Hot 442

Hey all,

I've recently acquired a 72 442 from Mississippi. I'm restoring the car and it is planned to be a weekend cruiser, a nice driver, with a bump in performance.

Just dropped the 350 with #7 heads off at the engine shop on Friday. Haven't given them any instructions as yet but I'm expecting a call tomorrow or tuesday to ask what I want. I'm told the owner knows Olds motors well from some local Olds guys.

I'm planning an Edelbrock 7111 intake, Edelbrock carb and maybe a mondello 230/236 cam to roughen up the idle and get a bit more out of the motor. I'm not looking to break the bank on it but I'm wondering what Olds engine basics I should ensure get looked after or what recommendations any of you might have for me?

My goal would be in the ballpark of 350-400 hp on 93 octane pump gas. Are my goals realistic and how do I get there?

captjim

A proven 355 combo is flat top pistons, RPM intake, and the next size down cam, the Engle 20-22 (226/230). Cam choices are endless. Spend some $ on the heads, larger valves, quality multi-angle valve job with some bowl work. 3.73 gear and a good converter, you should have a car that sounds good, runs good on pump gas, with decent manners. I am not a great fan of E-brock carbs, I like Holleys better, but that is a personal choice. Headers and good exhaust, obviously.

BTW, a 72 350 should have 7a heads on it.

Hot 442

Agreed.

I was planning on a nice lumpy cam - and heard the Mondello in a youtube video here:

http://youtu.be/OZm0pArhflM

The guy specifiys what cam he used in the 'comments' section.

What would you recommend in terms of pistons/rods etc? Forged or cast?
Again, nothing serious in terms of what its gonna do. No track time etc...just street time.

I was planning on a little port work to the stock heads - the E brocks are way too much dough. Basically just what you said...bowl work, egr 'bumps' removed etc. I was looking at the Hooker headers as well...what size exhaust?? 2 1/2"??

captjim

The only pistons that I am aware of that will give you the desired Cr are forged. Make sure the piston/wall clearance is adequate, .0045 +/-. Stock rods should be fine.

oldcutlass

That sounds very nice! Don't shortchange your build, put in a good set of pistons!

HWYSTR455

Just went through a 350 recently, your goals are very reasonable. 350 from a 350 you can do with your eyes closed. Check the build I just did, very basic, and the desktop dyno showed like 425hp:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...e-project.html

Pistons, don't bother with anything but forged, and rods, you might as well get aftermarket, because by the time you're done prepping the factory ones, you will be within a couple bucks of the aftermarket.

Summit has the SRP pistons in stock for $480, they are at times hard to find, fyi. The speedpro/sealed power ones are available, about the same price, but a heavier pin.

A lot of the Mondello info is dated, but still valid. When it comes to cams, no reason to buy a re-labeled one from Mondello. Crower and Comp have proven profiles, contact a builder for suggestions. (Your target examples are pretty close).

I've seen both #7 and #7a heads on '72 350s, think they went through what was on the shelf depending on contruction date. Regardless, either are fine, even if some want to argue the hardened seat thing.

Mild port & pocket work helps plenty, as does removing the exhaust hump. Modify the drains too.

Do your homework. Contact builders, several of them, and compare notes. I used OPP for my machine work, because no one local had a torque plate. BTR is another reputable Olds shop.

.

captjim

Desktop Dyno is not accurate, especially on Olds engines. All due respect, no WAY that build is close to 425 hp. 400+ Hp on stock-ish heads and a cam with .462 lift???

Please post a link to an aftermarket Olds SBO rod.

cutlassefi

X2, but I like the Probe piston, light, strong and with a good ring pack. As mentioned, alittle bowl work, the right cam (an Erson TQ40) and the rest as mentioned and you should be in the mid to upper 300's with a good useable torque curve.

HWYSTR455

Actual numbers I believe were 412hp, from DD, and I've seen it pretty close on a number of times/builds I've done. (and others) Even at 10% it's 370, and a reputable build believe it's better than that. From experience building similar engines. My target was 350, I feel I made it. And the Olds isn't much different than a Pontiac 400, with more stroke, and I've done many 400hp+ 400s.

I'm not saying it's dead nuts on, but it's close enough to make calculations by. Once the car is dialed, I'll chassis dyno it just for arguement's sake.

As for rods, you use SBC rods, have the crank prepped for them. Talk to a builder, it's been done for some time now, common practice.

Tough crowd...

.

Liegekiller

If there is even a little work done to the stock heads of an Olds 350 Rocket you can get 400+ HP. I would think that everyone on this forum knows that the Olds 350 Rocket is the best of the 350's because of it's larger big block head design. You put the right cam combo in this setup and you are there. The bad part of the design is the valve angle, but a little work from a machine shop and you have that fixed. Let's just wait for some dyno numbers I guess.

captjim

I know how to use SBC rods, but you stated "aftermarket", IMO the implication was a bolt on set currently not available. By the time you buy SBC rods, bush the pistons and work the crank, you are WAY over prepped stock SBO rods, which are plenty for most applications. Now, use 4.125 400 SBC pistons with the SBC rods, I am with you on that.

I restate, IMO no way you are close to 400 HP with unported heads and a cam that mild, I just don't see how. Here is a lionk to a dyno'd 362. More compression, more cam 750 Proform, big valves, ported heads,
http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=59708

Liegekiller

so you don't say if you did any valve work, which as I said is a weak link in these heads. How much porting was done?
That being said I do see that you are making good HP and Torq, but I will admit I would have thought it would have been a little higher. I am not saying who is right here, but I would love to know what these real Dyno numbers are so we can stop guessing

coppercutlass

forget the dyno tune at the track. desktop dyno might say im making 410. The dyno might show a little less. Once its in and bolted together it can change . for example i run a th400 on my sbo powered 72 cutlass. Im sure if i went to a th350 i would pick up a little in the qurater. Gear, weight and alot of other things such as tune go into play. Alot can change from the time you take it off the dyno and bolt it in your car. the quarter mile times wont lie . Dyno tunning is nice to figure out max hp. but i doubt alot of people take the engine straight off the dyno and it runs perfect on the car . It will always need to be re tunned for the drive train combo . Im no pro i might be wrong this is just my opinon . That is unless it's a chassis dyno but even then they arent 100 percent you can have 400 hp. on the dyno but be running 350 by what you mph and weight show in the quarter .

HWYSTR455

Interesting on that link that when at 8.5cr and .040 over, it made 357hp. And the cam was a poor selection for that combo.

The 5 heads I have have the larger valve treatment, and some (what I consider mild) bowl and port work. Also port matched the intake.

Dyno numbers vary from shop to shop, but regardless, I will dyno it and post. Going to be a chassis dyno though, and it's only for documentation, the car is a gift to my daughter...(will be plenty of power for her)...

.

coppercutlass

hey as long as it can hold it's own on the street and roast the tires. Thats all it takes for a fun street car .

Hot 442

Okay fellas...I appreciate all the replies and advice.

Heres an update on the motor...

stock block .030 over
stock crank (.010 I think)
hyper. pistons
Holley carb w elec choke
Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold
7a Heads - no port work with larger valves
Lunati Bracket Master cam
MSD distributor / ignition / coil / wires

also I'm planning...
Hooker Headers, TH350 rebuild and posi unit.

The above motor stuff was recommended from the shop owner who's owned a few Olds products in the past and does quite a few Old motors here locally...

Anyone have experience with the Lunati Barcket Master cam? I want a nice lumpy idle....
They sell three - one is 280/290 a 290/300 and a 383/283....
Just a weekend fun driver here guys...no track time etc....which one?

cutlassefi

Please please please do not buy those cams, did I say please? They're crap and lazy and sold by every tom, dick, and harry in the industry.

Thanks

captjim

Exactly which "Hyper" pistons? Dish? P/H? Crucial info to choose the proper cam. Cr will probably be less than you think. Any of thiose cams will probably be too big/lazy as Mark stated.

Also, IMO, larger valves without a little bowl work is a waste of time.

cutlassefi

My next question as well. X2.

Hot 442

As for pistons - not sure which ones he's planning...just advised that he would go with hypereutectic pistons as opposed to cast etc.

I still have to head over there and drop him my valve covers as I forgot them on the garage floor when I loaded the motor in my truck. Ill get more specifics on them....what pistons would you guys recommend for my application?

Ive been poking around and cant find much positive about the Bracket Master cam he has chosen....some thread seem to point towards the erson cam. Im happy not to bother with Lunati as I wasnt happy with the one I stuck in my Grand National.

Like I say i'm willing to do almost anything here...looking for a noticable idle but dont wanna lose too much vacuum etc. What cam would you recommend?

Lastly, I forgot to mention that he wants to upgrade the valvetrain to roller adjustable. Again this chat I had was preliminary and i'm not sure on specifics as they were just cleaning up and checking the block at this point.

Like everyone I do have a budget but I want to take care of the stuff that I should while the engine sits bare. Gotta make all my important decisions here so it gets the right parts and goes together right!

captjim

I have to remind you that there are limited parts available for Oldsmobile engines. I did not do an exhaustive search, but a quick one tuurned up no results for a hypereurectic piston for a 350 Olds engine. Again, with the short stroke and fair sized chasmber, you will need flat tops or close to it to get the Cr to run a decent cam.

The easiest adjustable rocker set-up is the Comp kit, around $250, IIRC. I had it on several engines and it worked fine to 5500 rpm.

bigD

you need to insist on forged flat top pistons and i'd work with cutlassefi on a cam or else use the erson mentioned above... larger valves with no port/bowl work is a waste of time & money imo, could even hurt your port velocity...

sounds to me like this guy is trying to take over your build & that right there would turn me off bigtime!! it's your ride & your money!!

Hot 442

The latest is I'll be going with hyper pistons based on the explanation that there's a tighter piston to wall clearance. He said that the forged tend to side load the piston too much.

I'm no expert in the area......
Also block decked .020 and compression ratio of 9:1.

As for the cam I've switched up to the Erson 232/232. How's that sound?

captjim

What are the specs on that cam? If 232 is the duration @ .050, it is too much for a 9 to 1 355, IMO.

Hot 442

I've been poking around here for the exact specs but I can't find much yet....
Ah forgot to mention....the larger valves will be combined with a lil bowl work.

Anyone help on the cam specs? Can't find much here on on the net.....

cutlassefi

The piston itself has very little to do with the side loading. Either you misunderstood your machinist or he doesn't have a clue.

Piston side loading can come from an offset pin, but they are designed to be quieter.
Side loading is really determined by the rod/stroke ratio, the shorter the rod with the same stroke or a longer stroke with the stock length rod will increase skirt loads, or side loading.

Unless you make a drastic change is those areas, I would not give it a second thought.

Erson doesn't make a cam that specs out at 232/232. I'd do the Erson TQ40, 220/228 on a 110, lift is .504 on both, or I can custom grind you something as well.

Thanks

Hot 442

Yes I'm going with I've repeated what he said way improperly. What uve said above resembles his explanation.

As for the cam ..... Where the heck does a guy find Erson cams? I can't seem to find them anywhere at all. Do they go by a different name or?

I'm certain he gave me 232/232 but I'm double checking on it. I'll be by the shop tomorrow so I'll def be getting more details and educating myself.

More tomorrow.....

cutlassefi

www.pbm-erson.com

No matter who grinds it, a 232/232 cam is too big for your combination.

Jmo.

SBORule

I like the Probe pistons as well.

I'd bore the block .068" over and drop in a set Probe 4.125" SBC 400 pistons that are designed to be mated with a 5.700" rod..

Connect those slugs to SBC 6.200" I beam or H beam rods.

Have your rod journals turned down to a 2.1" rod and widened for sbc rods with a nice radius. Use Clevite 77's H series SBC rod bearings.

Have the mains turned .010" and use Clevite 77's P series Olds Main bearings.

You don't have to worry about 23 degree valve reliefs causing any interference with the valves unless you add valves larger than 2.05" & 1.625" and run a cam with more than .570" lift. I wouldn't recommend milling the heads more than .040" either. Use FelPro Marine Head gaskets #1155.

N Cranks are lighter than 330 cranks and are more than strong enough to handle 500 plus HP. Be sure to get the crank balanced.

I could sit here and tell you how to build a killer motor but I won't because it just a waste of time, I can tell you are going to let your machinist build your motor, which isn't a bad thing since he will probably be the guy assembling your engine from the vibe I'm getting.

Hope you get what you want and pay for.

Fakser

another good piston I don't hear too much about around here but I got for my 355 is Icon's forged aluminum good piston. Anyone else use them?

cutlassefi

I have, great piston.

SBO -most of what you said is correct except lift is not the only thing that determines whether or not you'll have piston to valve clearance problems, lobe sep and duration can and will have an effect as well.

Hot 442

Okay fellas, I slid by today to get a look at the motor etc. the owner was off but I it to see the block quickly.

The guy that was there didn't know where any of my parts were except the Comp Cams studs I saw. He did tell me that there's nothing wrong with my rods and they will resize them. After all I'm on a budget....

I'll be going by tomorrow again when the owner is in to get my cam specs etc and have a look see at what parts have been selected. More tomorrow.

captjim

JMHO, I like the rod clearance at .002 +/- .0002 Mains at .0035 +/- .0005

cutlassefi

Any idea what cam you/he are going with?

Hot 442

Okay spoke to the shop....

Here's what they gave me about the cam. Although I didn't get the product number the specs are 232 @ .050 with a 474/474 lift on a 107 LSA.

No idea how this will work with my combo but I'm happy it got switched up from the Lunati. He suggested a loose 2400 or a tight 3000 converter as the rpm range of it is 1500-6500.

captjim

Way too much duration for a 9 to 1 355, IMHO. Sounds kinda like a w-30 old school cam, low lift lots of duration. That thing will be unresponsive at low rpms.

Hot 442

Here are a few pics I figured I would post. Ive been working on cleaning up the engine bay etc

Hot 442

Heres a few more....

HWYSTR455

Not sure the duration is the issue with that cam, would say more so the LSA of 107. I would opt for an LSA in the 110-112 range.

What kind of gear?

The converter will play a part, if you're going with that type of cam, you would need to runa loose converter. I say back off slightly on the cam and go tight on the converter.

Look at the Crower 56262 and 56263 cams, or would be my suggestion. You could get away with the 56264 if you run some gear and stall, would still be a better choice than the single profile 107 LSA that was suggested.

.

cutlassefi

I haven't seen anyone grinding that cam on a 107 lsa, I wonder if that's not really the intake centerline.

And that Crower 56263 is nearly identical to the Erson TQ40 I listed a dozen posts before, except the Crower is on a 112, the Erson is on a 110. For a small block I'd do the one that's on a 110.

That next cam up, 56264 is strangely close to the next Erson in line, the TQ50, 228/235. Seems Crower agrees with Erson on lobe choices, hmmmm....

But imo both the 56264 and TQ50 would be too big for your combo.