EsoWuhn

After combing the web High and low I’ve found a few but not many threads about an all too common problem I’m having. 1980 Olds Delta 88, 350 non diesel; after I’ve done my Edelbrock swap I’m still having cold start issues. When I go to crank my car up here in NC (not that cold), it turns and engages but doesn't start. After about the fourth time turning the key, it kicks over but wont stay on. After about the 8th time turning the key, it’ll stay on with an extremely ROUGH idle, then it slowly gains rpm and after a few; runs as it should. I understand odds are it wont kick over first time EVERY time (no MSD box or super high energy plugs; jus a regular cruiser), but it not turning over until 10 or 11 key turns seems a bit outrageous. It is timed as per specs (20* BTDC), and when its heated up runs like a charm. Fuel pump is working as it should as is fuel sending unit, and all hoses and fuel filter are brand new. ANY and all help would be appreciated, hopefully someone can advise me in the right direction. Only thing I can think I’d need are new plugs and wires, but im this build I’m trying to get it running as it should while with old parts, so when the new parts get installed its really a get up and go.


Second part being when I go to accelerate, it hesitates as if it wants to die, but it accelerates smoothly and without a hitch. If I’m already in gear and I go to pass someone on the highway, it bogs down SLIGHTLY, but kicks up and does what it should do. Does anyone have any idea as to how I’d be able to get rid of that bog, and be able to accelerate smoothly ? My TV cable is adjust honestly 1000 times better than it ever has been, so I dont think that would be part of it. Thank you.

Fun71

Sounds as if you may need to adjust the choke for correct cold start operation.

I should ask, how are you starting the engine? Are you depressing the pedal 3 or 4 times to prime the carb before turning the key? Carbureted engines are different than modern fuel injected engines and you must depress the pedal to set the choke, which also engages the fast idle cam, and you need 3-4 pumps to prime the carb, and maybe more if it has been sitting for a while.

EsoWuhn

Now would that be an adjustment for more air, or for less ? Its gotten better from where it started, which is about 5 lines down from the center mark; I'm at about center if not a little over...

Tedd Thompson

Not my era/ year of expertise but to me it sounds like a bad accelerator pump or a vacuum leak, I'm betting on a vacuum leak . On the hard starting thing that is just what happens with old carbureted cars and the NEW gas we have to run. It took the usual 15 cranks to fire up my car this morning and everything from the fuel pump forward is new/ rebuilt Ask around I think you will find out that many crank their cars longer after they have not been started in a while. Fuel injected and that all goes away.... Tedd

Fun71

Check it when the engine is cold, such as in the morning. Depress the pedal to set the choke, the look at the primary air valve to see how far open it is. Just going from memory here, I think the air valve (butterfly valve) should be open around 1/8" or so. Loosen the three screws and turn the black choke housing dial to open or close as necessary.

EsoWuhn

Either could be possible, as I did have to reseal my egr valve before putting on my egr block off. I dont hear any air though, And ALL hoses are brand new; though still not to say there couldnt be a vacuum leak. Just thought I’d erradicate that possibility with new hoses and lines. Though I have been thinking the accelerator pump, as thats the only thing I didnt swap out on the rebuild.

EsoWuhn

Will do. I appreciate the help...

When I rebuilt the carb, i noticed the choke stuck JUST a little bit, so I was considering filing the point it seemed like it hung up on; if that makes sense. I did put lithium grease (1/4 of a dab) on all linking and moving parts, as idk how long its sat up before now. But will check more than likely tonight and make adjustments, may want to cruise a bit later on ...

EsoWuhn

also usually about 3 pumps. Then I turn the key...but since the swap, its 3 pumps followed by at least 10 additional while turning the key to start. Thats usually after I JUST turn the key about 6 times. And I thought I’d be a LITTLE safer running ONLY 93 in it. But where I’m at, I’ve been advised to use racing fuel ...

Fun71

Hmm, sticking choke linkage is not good. It should move freely in order to function reliably. Is the butterfly valve touching something or is it one of the linkage rods?

EsoWuhn

honestly, NOTHING is touching. There was one part that was a bit bent, and with 4 other sets of eyes i’ve straightened it. It does move freely, just sometimes with wide open throttle it stuck. Granted that was during the rebuild phase, i havent noticed as such with operation. I’ve been driving the vehicle for about two weeks now; full WOT and all and havent had ANY issues except the two I’ve mentioned...

Tedd Thompson

Have you sprayed around the base of the carb with starting fluid or carb cleaner while the car is running idling?Looking for a rise in rpm denoting a vacuum leak? and double check if your accelerator pump is pushing two good squirts of gas with each pump ot the throttle. Does the engine sputter or backfire if you give it gas right after a cold start. If so this could be a sign of incorrect choke setting.... Now I'll go back to the Vintage forum where I belong and let the modern guys do the diagnosing.... Lost in the fifties ...Tedd

Cutlass Fan

If everything is working properly, especially the choke, you should only have to pump once to set the choke, however if the car has been sitting for a few days it nay require a couple extra pumps as you crank the engine. Have you checked if there is fuel in the carb when you try and start the car. It may have leaked out or evaporated and would take some cranking to fill the bowl. If so pumping will not help until fuel reaches the carb.
How long since you've done a tune up, points, plugs and wires. If they aren't up ti snuff it'll be hard to start.
Using 93 octane won't make a damn bit of difference. If your engine is stock compression you will only need regular or mid grade.

EsoWuhn

I feel its fuel related, because after the 10th key turn, and I pump while turning the key itll start up and die out. Then if it starts and runs, itll run and try to die out. Usually i tap the gas until it rough idles and let it warm itself up.

this morning I re-set the choke, and im having the same issue. Once that 10th key turn came, i started pumping and she turned over and ran rough. Then as she died, couple pumps kept her alive but same; she tried to die again. So a couple more pumps, etc, usually about 10-13 pumps will keep it on and rough til she warms up. Im still thinking accelerator pump, but as I’m not a pro; i am FULLY open to advice and things to look for.

when I check the bowls, there doesnt seem to be much, if any gas. Just changed cap and rotor, and ignition coils a couple of months ago. Definitely need wires and plugs; but as I said before im trying to get it as close to right with old parts in, before putting in new. That way when the new comes in, its gassed up and ready to go.

oldcutlass

Does your distributor have a vac advance on it?

EsoWuhn

It does, and it is functioning as it should. When I first put the new setup together and timed it, I checked then. Then an additional two times after when I had to readjust time

oldcutlass

When you set the timing to 20*, was that with vac advance disconnected?

EsoWuhn

yessir. From my understanding, whenever you set time you do it with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged

EsoWuhn

Update: Replaced the accelerator pump this morning, better but still quite a while to start up. And still hesitation when accelerating. Gonna drive it and check over the next few days, maybe it’ll take a while to level out.

The Delta’s nearing 93,000 original miles, so I assume with age I’m going to want to replace my fuel lines and pump. All original equipment minus the tune up I got about 6 or so years ago and a couple of cooling components; but again this will be the first car that I’m diving into as deep as I am. Definitely appreciative for all the guys here and for all your advice !

Vintage Chief

I read through your thread. I am not familiar with the exact specifications of a 1980 Delta 88 350, but my understanding is it remains equipped with OEM standard ignition contact points (from what you said everything is original except for the carb swap). That being the case, it is critical you first establish the dwell and you establish the dwell correctly. There is no amount of fine-tuning you can perform via setting the timing and/or the A/F mixture screws (based upon vacuum readings) without first establishing the correct dwell angle. In fact, you can place yourself far outside the curve of a good tune-up attempting corrective procedures with the timing and A/F mixture if the dwell angle is not correctly established.

You must:
(1) Establish correct dwell angle;
(2) Set timing; and,
(3) Set vacuum (A/F mixture)

They must be performed in that order - nothing short of that order.

Vintage Chief

I may have mis-spoke. I thought the 1980 Delta 88 had contact breaker points which would make establishing the dwell critical. It looks like it has an expanding dwell (HEI) instead, which would make my point mute.

oldcutlass

1980= hei

Vintage Chief

I screwed the pooch on that one.

Fun71

For the most part all GM from 1975-up = HEI

Vintage Chief

Gotcha - I couldn't recall the year. Thanks Kenneth.

EsoWuhn

I replaced the accelerator pump yesterday and there was definitely gas in the bowls. This morning it took about 6 key turns to get it started; but still experiencing hesitation when I go to drive off the line. Oddly enough the first attempt to start it used 4 pumps and it automatically started up and IMMEDIATELY died out. It gives me hope I'm not too far off from a fix, but one thing I was considering this morning is using the third hole on the carburetor for the accelerator pump; maybe i'm getting fuel but not enough? Of course I don't want to send TOO much and just stall myself out when I try to accelerate, just trying to figure and fine-tune. Any thoughts or ideas; anyone?

Vintage Chief

There are very specific methods for determining the correct functioning ability of a distributor vacuum advance, I will add one of the tell-tale signs of a bad distributor vacuum advance is the sluggish bogging down (and often poor idle) of a vehicle when it begins to move off the line under load. The rubber diaphragms inside a vacuum advance deteriorate - they're thin rubber, they're part of required maintenance on these classics. Perform your own Google Search(es) and look for symptoms of faulty, leaking distributor vacuum advance.

EsoWuhn

I stated earlier that I checked my vacuum advance multiple times, and though yes I could have been wrong in my method of checking, the way that I learned produced a result. So are you saying I should check it again according to a google search of how to? or would you like to explain to me how you think I should check it

Vintage Chief

EsoWuhn

i applied air pressure directly to the vaccum, and engine rpms raised... just trying to understand and make sure i got this correct; that would be a sign of a FUNCTIONAL advance, yes?

Vintage Chief

IMO, no. FWIW, the only method I find to test the functionality of any diaphragm (vacuum advance, choke break, etc.) is to remove the device which contains the diaphragm (in your case the vacuum advance canister & mechanical link itself) and apply a vacuum. I have performed my tests exactly how this guy did his @ 7:45 in the video I provided.

Cutlass Fan

Still sounds like a malfunctioning choke to me. Did you ever check to make sure that the choke closes fully when cold after you floor the gas pedal to set it? When you say it takes X key turns, how long are you keeping the starter engaged and are releasing the key because the engine fires?