What is the best route to take when rebuilding an Engine?

Do you buy an inclusive kit, or buy the parts à la carte? (gaskets, seals, bearings, and such)

Brands/vendors to stay away from?

Engine 70ish 350 Rocket (Building a cruiser, but it will have a loose nut behind the wheel, and make a trip or two to the drag strip.)

Timing chain, or Gear drive? is it worth the extra money?

Lifter and Rocker arm advice.

This is a low buck project, but i will spend more if it saves me money in the long run.

 

Define "low budget". Here is a parts list fror a 350 HP-ish 355,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...arts-list.html
You certainly don't need a gear drive.

 

Agreed to define "low budget"... although captjim and I don't see eye to eye on some of the necessities of a rebuild, we can agree on not scrimping on the machine work.

I think we can also agree that while an all inclusive kit is easier in the short term, (www.northernautoparts.com) you won't have the luxury of selecting the best parts for your particular application. I did a lot of research and poked a few guys in the eye, but I determined what was best for MY application (a long distance cruiser) and did the machine work and bought parts based on longevity, vice higher HP strip applications. I then researched the best deals, and took my time, scouring Ebay, the classifieds here, and took over a year to compile a decent array of parts resembling an engine rebuild.

There are a lot of builders out there, but not all are Oldsmobile guys. Listen to the Olds guys that have burned up a few motors and learn from thier misfortune. Not everything works for everyone, however I can count on one hand the number of guys I SHOULD have listened to before I blew something up.

Read the build threads. Do homework.

John

 

Low budget = as little as possible. I'm reusing and scrounging up old parts.
If it was a Mopar i would have the perfect acronym (M.O.P.A.R. = mostly old parts and rust.)

I have most all of my engine parts already, with the exceptions of the Timing chain, and lifters. All i really need right now are gaskets, rings, and bearings, which brings the question of buy them all in one in a kit, or a piece at a time.
Is a basic kit going to hold up?, or are there some parts (IE Head Gaskets, Main/rod Bearings) that should be bought separate.
Browsing through Catalogs they seem to list them in every conceivable combination.

I've been bit in the hind quarters before buying cheap parts, but other times they work just fine.

Low budget parts list so far

block and rotating assembly $75
new Lunati cam $25 (496/520)
edelbrock performer Intake $169
14cc pistons swapped onto existing rods $ (12 pack of bud light)
replacement piston for one that was bad $5
QJet Carb Donated by a friend
Timing chain cover $10


so call it $300 invested so far.


I'm scrimping and saving everywhere i can because I can't afford not to do so.
I can't afford the correct grill inserts so i will use the ones from 72 that i have. I'm using what I have for now. It might look like a "Johnny Cash One piece at a time" car when its done, but it will be mine, it won't be in a Junk Yard, and I'll keep working on it as time and money allow.

Does that give you an idea where I'm headed with this project?

 

About the only machine work i have left is the heads. I'm going to talk to guy who did my pistons for me to see if he will do them as well. He is an old guy that has a machine shop in his garage, used to build circle track engines, and does stuff like this now for fun to keep him busy. He works cheap, knows his stuff, and will do the job right. It might take him awhile, but i'm not in any hurry. Time I have, Money not so much.

As far as putting this together, that is my job (Wyoming Tech Grad Class of 81), and I know "Grumpy" (a friend and Certified Mechanic with lots of years of experience.)will be looking on even if he is pretending not to help.

Thank You for your input.

 

Are you related to Coppercutlass?? Sorry, couldn't resist.

OK, so you are not doing a rebuild, you are scrapping it together. Your pistons are probably going to be sloppy, but it should run. At 8.6 to 1 or so CR that cam is WAAAAAAAY too big. It will be a big turd off the line. If you are going to go el-cheapo generic, get the 204/214. I suppose you are re-using the lifters? Good luck with that......

 

[QUOTE=Nunyadam Biz;481993]
14cc pistons swapped onto existing rods $ (12 pack of bud light)

Hopefully he consumed the 12 pack AFTER he did the swap.
Same guy is doing the heads?
Reusing any valvetrain parts is playing with fire, yes that cam is waaay too big.

 

I built my budget 350 the first one on a shoe string budget. I had all my money in the top end ran out of money and put together a short block with 600 bucks. It lasted a whole season 5k miles and 45 1/4 mile runs. Was it correct NO but it lasted long enough so i could save money to build one. Not everyon has money to build a 4k dollar engine and not everyone wants to wait. Building things like this it should be taken into consideration that it wont live as long as a freshly built engine., But you also have to take this for what it's worth Alot of guys pay top dollar to have an olds engine built and they fail very soon. So who's to say that proper buiuld was right or wrong. I took my build with a grain of salt. It was my first real hp build where i was using a cam that big and compression that high. It lasted long enough for me to have some cheap fun with it and save money for something better. All i lost was 550 bucks as i got to re use my oil pan . I got to re use all my top end parts . Small price to pay to stay out on the road. It might not be a rebuild but thats does not make it incorrect. My engine failed in 2 places . I cracked 4 piston skirts and had 2 bearings fail. One bearing looked like it was from over revving and one looked like something came out from the oil passage and gouged up the bearing. I think my failure was due from it being over rev'd more than once. When i took the engine apart all the other bearings looked good. It still ran when i pulled it out. Jim and mark you guys have some great advice but not everyone can afford to do it right and some of us have to make do with what we got yes we have to sacrifice some stuff in the process but sometime we have no choice. When i built my engine i dam well knew it was not gonna be ever lasting and when it failed i admited it and shared. fact is i got to run low 13's with a 3300 dollar engine . probably would have hit high 12's if the money allowed for a converter and bigger carb. What im saying guys is when guys build stuff like this i think we all very damn well know that it aint gonna be ever lasting .

 

I would not re use lifters. Maybe push rods if they are cleaned and checked for straightness. You will probably need valve springs with that cam. You can only re use so much stuff .

 

the heads will be rebuilt, new Valves, springs, and lifters. can't re-use lifters that don't exist, and I would never put used Lifters on a new Cam.
Now lets consider what i plan to do about the Dog out of the hole problem. H'mm?
2600-2800 stall convertor?
3.55 rear gear swap?
Will that help just a bit?

I think there is a bit of misinterpretation on the Cam so just to set this straight.

cam specs
Duration: 290°/300°
Gross Lift: .469''/.520''
RPM Range: 2500-5500
224/234 @ .050 on 112LSA.

 

No misinterpretation. The cam is simply too big for a low compression small block in a heavy car. That cam would be OK in a 10.5 to 1 355 with 4.10 gears and a 3500 converter. In your car with those pistons it will be horrible.

 

Once again "Rebuild" means to return to factory specs. He is not doing that.

 

Yes. I never used rebuild in my post. I used built a lot. But yes I agree with you jim he is refreshing the engine. What a lot of guys will loosely use re built as a means to explain they took the engine apart and put in new parts possibly re used some but most guys will simply use re built.

 

I agree with Coppercutlass (no he is not my brother, but some of the parts are from his little engine that could.)
$4K to throw at an engine is a pipe dream. I'm going to build this car with what I have, and enjoy it. Quite Frankly I will probably be having fun with it when it goes Boom, then i can do it again. I have another block, but it needs sent out for machine work, and will require a bunch more parts, but this car has to hit the road NEXT YEAR on the money i have. I set that goal, I will achieve it. You can Help me make it happen, or not. it is not going to hurt my feelings.

 

The cam isn't in the engine yet, and i still have time to change that. (wow I would lose $25, but have a cam sitting for another build/swap)

So consider that point taken Captjim. I do listen, and yes as you would say I'm scrapping together an engine not RE-Building to Factory spec.

Lets get past that point and help me get the most bang for my buck.

My math must be a bit off, so help me out here.
#6 heads have 64cc chambers correct?
14cc dish.
CR =?

 

I would stay on the mild side. I ran the comp cams 260h in a 9 to 1 350 . With stock heads and stock style valve train. With 3.73 gears and an x pipe and 2300 stall converter I ran 13.86 in the 1/4 mile. Just a suggestion. I ran that cam in a similar build. That engine is still running .

 

ok, so i save the cam for another build.

 

This just slays me........you ask for advice but when a couple of very intelegent guys give good advice, you decide to ignore them . Why even ask if you are just going to assemble a grenade with the pin ready to fall out? If you don't do it right.......don't do it at all .

 

Nick the problem is the same people say the same thing. you cant do this you have to do this otherwise we wont help. Well the problem is jim and mark both build engines for a living they see things diffrently. Now this guy has a car he wants to drive and not sit on for ever and he has a limited budget. Well we all have to make sacrafices. Between my mortagage bill and all my other bills i have a limited budget. It took me almost a years to build my "proper" 350. Even then i still did somethings guys will snarl at for me for doing . Point being my 350 took a crap a bought a 307 running for 150 bucks drove it all summer and built my 350 in the mean time. Sure im doing alot of work but it's work im not being charged for because im doing it. I enjoy it and many of us do. The point is when questions like this come up they should either help or not say anything at all. The op stated he had limited funds so what make people think he can do it right down to tee. Help the guy out say what he can and cant re use what he can skimp on because turth be told alot of guys have done what he is doing. I have. One failed after a year one is still running strong 5 years later. It's part of the risk you take when you build stuff on a budget. Same goes for budget restorations. I did a budget resto on my girfriends k5 blazer and i explained to her and her family on the budget they had stuff will have to get redone down the road. It's been 4 years and some rust bubbles are starting to pop up in some areas i repaired.Now if i had another 1500 for some stuff to make the body work that much better it would have lasted even longer but 1500 was not an option and time was of the essence. It's the nature of the beast.

 

I see you missed the part about Not using the Cam, and NOT HAVING MONEY.
If you want to give me the money I will be glad to go out and buy all new parts. I don't see that happening, so I'm going to spend what i can on what i can afford.
I see a new Cam in my future because I did listen to advice.

Maybe i should start a http://www.kickstarter.com/project so everybody can help fund my build.

 

<----- see that car in the picture? Yeah its sitting in my workspace. My engine is in the garage across the street. that grey building on the right is my house. ( I do actually own it. not much but I PAYED IT OFF)
Monthly budget for car parts $80.
$4000 divided by $80 comes out to me building the engine in a bit over 4 years.

 

8.4 to 1.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html
Heads will cc at 68, not 64. El-cheapo gasket is .050. piston volume is 14cc sitting down (estimate) .020

It is just my opinion but I have learned that you don't save anything by doimg it twice. The cost is the cost, you can look for deals and save a bit here and there, but re-ringing an engine with worn cylinders and putting new bearings in a worn crank is a waste of time. IMHO. Better to buy a running 350, drive it, and do the engine once.

BTW BIZ, just my opinion but coming here asking for someone to fund your project is in poor form. We all work hard to be in the position that we are.

Also, Copper, I do NOT build engines for a living, I am a fishing guide. I spent 20 years as an ASE tech and raced and worked at machine shops. Just an old school hot-rodder. But I have seen sooooo many cases both in performance cars and regular customer cars where cheaping out just does not pay off.

 

[QUOTE=Nunyadam Biz;482128 Monthly budget for car parts $80.
$4000 divided by $80 comes out to me building the engine in a bit over 4 years.[/QUOTE]

Find a different hobby.......or a bigger budget for a better turd.

 

WOW !!!! Really Nick. That's a bit snobbish telling someone they cant do it. What gives you that right to tell people what to do or find a cheaper hobby. It's people like you that drive people away. @ Jim i understand cheaping out dont pay off. I have lived it but it was a minimal loss to me and like i said it bought me time. If the op mill's his heads and buys some shim gaskets he might be able to get away with it specially if he deck's the block. Just suggestuions. That block he bought from me was not very worn at all. It came from a low milage engine. Can you guys see what would drive him to say if you want me to run this then pay for it. He said he does not have 4k to throw at it. I mean stuff like this pop's up and everybody jumps to the buy this new and that etc. Stuff aint cheap. He is doing what he can with what he has and many have done that. Just becasue he cant do it right does not mean he should not do it at all. Do you guys enderstand not everyone has all the time or money in the world. I barter,trade and use what every little connections i have to get deals on stuff or slightly used stuff. Thats pretty much how my whole car was built. I was making 8.50 an hour when i started bulding my car i now make considerbaly more but at the time i had to do what i could with what i had. This is why i dont even post on here anymore. Same people same bs. i can care less for. Im happy doing things the way i have for years and dont mind spending a little extra to buy me some time. Because it takes 2 things to build these cars/engines. Time or money so sometimes you gotta spend a little to buy your self sometime to build it right. Does that make sense ?

 

it does to me.

 

"If the op mill's his heads and buys some shim gaskets he might be able to get away with it specially if he deck's the block."
You just spent $300 of his money. That is 4 months worth.

To some degree Nick is right. You either pay the going rate or take chances and hope you get lucky. Every hobby costs money, some more than others. Bird watching is cheap, performance cars are not. It isn't snobbish, it just is what it is. On some of the TV shows ten grand is a "budget build". You just can't take junk, toss it together and get a decent engine. At least not consistently.

 

He might be bale to get it done cheaper he mentioned he know soemone who does it out of their garage. You guys never mentioned he could mill his heads or deck his block to bump compression. You just started in about how his approach is wrong etc. I built my whole car on the cheap. My whole car the first time it was done after my resto i had 9k in it front to back. I had 4k into my whole drive train. some people spend 5k on an engine they cant even fire up becasue it still needs a carb. It came down to talking to the right people at the right time and getting good deals. So dont tell someone they cant do it for cheap i restored my 72 for 9k. Id call that cheap .




Thats what 9k got me a car that ran 13.9 first time at the track and looked much better than what some people pay to get done and i spent wayyyy less.

 

Look, guys, I have to agree with Copper and Nun that this "my way or [not] the highway" attitude is not helpful, and is contrary to the spirit of hot rodding and of tinkering in general.

These cars are not products that people are going to sell, they are toys for them to play with and enjoy.
If a guy wants (or has) to "take chances," then that's his choice.
Both of these guys know that there are "better," and certainly more reliable and more powerful, ways to build an engine, but they've got to work with what they've got, because they can't harvest money from trees, or pull it out of their ani.
They are (or have been) looking for answers to specific questions, and for ideas, and if the only response you've got is "you can't do that without more money," then you're really not being helpful.

The "great" hot rodders who founded the engine modification movement, like Mondello, started this way, too, and learned a lot, which they translated into more and more powerful and reliable engines, as they got access to more and more money. Should they have just given up because they didn't have "enough" dough when they started out?

The fact is that anyone can say that someone else isn't building a motor "correctly" unless he spends more money. Nick may have a great engine, but maybe I'll take a look at it, and tell him that without a purpose-forged magnesium block with Nikasil sleeves, and titanium valves and rockers, it's piece of crap. Does that mean that he has to go out and spend another ten grand to make it "right" because I said so? Of course not. First of all, he's built it the way HE wants it, and second of all, I may not know my a$$ from an oil sump.

Finally, Jim, you said it all in your post above, and showed that you essentially agree: They understand that they won't get consistent results, and they hope they get lucky. They're willing to put up what time and money they've got and take those chances, knowing that they may score or they may flop.
They are grown men who have the freedom to make their own choices, based on the realities they face in their own lives, and frankly, I think that this line of criticism is directly insulting to their manhood, and, no, I joke around a lot, but I'm not joking about that part.

- Eric

 

Nunya, let's get back on track here. Figure out what your deck height is, then use the calculator at http://www.summitracing.com/expertad...ion-calculator

Once you know for certain what your compression is going to be then you can select your cam.

You mentioned a timing chain or a gear drive. Definitely a timing chain for your application. You really don't need the cost or the noise of a gear drive.

You also ask about valve train components. I would say that if you stick with the cam you have, or smaller, you can get away with stock rocker arms. If you want to get adjustable rockers, the Comp. Cams Magnum rocker arms are great for the money. My only advice is to buy the rocker arms and studs only, then get the correct length Magnum pushrods to go with it. We just ran into an issue with the convertible using the High Energy pushrods that came with the kit. Don't use them. Spend the $100 on the Magnum pushrods.

Keep asking questions and I'll keep answering them as long as I have one for you. I'm not gonna lecture you about the semantics of rebuilt vs. refreshed. That conversation is worn the hell out. Ask away, and good luck.

 

It may live a few years and be fun, my 403 was. But it was disappointment at the track. I am planning a bare bones 350 build with milled Pro Comps and 50mm tbi fi. I want to do my 424 ci build properly, can really take my time to do it right. The 350 has stuck rings, sat for years. It was fine after a regasket but sat for 3 months and started consuming a lot of oil. I have it down to a liter every 1000 km in my 4x4. Compression and oil consumption improved after soaking cylinders with top end cleaner. I want my car running and that is too much oil consumption. The cylinders looked good when gasketed 3 years and few miles ago and oil pressure is still decent. Why should he not enjoy his car? Mill the heads to 65cc and use .028" Corteco gaskets or .011" shim gaskets. Not perfect but should be fun. He may have some oil consumption and not so ideal power but better than it taking up space. Itfmine has to get pulled in and out of my shop constantly, one time it would keep going never to be seen again.

 

"You guys never mentioned he could mill his heads or deck his block to bump compression."
So, you zero deck, mill the heads and use a shim gasket to bump compression, right? Want to guess what happens with pistons that rock around in a sloppy bore at high rpm with .018 piston to head? Again, you are showing your lack of experience.

I have no problem with doing upgrades to a running engine. Cam, intake, valve job, etc. But IMO when you tear it down and put it back together like this you open up a big can of worms. If you dingleberry hone the cylinders will not be true. If you hone at a machine shop you will get good cylinders but the clearance will be excessive. The last decent 350 was made in 1976, that was 35 years ago, finding one in decent shape is getting pretty hard to do.

 

[QUOTE=ah64pilot;482242]
You also ask about valve train components. I would say that if you stick with the cam you have, or smaller, you can get away with stock rocker arms. If you want to get adjustable rockers, the Comp. Cams Magnum rocker arms are great for the money. My only advice is to buy the rocker arms and studs only, then get the correct length Magnum pushrods to go with it. We just ran into an issue with the convertible using the High Energy pushrods that came with the kit. Don't use them. Spend the $100 on the Magnum pushrods.[QUOTE]

If he sticks with that cam it won't run. Seriously, the cylinder pressure will be so low that it might not even start. Again, you just spent $300 on rockers and pushrods, it is money he doesn't have.

 

I hear you but I don't think they really look at it that way. I think they are being unrealistic in regards to their goals and budget. $100 month to build an engine is just not realistic, INMO. Guys have given advice in this thread about roller rockers and machine work, that all cost money. If Nunya could give a dollar figure it would help clarify what he has to spend and the most cost effective use of it. To say "as little as possible" makes it tough to give advice.

 

Geez, I gave an opinion. $80 ain't gonna buy him much of anything. That is what I was pointing out. I've been there many moons ago. I have only blown up one motor in 29 yrs of racing. Building my engines myself up till the last 5 years. Try taking some advice instead instead of bristling.

 

Well, that's a different question - what will you really get for an extremely minimal sum?

Obviously, reliability and power won't be that great, but - who knows? - he may get lucky.

My point is, let the guy do the best he can within his own parameters, using his ingenuity as best he can, and let's see what comes out of it, rather than just saying "Forget it."

So he makes a motor that's fun for a few weeks or a few months, then blows up - big deal. At least he had a good time and learned something.
The next one he builds will be better.

At least he's not asking you how to put the 396 that's behind his buddy's barn into the thing .

- Eric

 

I used a 70 olds engine in my 80 trans Am for 5+ years without any major problems. Rode it hard, put it away wet so to speak. Bought the car for $150, it had a cracked transmission case and a cracked head. replaced the heads with a set straight from the junk yard. ran those heads for a year or so until i found a better set, used that set until I blew a radiator hose, and had to drive it 15 miles with no water. (so hot it melted the valve stem seals.) After that i put the first set back on and went again.

Was it the right way to do it? HELL NO
Did it serve my purposes? Hell YES
Did I have Fun? HELL YES

 

(Building a cruiser, but it will have a loose nut behind the wheel, and make a trip or two to the drag strip.)

Going back to your original statement, you need to rethink this. Is it a cruiser or a drag car? Building a car for the track takes putting the right combination of parts together, an the experience and some level of expertise. Putting an enormous cam in a street car will be a "turd" off the line, and it will also embarrass you at the strip unless you have the rest of the parts and build to make it work...and that is lmost impossible to do unless you have money, or a gun.

It sounds like this is your first engine. Stick to the basics. Buy the parts in a kit from one of the Olds suppliers, or Jegs etc., but a good stock (or close to stock) will be a lot better than trying to be an expert with no experience and think you are going to build a race car. Save that for the next build. Otherwise, your limited budget is going to be a total loss.

 

As said earlier I'm saving the cam, and buying a different one.

I also see i need to go back and read some posts that are not totally bashing my plan.

 

Thank You.
THIS is what I asked for.

I see Brown and others added some advice as well. Truthfully everybody has given there opinion, but seeing as how I don't have the money to do it the way they think it should be done I'll take what i can from it and move on.

 

Sorry guys but @ jim. I never said for him to zero deck the block. That shows how much you jump to conclusions.