Joffroi

Hi all,

This weekend I tried to take my 72 Cutlass Supreme to a camp site the family had about 50 miles from my house. This was going to be the longest drive I've done with any of my Cutlasses so I was pretty excited. Unfortunately, it didn't have the greatest results....

The Trip
The camp was about 50 miles from my house. Half on a 70MPH interstate, then the rest on 50-60MPH roads leading into the 10MPH camp grounds. The drive there was FANTASTIC! Gauges all seemed to report very good readings and I really enjoyed the cruise listening to some music. Made it to the camp ground without any problems until I hit the 10MPH road. Feet aware from the camp site and essentially idling to the spot, my engine dies. It sounds exactly like it just stop getting fuel (I did fill up the tank completely before the trip).

The Problem
At the site, I tried to kick it back on and with each attempt, it just didn't seem to get gas to get kicking. We went to a corner store to get some starter fluid and carb cleaner. We though that maybe the carb was a little dirty and causing the problems. After spaying a good bit, we were able to get the car started. It even worked in idle for a while and had no issues in the few mile test drive.

The Problem Part 2
The next day I wanted to take it on another test drive to ensure I could make it home the following day. The car took a few tries to start, but I didn't really think anything of it being an old car. I drove out the camp site on 40MPH roads without any problems. I then hit 20MPH roads where it involved a lot of coasting. Again, in the low RPMs my car just dies. I was luckily able to coast into parking lot. We tried the start fluid and carb cleaner trick again, but this time it just wouldn't work.

How could this day get any worse?
While going back and forth between my trunk to get tools, I ended up locking my only set of keys to the car in the trunk. Talk about Murphy's Law.

I ended up having to call AAA to get the car towed back to my house. Since the wheels were locked, this was an adventure in itself.

Solutions?
With the information I know, I think its the fuel filter (s)? This is my first Oldsmobile that didn't have the original engine and components so this is a little different for me. I have a Holley 4bbl Carb and I assume the fuel filters may be in the yellow circles from the picture below. I did check the line where the green arrow is pointing so I assume fuel is getting past that point.

bndSqOE.jpg

Any thoughts or idea on what my problem would be are greatly appreciated. Also, any information on how to get into a trunk would also be very helpful (FYI... I have a sound system in the trunk that is drilled into the back so I can't get access by removing the back seats).

My wife isn't exactly that "happy" since 1) the car mess took up another 5 hours of what was suppose to be fun camping 2) The car is taking her space in the garage since it had to be place diagonally with the wheels locked, so it might be a while before I can actually start troubleshooting physically the problem but any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

rjohnson442

The fuel filter should be before the pump. You should get a fuel pressure gauge as well, put it between the green arrow and the fuel pump.

coppercutlass

there is fuel filters that could have been installed by the previous owner in those locations. When i bought my holley they where provided but i went with an inline filter after my fuel cell before the pump. Also make sure your needle and seat arent sticking. I had this issue with mine it had all kinds of weird idle problems. and it even flooded over pretty bad once. a fuel psi gauge will help too. if there is no filters in any of these locations then chances are there is crud floating around the passeges of your carb. Also is your problem just low rpm idle issue ? I also see stains at the back of the manifold which indicate a possible fuel leak.

captjim

If the car would NOT start using starter fluid, fuel isn't the problem unless it flooded so bad the plugs fouled. Unlikely, you would smell it. Does it still have points? If so, I would replace the points and condersor first, set the dwell and timing. I have seen bad points cause some wierd problems.

coppercutlass

Looks like an msd pro billiet jim. but I know bad modules on hei's when hot tend to cause problems. possible dist. issue .

Joffroi

I haven't seen any leaking and those stains where there since I got the car (year ago... I should really clean it up). This problem is definitely only during low RPMs. Occasionally if I just really pushed down on the peddle I was able to get it all started again if it died on idle.

I explained on my site, when I push the throttle cable, I do see the spring in blue go down and gas enter the carb.

ZsNziID.jpg

Sorry, I really don't know much about carbs so a lot of specific terminology is a little foreign to me.

coppercutlass

I mention the stains becasue it's directly under the fuel line and accelerator pump that could be bad when fuel hits a hot manifold. it will always look dry since the heat of the manifold dries it fast and when you shut it off the carb is only under pressure for a short period of time. If your distributor checks out i would go through the carb a little bit of crud in the carb will casue alot of grief. A simple take appart and clean all the passages with carb cleaner new gaskets and simple parts for under 100 bucks you will have a near new carb and holleys are relatively simple to rebuild. Thats if your carb is the culprit. You could have some crud floating around or possible bad power valve . Was it runnig rich ? check the plugs. Also just thought of this i had an engine die once randomly turns out the rocker worked it's way loose and it shut off and would not start again. But you mentioned it ran when you added starter fluid so it can very well be a carb issue. But yet again electronics can fail once heat is presented. Check the simple stuff first and work your way down the line.

( i just realized you have a vac. secondary carb disregard the rear accelerator pump leaking comment your fuel bowl gasket could be leaking).

captjim

Spraying starting fluid in the carb SHOULD eliminate fuel starvation. So, unless it is flooding, I think ignition issues.

oldcutlass

I'd do a few things:

1. Make sure I have 12v at the coil, both in start and running modes. make sure the distributor is tight and did not rotate.

2. Verify a good solid spark at a spark plug.

3. Get rid of that home made fuel line and replace it with a proper one and replace fuel filter.

4. Hook up a fuel gauge and look for 5-7#'s of pressure.

5. Verify 2 solid streams of fuel spraying into the carb when operating throttle lever.

I'm perplexed that the car would not start immediately with starting fluid. That stuff will burn easily.

1970-W30

Some things that don't look right to me, not all will have anything to do with his problem. Looks like an old 3310 Holley, manual choke that's not hooked up at all. Probably running so rich that it dies at low RPM. Float level could be to high, it is very easy to check, with engine idling (when you get it started again) remove the fitting right next to your fuel line inlet for both the primary and secondary one at a time, and fuel should almost but not quite dribble out. If it just pours out either the primary or secondary end, then it running way to rich. A little piece of crap in the needle and seat assembly will cause rich running which can kill the engine at very low rpm like a 10mph road which is probably bumpy making the problem worse. Running at highway speeds could use up the extra gas as the engine as it's spinning faster with more of a load and the problem might not show up. Also it looks like the PCV hose is hooked to a single port on the manifold, that's a no-no. The Holley has a port right at the back of the carb for that. An engine that's flooded will not respond very well to starting fluid, I would pull a few plugs and go from there.
Back in the day (mid 70s) I used to sell those Holley's new for $79.95, $69.95 for the 1850 Holleys, my two best sellers.......

coppercutlass

Not to be a smart @$$ but isnt the 3310 a vacuum secondary model. this looks like a double pumper. Looks like a 4150 . Ahhhh i stand corrected i had to double check i just noticed the vac. sec. my bad. for some reason i neglected to notice the vac. diaphram housing. i should have known better since i have both a 4150 and a 3310.

oldcutlass

That is a vacuum secondary carb Copper. The butterfly is open so the choke is probably tied off.

coppercutlass

I saw that lol and corrected my self . My bad. i didnt pay to much attention at the pass. side where the vac. housing is. and im used to seeing the 3310's with the metering plave vs. rear metering block. everything still applies that i mentined minus the rear accelerator pump.

rjohnson442

Spark and fuel pressure first I'd say. Float level is what I was gonna say next. With the choke open like that you'd have to keep the RPM up a little with the pedal to keep it running anyway for a little bit.

Lady72nRob71

Do check to see if your plugs got fouled in case it was running too rich. That happened to me long ago.

Joffroi

This sounds really close to what is going on with my car. Pardon my lack of knowledge with this, but here are some of my questions

1) Many mentioned the choke. I don't think it has ever been hooked up. Do I need to hook it up to anything?

2) To check if I'm running to rich, you mentioned removing the fuel line inlets one at a time. Just to make sure, are those the things circled in yellow?

3) You also mentioned a little piece of crap in the needle and seat assemble could be causing this. I assume those are internal parts of the carb. Would I just need to start opening the thing up and check for this then replace a few seals to put it back together? (I've obviously never taken about a carb before)


4) Do you have a picture of a correct configuration to get a better understanding.


Again, thanks for everyone for their explanations and answering my questions that may seem like "no brainers". I'm obviously more of a computer guy and got into Oldsmobiles to learn about cars.

Joffroi

Oh yea, referring back to my second "idiot problem".... any other ways to get into the trunk without calling a locksmith or going through the back seats? Is there a hidden trunk release?

coppercutlass

Joffori you need a choke cable to activate that choke plenty cheap or you can buy the electric choke conversion. That's just so the engine warms up and you don't have to hold the pedal down until the engine runs on it's own. To check if you are running rich check your spark plugs a carbon black soot covered plug tells you it's running rich., but what 1970w30 was saying is check your float levels the sloted screws on the side of the bowl is how to check if it's too high or low. A little trickle out is all you need out of both if it pours out then the float level is too high and the engine will run rich as a result of over fueling. The needle and seat assembly is under the adjustement screw of the float adjustment which is at the top of the fuel bowl.

Joffroi

My spark plugs seem to be fine. They all look like below.
YcHRlEX.jpg

I'll see if I can check the other suggestion when more time permits.

coppercutlass

take one out of the head check the tip for carbon build up/ sooty appearance.

Al Sanchez

Is it me or does the throttle cable looks like it's not aligned right... Should it not be at a more straight angle

1970-W30

I don't mean to be rude, but I strongly encourage you to get a hold of a mechanic to help you with your problem, There are way to many opportunities to screw things up if you don't know what you are doing. It's more then likely is a fairly simple problem but will require some expertise to correct.....
Just my 2 cents worth......

coppercutlass

The throttle cable should be straighter. here is what mine looks like it's a straight shot. I made this bracket so that i would get full wide open throttle.

coppercutlass

x2 with 1970-w30. dont turn a noodle into spaghetti.

MDchanic

x3, I'm sorry to say. You know I'm the LAST guy to suggest going to a "professional [thief]" but in this case...

After the spark plug question in Post#19, I think you really need someone there in the garage with you who knows what he's doing to look things over and show you what you need to know. If there are any CO members near you, I would suggest looking into having one of them visit, in return for a case of his favorite.

I agree with the idea that this could be caused by flooding; all of the described details could be consistent with that, and other common problems, such as inadequate fuel supply and electrical issues, don't seem to fit the picture as well.
The problem is that if it were flooding, this should have been easy to diagnose at the time, and the fact that it was not returns me to the first two paragraphs above.

As for the trunk, sorry. The only ways in are

1. through the back seat (impossible because of your audio equipment)
2. turning the lock cylinder (with a key or a pick)
3. destroying the lock cylinder (or the trunk lid)

I'd recommend learning to pick locks (time consuming) or calling a locksmith (expensive),
and also having a spare key made.

- Eric

coppercutlass

If you can find a bunch of 1\4 inch extensions and a 1\4 in drive bit holder with a flat head assuming you can get past the audio stuff you might be able to get in there. Or better yet go buy a cats paw or a really long magnet to fish your keys out. Remember you can also get to it from the top of the package tray where the stock 6x9's would mount. Just use a flashlight to make sure you can see good in there.

oldcutlass

Seriously? I'm going to have to agree with Eric on this.

Joffroi

You gotta learn somewhere, but it obviously appears I'm out of my element here (considering my personal knowledge) and the chances of me screwing up are too high. I better stick to my website building for now.

No offense or rudeness is taken. I'm not pretending to know more then I claim here. As many of you mentioned, I believe its a quick and easy fix... just to the person who knows what they are doing. I'll call around and get quotes on locksmiths and see what that might run or maybe do some googling on it myself. Thanks for all the help and advice. Its quite an embarrassing story for me.

btw... if any of you CO members are in the KC area and don't mind coming over to help, PM me. I can offer web design, beer, bbq grilling (and even cash) for help!

rjohnson442

Holley does have a lot of great how to video's online from Youtube. I'd suggest doing your homework and if you don't feel safe doing the work take it to someone who does. Remember we are playing with fire here with running engines and open float bowls. At least with the knowledge you've gained The shop won't assume you know nothing and charge you 300 bucks to replace the Flux Capacitor on your carb

Rocket Richard

We've all got to start somewhere.

Maybe your best bet is to call a locksmith and move the car to make the wife happy. If you want to drive more than tinker, take it to a mechanic. Better yet, find someone who can work on it with you and teach you. If you want to learn, you can start with basic theory. Go to a site like howstuffworks.com and learn. Try this link: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm

You can also get a good repair manual for your car and read everything. The tune-up section will be a good place to start. Read it as many times as you like!

oldcutlass

Ok, sorry Joffroi didn't mean to sound rude. It's just your statement threw me off. Can you check the things I listed in thread #9?

Also I would get a lock smith to open your trunk and make another set of keys first.

Rocket Richard is correct we all have to start somewhere.

coppercutlass

I have the book on holley carbs and it explains the carbs functions in detail if no one can help you and some one charges you more than 275 which is what that carb cost's new . You can borrow my book just pay for shipping or buy the book. It helped me out a lot. Knowledge is power and I have a ton of refrence books on engine building,carbs, differentials, transmissions. Teaching your self is not easy but I think it's better than relying on a mechanic all the time. It takes time I been at it for 8 years and I'm still learning.

Rocket Richard

LOL, reminds me of when I was a bit new to computers. This guy was showing me the ropes and he asked me to right click. So, I did just what he said and wrote the word "click" for him right there on the screen. My friend had a good laugh.

Rickman48

Copper - the original 3310 was a dual inlet, dual metering block 780 VS, [I've had a few]
And Holley decieded to 'cheapen them up' - 750 with that rear jet plate, single inlet,
manual choke, VS.
Not the same carb, and they called it the '3310-1' and then a '3310-2' - not even close!

coppercutlass

I know rick. I caught my self their. I have a dual inlet 3310 with the jet plate. The bigger metering block threw me off. Well aware of the mistake.

Joffroi

Hey all, I just wanted to give an update on what was going on with my car just in case you were still following this thread. You can also let me know if you think the mechanic is right with his diagnosis and the initial price.

I got my car towed today and just got word from the mechanic. They are almost positive that the culprit to all this is my fuel pump. They said it wasn't doing anything at all plugged up directly to their power. They really don't think my carb needs anything aside from possibly a little tuning. They are hoping to be able to still replace it today for a total of $365 before tax. At this price, I'm hoping my car starts right up after.

While my car was still in my garage, I just happened to crawl underneath to take a pic of my fuel pump. It is below.

61PW6Sn.jpg

Fair price? You think they are right?

yankees

I had similar issues driving around town for 30 minutes or so when running an electric pump back in the day. I personally would replace the electric pump with a mechanical pump and install a $15 fuel pressure gauge in the 1/8 plug that is in your chrome fuel line. Just unscrew the 1/8 inch plug and twist in the new gauge (use liquid teflon lightly or teflon tape to prevent leaks. Pretty easy to do. Don't get another electric if u don't have to. Mechanical pumps are cheap and a simple bolt on, but it looks like you have Edelbrock heads which could pose clearance problems with a mechanical pump. I would also install a $10 see through fuel filter on the front of the chrome fuel line inlet and then unscrew the fuel bowls on the Holley and clean them out with carb cleaner. It's only 4 bolts on each bowl (4 in the front and 4 in the back. Bench setting floats in your carb is simple when the fuel bowls are off. See youtube for bench setting floats as it's very easy once you see it done. I personally have to see things done than have someone explain it to me.

$365 to buy and to replace a pump is ridiculous.

rjohnson442

Way To much! say pump cost 100-150 and less than one hour job with those rubber lines. comes out to about 200 dollars in Labor!!!! is this shop hiring by chance x2 on the Mech pump(30 bucks). I believe they make an adapter plate for the pump to fit with edelbrock heads. Anyone?

Joffroi

At least I can confirm that the fuel pump was the problem. My car seems to run really well now. I know they didn't replace my pump with the same one I had so hopefully there are no issues with that.

But when they told me that price, I was pretty much stuck. I didn't want to pay the 60-70 to get my car towed back to my house and didn't want to deal with the chance that it wasn't the problem. Although I love everything about my car, I'm starting to miss my prior cutlass that had all the original and simple parts.

Could have been worse I guess, there was actually a really nice looking 1971 Cutlass Convertible in the shop that had a crack head gasket.