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So twice in the last month when i turned my car off it doesn't shut down completely when i turn the key to off. It kind of sputters out. Its an olds 307 in an 83 custom cruiser. Any ideas??? And if i could post a video of the engine so you could hear it, would you be able to possibly point me in the right direction of this ticking noise? It increases in speed as the engine does but its not to loud. You cant hear it with the windows up even if everyone is completely silent when your going more than 15mph.
Sometimes when an engine runs on, its due to too high of idle speed. Often on older cars, carbon builds up in the combustion chamber and can re-ignite left over fuel vapor causing same symptom. Even the wrong spark plug could cause it.
I agree with the others on a sea foam treatment, I'n the meantime shut the car off in drive to eliminate the run on. If you have a friend that can look into the carb when you shut it down, have him or her see if fuel continues to go into the car when you shut it off in park. You may need the carb rebuild. As for the ticking it could be an exhaust manifold leak, does the noise go away or lessen after the car warms up ? Look for black sout around the manifold gaskets if possible or twist a kleenex tissue up and run it around the exhaust manifold to see if it flutters.
Hope this helps
Eric
What octane fuel are you using? 307s in my experience are notorious for wanting 93 octane.
A few tankfuls of GOOD 93 octane fuel (Shell, BP, Valero or other top-tier gasoline) with a can of SeaFoam added won't hurt a thing. Get the car good and warmed up, then take it out on the highway and make a few hard acceleration 40-70 mph passes with it and watch the black smoke roll out the tailpipe. That's burning the carbon buildup out of the combustion chamber.
Also check idle speed using an accurate tachometer. Ought to be about 700-750 RPM in park, then drop to around 600 in drive.
Visit http://www.cincyoldsclub.us/ . Someone there will know a competent mechanic who understands electronic carbureted cars.
In meantime just leave it in drive when you shut the car off, then put in park.
Last edited by rocketraider; February 10th, 2016 at 03:53 AM.
IActually either GM engine flush or replacing the engine oil with ATF for a few miles might work. It also could be an exhaust leak somewhere too. Your idle may need need turned down a hair for the dieseling.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; February 10th, 2016 at 04:13 PM.
Let's elaborate- a quart or two of ATF mixed with your engine oil will help clean the engine internally and free a stuck or ticking lifter. I wouldn't go much more than that as ATF is a much lighter-bodied lubricant than engine oil.
The VIN Y 307 in the OP's car uses a vacuum-operated Idle Load Compensator. If this system is not operating properly, it WILL cause the idle to be too high, especially when the key is turned off.
The ILC is spring loaded to extend the shaft that increases idle speed when vacuum is not present. If the vacuum hose is leaking or not connected, the shaft will always be extended and the idle will be too high.
There is also a second part to this. There is a vacuum solenoid switch that opens when the key is turned off. This routes vacuum stored in one of the vacuum ***** to the ILC, retracting it at key shutoff to ensure that the idle speed is low enough to avoid dieseling. Either of these could be the problem. You need to read the Chassis Service Manual and perform the tests and adjustments specified for this system. At the risk of repeating myself, the CCC system works well IF it is in good shape and adjusted EXACTLY as specified in the CSM. Failure to do this will result is continual problems.
So i threw a video up on youtube but its not of the ticking, because i didnt know youtube had a 100 mb limit. This is of after the engine has been idling a minute and has warmed up and kicks over per say. I dont believe it is supossed to idle this fast or loud. Along with the check engine light coming on at the same time i think there is a problem. Ill definitely dump some sea foam in there and what are the dangers of cleaning out my engine to well to the point of all the lifters ticking as one of you mentioned? Can you please elaborate? Ive actually got a thicker oil in there right now i think its 5 30 or 10 30, any suggestions on a different oil? Or should i stay the same?
The VIN Y 307 in the OP's car uses a vacuum-operated Idle Load Compensator. If this system is not operating properly, it WILL cause the idle to be too high, especially when the key is turned off.
The ILC is spring loaded to extend the shaft that increases idle speed when vacuum is not present. If the vacuum hose is leaking or not connected, the shaft will always be extended and the idle will be too high.
There is also a second part to this. There is a vacuum solenoid switch that opens when the key is turned off. This routes vacuum stored in one of the vacuum ***** to the ILC, retracting it at key shutoff to ensure that the idle speed is low enough to avoid dieseling. Either of these could be the problem. You need to read the Chassis Service Manual and perform the tests and adjustments specified for this system. At the risk of repeating myself, the CCC system works well IF it is in good shape and adjusted EXACTLY as specified in the CSM. Failure to do this will result is continual problems.
Could this have to do with the ILC you mentioned joe?
Along with the check engine light coming on at the same time i think there is a problem.
That's probably a giveaway.
If the light is on all the time, there's a stored code, which you can read. If it only lights occasionally, it's an intermittent problem, which is more difficult to find. Personally I'd figure out what the problems are before dumping anything into the engine. Ticking can be lifters, valvetrain, exhaust, or something worse.
Could this have to do with the ILC you mentioned joe?
From above:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
The VIN Y 307 in the OP's car uses a vacuum-operated Idle Load Compensator. If this system is not operating properly, it WILL cause the idle to be too high, especially when the key is turned off.
One more thing. The CCC system uses a pulsewidth modulated solenoid in the carb to cycle the primary metering rods up and down. This pulsing causes a clattering ticking noise that is very obvious when running with the air cleaner off. This noise is normal on the CCC 307.
I was referring to the ILC when speaking of the tremendously high idle speed once the engine warms up and does whatever it does when i hear it "kick over" and the check engine light comes on at the same time. If i dont sit after starting the car and wait for it to "kick over" the check engine light will come on once i get the car to around 45 mph or going up hill ect. Its not exactly clockwork but it happens almost every time. There has been an occasion or two where ive been driving more than half an hour and it doesn't illuminate. As far as the ticking, i know from my other CC it didnt do this. The cars drivability is fantastic, however, and ive stoped by a few places to have the codes ran and they tell me it uses an older scanner that they dont possess.
This video is about ten times longer than it needs to be (one of the reasons I avoid YouTube video how-tos) but it (FINALLY) does show you how the Check Engine light flashes to display codes.
I'll also point out that 1) an intermittent light usually means that there are no stored codes, so you do need a real scan tool to watch the telemetry while you drive and 2) the vacuum hoses controlling the ILC and everything else under the hood are not connected to the computer and won't set any codes if they are bad. You have to resort to real troubleshooting for those problems.
Finally, while not necessarily the problem with your car, I've owned three different cars with CCC 307s and every one of them was very difficult to get all the air out of the cooling system. This manifested itself as an intermittent Check Engine light, which would come on when the air pocket was under the coolant temp sensor. The CTS doesn't work when it isn't in flowing coolant, so it got a spurious signal that confused the computer. Once the air pocket moved on, the light went out.
It says public, but ive never posted to youtube before so i have no clue. And to joe, i dont know what i mean by kick over either other than i can hear/feel a difference in the way it idles in the morning before touching the gas whatsoever. It idles like a jet engine and as soon as i tap the gas it slows to normal. It does not, however start this way. It idles normally fast at cold startup but like i said after a few minute it does something different and speeds up way faster and the check engine light comes on. This is what my video is of, the engine idling abnormally fast. Ill take another video tomorrow morning in lower quality so youtube doesnt get angry with me and my high resolution.
"Kick off" might be a better term, as in the choke cam "kicks off" fast idle.
The increase in idle speed makes me wonder if you're getting that air bubble under the coolant temp sensor as Joe describes. That can definitely fool the CCC (Computer Controlled Combustion) system's ECM into thinking engine is still cold and richening the carb and choke.
I don't know enough about electronic QuadraJets to help you much.
*edit* Good lord. I just watched the vid and no way should that engine be revving that fast under any conditions at idle.
The increase in idle speed makes me wonder if you're getting that air bubble under the coolant temp sensor as Joe describes. That can definitely fool the CCC (Computer Controlled Combustion) system's ECM into thinking engine is still cold and richening the carb and choke.
The CCC system is pretty feeble in what it actually controls. It does not control the choke nor the fast idle speed. Both of those work exactly like the ones on any normal Qjet. The CCC system only controls idle speed with the ILC, and then only under specific conditions, namely when the A/C is turned on and when the key is turned off. Some later 307s may also sense PS pressure and up the idle when the wheels are turned hard, but I don't think this one does.
In fact, here's the short list of what the CCC does control:
Primary side mixture using the mixture control solenoid
Timing advance curve
Evaporative cannister purge
EGR valve opening
EFE operation (flapper in the exhaust manifold)
Carb vacuum break (technically, this controls the choke plate, but only to open it sooner, not to close it)
A/C clutch cutout at W.O.T.
ILC as described above
A.I.R. diverter valves
[QUOTE=Northern Custom Cruiser;894305]Ill definitely dump some sea foam in there and what are the dangers of cleaning out my engine to well to the point of all the lifters ticking as one of you mentioned? Can you please elaborate?
I owned a 76 buick century back in the day it had a 350 with a sticky lifter, I was told to add trans fluid , I added 2 quarts and run the engine for about 50 miles. Brought it home changed the oil fired it up only to make the condition worse. Then had to run 20w50 oil just to quieten it down.
That tick sounds pretty minor, unless the motor has had regular oil changes for it's whole life, flushing might cause more issues as said. I used the GM engine flush with good results in a 307 that had high miles but regular oil changes since new. I actually gained hot oil pressure. I used ATF in place of the oil to unstick oil rings in 2 Olds 350's. Seafoam, flush etc didn't work.
Is there any way to manually go in there and look at this with my eyes instead of dumping in something that might cause an issue. I mean, im assuming that since everything here is mechanical there has got to be a problem somewhere that i could fix if i got in there and checked it out. These lifters, are they accessible through the valve cover? Would replacing the part in question be feasible or fix the problem?
Lifters on your car isn't a quick and easy thing like on some older cars without miles of vacuum hoses and stuff like that to get in the way, lose or break. A minor ticking isn't terrible and I've had much luck with additives like Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam. Try the quick and easy stuff first. You're not gonna want to put in the hours of labor it's going to take to go replacing lifters and stuff like that on this car without trying the cheap alternatives first.
And also joe, i wasnt able to check and see if the ILC shaft was fully extended and pressing the throttle arm but i know once i give the shaft a push it slowest the idle down back from jet engine to normal. The other CC i had did this too, it just wasnt as violent. I took the vacuum hose off of what i believe is the ILC and it made no difference to the engine after i slowed it down from death speed. Assuming the car has as few miles as it says it does, (32,000) would you suggest a flush and/or adding ATF. Im just trying to get the engine to idle smoother its got a bit of a shudder along with the ticking. I replaced the spark wires but the plugs looked new on the inside, black on the outside. Would you guys suggest replacing those too? There doesnt seem to be any corrosion on them at all.
Lifters on your car isn't a quick and easy thing like on some older cars without miles of vacuum hoses and stuff like that to get in the way, lose or break. A minor ticking isn't terrible and I've had much luck with additives like Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam. Try the quick and easy stuff first. You're not gonna want to put in the hours of labor it's going to take to go replacing lifters and stuff like that on this car without trying the cheap alternatives first.
Ive actually gotten the driver valve cover off and back on without messing anything up on my first CC to replace the valve cover gasket, which is the same side this ticking is coming from. Honestly, if digging in there under the valve cover will give me an opportunity to see whats wrong and allow me to fix it, i wouldnt mind spending a few hours on it simply because i really enjoy working on this car, compared to a cadillac i have this car is fun to work on. So give me the green light if you think i could find the source of my problem under there and ill go to town!
I was just able to see your video. Your engine sounds like mine before I narrowed it down to an intake manifold gasket leak. See if these threads help you out.
I still haven't done the job though. In fact, I plan on hitting the top of the intake with some purple power today to prep it for removal.
As far as the ticking man, I still think you should try an additive first. The additives that you simply add to your oil couldn't really do any harm. Worst case scenario for MMO or Seafoam is that your problem remains.
Before you start tearing it down for the ticking, get yourself a length of vacuum or fuel hose long enough you can probe around the engine and still reach your ears.
Hold one end to yer ear and move the other end along the AIR pipes and especially around the AIR check valves, and then along the edges of the exhaust manifolds at the head. If there's an exhaust leak you WILL hear it.
Ill give additives a try and start scoping for leaks, i came out to the CC a few mornings ago to find that someone hit it on the rear driver side and broke the tail light that i literally just replaced a couple weeks ago. Oh the joy...
I was just able to see your video. Your engine sounds like mine before I narrowed it down to an intake manifold gasket leak. See if these threads help you out.
I still haven't done the job though. In fact, I plan on hitting the top of the intake with some purple power today to prep it for removal.
As far as the ticking man, I still think you should try an additive first. The additives that you simply add to your oil couldn't really do any harm. Worst case scenario for MMO or Seafoam is that your problem remains.
I am also planning on trying these tests out here soon, i just wish there was a name on each one of these pieces and thingamagiggers. I feel as if im annoying asking where and what these look like. This is the first car ive actually dove into and is sort of my practice and test all in one.
We all start somewhere, man. Most of the guys on this site are happy to help so don't worry about annoying anyone.
Nice way to put it.
It takes some practice. Look at what the interwebs say and back it up with some paper manuals-diagrams. Break it down into systems or parts. Look at the small things first, then the big picture can get clearer.
February 9th, 2016, 06:22 PM
