1978 Oldsmobile Omega

So as some know, I had planned to put a set of C heads on my 350... Well I talked my father out of us doing it because it would be a crap shoot for compression and power and so on, so I picked up a set of 7a heads for $120, real nice guy. So now I could just bolt them on after cleaning. And once I razor bladed the mating surface they were like new!! So here is my question, the 7a heads have the dual springs on the intake side, but with a goal of fairly mid to higher power, am I best to get a full set of dual springs? What material for the valve keepers? And I would like to leave the valve sizes alone, just new valves.
Also have some other questions......

firefrost gold

Dont most cam kits come with springs and lifter to match ?

tru-blue 442

Quick question:
What are the #'s
on the timing shelf?

Just trying to confirm the
block you are using, some
would like to know.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

Well of course there are kits... But it see most kits are double non roller, I would prefer double roller timing kit, and I am also not sure what type of cam I want to go with.
It seems all of the kits that are below like $900 are double non roller. I may have to do a lot more looking for a kit.

oddball

Compression is not a crap shoot as long as you know the measurements of the head, block, rods and pistons. If you don't know those, then anything you build is a crap shoot. It's worth nailing down the details.

It can be a bad idea to reuse springs on a second hand head unless you have a good idea on their history, what they actually are, and have their pressures checked.
My '72 did NOT have double springs on the intake from the factory. Are you sure that they're double springs and not just the anti-bind shell on the inside?

Selection of valvetrain parts depends highly on the cam. If you stay mid to mild (say, less than 0.55" valve lift, less than 250deg @ 0.050"), then standard keepers and single springs (appropriately selected!) are fine. But, it all depends on the cam. Re-using the stock rockers also depends on the cam and type of head gasket.

As a side note, I think a big block head on a 350 is a stretch unless the 350 build is pretty stout to make use of it. I'm running ebrock heads on a 403, but the extra displacement makes that easier.

oddball

You just combined cam kits and timing chains. Don't do that.

Buy the timing chain (and sprockets - that's assumed) separately. Preferably Cloyes or another large respected brand.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

No problem,395558, it is a 1974 block, the number is from a picture I have but I believe it is correct.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I guess I worded it wrong, I meant that I didn't want to have to put a lot of money into the heads to have a result similar to the small block heads, I just couldn't afford to have a lot of milling and machining done, so I went with the sb heads.
And I agree about the springs, I wouldn't reuse them although they were just on a running motor, who knows how long.

I am going to leave most of the fancy stuff to my machinist.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

That's what I would have preferred to do, I was just looking at the kits to see what they offered, simply because firefrost gold had mentioned the kits. I didn't like the idea of the timing kit included because I simply didn't like them

oddball

Most cam kits are just cam and lifters, with springs as an option. Retainers and keepers are almost never included.
I've never seen timing chains in kits offered by the big companies, although I'm sure PAW and similar sell "rebuild in a box" kits with all the finest bottom shelf parts available.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I was a little suprised seeing kits with a cam, lifters, retainers, keepers, timing chain and gears, absolutly all of them were by comp cams.. Some people live and die by comp cams and some hate them. I think I like them but yet to be determined.
But I myself would prefer to buy a cam and lifter kit and then buy everything else seperate. Because I defiantly don't want the timing kit, and you don't have much of a choice in what you get. Some of These cams in the kits are over .05

Run to Rund

Olds tried BBO heads when designing the W31 and decided on the bigger valves in the SBO heads. Valve springs are very important to the life of the camshaft. First you need to know installed height with good retainers and locks (I still use Isky 507STA retainers and VL1132 locks, but note you need to use their inner springs as the inner seat needs a slightly larger spring than many brands of inners). Then pick springs to give the recommended tensions closed and open.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

That's actually a really cool fact on the w31. I think it will be best and safest to just get new springs, will have to talk to my machinist about the particular ones, but of course if you change one thing.... Everything else has to match.

DoubleV

Do you know why?

olds 307 and 403

Do a decent mill and add larger valves, especially if new ones are needed. Get your machinist to use a bowl hog too. With Felpro or similar gaskets, you will be at 8.6 to 1. Smitty from M+J Proformance has .011" shim gaskets, would put you around 9 to 1. He was in the hospital but is on Real Olds Power. Cutlassefi does custom grinds and is a Comp, Erson and Lunati dealer.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

It would seem like they would try it because of the bigger valves, they probably found a lack in performance and kept the small chambers with the bigger valves.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I may see what my machinist thinks about milling the heads at all, the cc is already pretty good at 64-68, and I would like to stick with the valve sizes in it. He had said he only uses Keith black pistons... I haven't read a single think about them... Do they even make olds flat tops.

olds 307 and 403

Yes, there are a few but your compression will be over 10 to 1 with 7A heads. I thought you were just puttings heads on your existing engine, as is?

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

Hmmm sorry about that, it was part of my old thread about having bb heads on it, the whole motor is a redo, only inside pieces staying are the crank and mains... As far as I know. But I basically wanted to have it around 10:1 or higher but not crazy. There are some cams that say they need a high compression... Would a bit over 10:1 be considered a high compression?

captjim

Yes, on an iron headed engine that runs on pump gas.

I got dizzy reading this. What exactly are your goals and what is your budget? In these type posts, I usually recommend copying an existing combo that matches both.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I don't really have goals.. If I do I don't know what they are, basically just something to show strangers what an Oldsmobile does, something that if I want to use the power it's there. I am building the motor once.
Some things I won't change and I just want to do it well and on the cheap side, getting done what I need to by myself and having my machinist do block work and help plan.
I will
Bore .030
OL4B
7a heads
Roller rockers
Double roller timing
Keith black flat tops
New valves at stock size
Cam undetermined over .05
Springs undetermined
Either stock connecting rods or chevy 6 inch
Edelbrock 750
Headers undetermined
Of course a trip to my machinist can change something
I have found it difficult to find a build similar to mine, most people have a ton of machine work done at a shop, I can justify doing that because I don't need every possible HP, but I will of course have work done within reason. Also these "budget builds" I see are on a huge budget.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

You took me out of context there, I understand that 10:1 is high for pump, but the question was for a high compression cam.

captjim

This makes no sense to me.

captjim

So, you have no defined goals and a non-stated budget, have things you won't change, but want to do well on the "cheap" side. Interesting. Good luck......

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

Then you go tell summit and cam manufacturers

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

... Hm well it's pretty simple... you don't need goals or a budget, just a direction and keep going, and if you change everything you won't get anywhere. Thanks but no thanks

captjim

I disagree vehemently, this is a recipe for disaster, but I will not interject further in your thread. Good luck.

olds 307 and 403

Pretty sure KB doesn't make Olds 350 piston other than big dish cast garbage. Probe, CP, Diamond and Speedpro all make forged pistons.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I had originally wanted the speed pro pistons... But from the bit my father talked to my machinist he said he only uses KB... Although I question their capability and i don't see any forged flats by them.

70cutty

When it comes to oldsmobiles of the shelf piston and parts selection is a bit limited. Your machinist only uses KB?? Maybe it's time for a new machinist.

You have to have a goal as all of the components have to match and compliment each other, from Carb to rear end.

Here is my 350 build maybe it will help you

Pistons SpeedPro 6cc dish .010 in the block
Reconditioned rods, crank turned and chamfered.
Heads are #6, big valves Ferrea, 4 angle valve job, fully ported, crossover plugged, exhaust divider welder, milled .030, Lunati springs, Comp roller rockers.
Camshaft Lunati custom grind (thank you Mark - Cutlassefi it sounds great runs even better, just what I wanted)
225/231@.050, with .512/.517 lift. 108 LSA, advanced 3 degrees.
Performer RPM, milled and port matched, powder coated black .
Hughes 2500 stall torque converter.
Hooker Ceramic Coated headers.
MSD Ready to Run Distributor
Street Avenger 670cfm carb
3.42 posi rear end courtesy of jim - monzaz
9.8:1 compression runs on 91 octane gas

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

Just a quick look over and it looks like a nice setup, have to look it over in depth later.
The issue is that he is a great guy and his work is genuine and speaks for itself, I need to talk to him more to see what's what. But Im not sure if KB will be right for it.

DoubleV

Oh you very well do need a goal and a budget! How can you say you don't? That's crazy. It's not too hard to ask yourself 'what am I looking to achieve and how much money can I afford'. You then ask the experts and they'll tell you if it's feasible or not and can help you steer you in the right direction if it's not.

tru-blue 442

I must agree friend.
Captjim is one of the fellows
on the board that know these
engines inside and out. GLWB.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

Although this particular can of worms is closed.........I am not worried about a budjet because I'm just buying a part at a time over time because I am not building it immediately. Goals... I don't want something particular I don't care much for the hp outcome, just that it is respectable. If you want to call that a goal then go ahead. I don't see why all engine questions must end in arguments. I understand goals are important in many cases, I just want respectable and above average.

70cutty

I don't think anybody is trying to start an argument. Just trying to point you in a right direction. They are trying to say that you need to know what you want.
Building an engine is not just slapping bunch of parts together, that's why is important to have a goal.
It's very easy to spend $4-5k and have a worse performing car than what you started with.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

And I appreciate all help I can get, don't get me wrong, it will be planned out with a machinist who has an endless amount of knowlage and experience. But I like to farmiliarize myself with what's out there, I know I have goals... I just don't know what they are to write down, there's no particular thing that I need, I guess i could put a number on it and say at least 350 HP... But I want reliable, that's the real goal I guess, reliability.

holiday88

Does your machinist realise you're building an olds and not a chev? Your best bet for pistons are the speedpros. Should be easy to find in Ontario and not too expensive. The 5.8 dish should give you close to 9.5 compression, flat tops closer to 10:1.
These are the part #.
Speed Pro L2321F30 5.8cc dish

Speed Pro L2320F30 flat tops

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

To my suprise.... He basically specialized in olds... Well I won't go that far but he knows a lot. I was suprised someone In my area happend to be a pro in machining olds.
I would prefer the flat tops for sure but I guess I can't really decide until planning it with him, depends how it all works out.

olds 307 and 403

I am sure he will use the CP, Probe or Diamond pistons. They are lighter with a modern ring pack. They have 1.5 or 3cc valve reliefs. The CP pistons are meant for just a proper block hone, not an overbore.

1978 Oldsmobile Omega

I have never heard of CP, I'm going to look into them. So am I correct in saying that you mean they are for a freshened boar and not a boar out to say 0.030... I'm just trying to dumb it down... I'm not totally good with all terms yet.