? You can get any hardness you like, just sun-dry for the right length of time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-M...3f4849&vxp=mtr
Still selling the pcs of shyt I see:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLDSMOBILE-M...c14e86&vxp=mtr
I have had one factory fastener fail- when I was much younger, my first engine I believe... I forgot that the SB's #5 main bolts are 1/2" and thus require more torque. Then I attempted to tighten #4 to the same value.... more, more, more, less? SNAP. Oh damn. The good news, with clean oiled threads the broken part comes right out; just get another and pay some attention this time.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,012
From: Phx, AZ
"I don't see why would anybody want rebuild the engine spend all that money and reuse 40 year old head bolts on it. IMO arp is the way to go."
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
===============================
I guess my background in Engineering plus many years of putting stuff back together leads me to reuse "40 year old bolts"... Plus I'm a miser by nature. Plus, you simply cannot get the proper boltSTUDS required anywhere else.
The factory fasteners are NOT "torque to yield" units.
Anyone who has studied strength of materials has learned that steel can be stressed to below the yield point many times, and returns to its original status. That is in fact the definition of the yield point of steel.
If you think the factory did not use 170,000 psi steel, you may be mistaken. They used very high quality fasteners. Imagine the fiasco if many of them failed under warranty.
TIME [40 years] does not alter steel's strength. Rust can.... but how many have you seen rusted between the threads and the head, where the strength is required? In fact, the under-rocker-cover long bolts are generally equal to new. Been in oil since new. Only the boltstuds and outer corner shorties may show rust, if from the rust belt, and THAT is only on the outside, where it is merely a cosmetic issue.
Heat can, IF above the temp that allows molecular re-alignment- tempering temperature at least. Not engine heat.
Torquing past yield will ruin any bolt, that's why we don't do it.
So, basically, except to impress others with how much you can spend, when appearance is crucial, or in the case of wildly exceeding the original purpose [racing application, rod bolts].... I don't see why NOT to use the high quality factory fasteners. Recent stories here of head gasket failures even though using Special Voodoo Bolts, vs my experience and other stories here lately with successful reuse of factory fasteners torqued to factory specs... lead me to believe that it's not at all easy to beat the Olds Engineers at their game.
Frankly I think the whole thing started with people using brand C engines far past their limits, and then needing to fix that junk.
I remember taking apart my first Olds engine, wow, 12-pt rod nuts, like them expensive ARP fasteners... FACTORY ISSUE on the Olds.
Jim
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,613
From: Rogues Island, USA
http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/180-3600.pdf
Always helps to read the directions from the manufacturer
Always helps to read the directions from the manufacturer
Connoisseur d'Junque
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21,183
From: The Hudson Valley
Another +1 for Chris's post. It sums it up neatly and make every point I would have made, only better.
There's overkill to the point of being safe for very unlikely conditions, and then there's overkill to a point that will never occur unless the laws of physics change.
- Eric
There's overkill to the point of being safe for very unlikely conditions, and then there's overkill to a point that will never occur unless the laws of physics change.
- Eric
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