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Ok guys. So today I bled the brakes on the olds. Done this many many times with no issues. Now i must digress a bit to explain that the brake on my olds have always been a tad soft or soggy but i always felt it was not an issue.
Now here is whats happening. First off it took alot to get the brakes to bleed. But fluid does seem to flow pretty free out of the bleeder. Now when i apply the brakes its takes i would say 3/4 travel to feel a positive bite. I did apply brakes and the gas and they held fine also did a little launch and brake and the car instantly nose dived pretty hard. So i do have brakes and the booster is doing its job or so it seems.
Now for the odd part if i pump the brakes they seem weak but the pedal does not get harder if i gas it and hit the brakes they feel fine and i might get two pump and the soft feeling it back.
It just does not make sense. If it was a vaccum issue they would get hard but it seems like the more vacuum to more i get out of them pressure wise.
The hoses are newer but i know they could be culprits to spongy soft brakes.
The master cylinder is a parts store affair unit thats been in there 8 years or so.
no leaks at the wheel cylinders ( 4 wheel drums )
The drums are adjusted pretty good. Not too tight not too loose certainly not loose enough to cause that amount of travel which i associate with a blown wheel cylinder.
is there is something im missing here. There seems to be no loss of fluid although it has not been dirven or moved enough to really verify that.
How are you bleeding the brakes. The reason I ask is that you'd be surprised at how many do it improperly and allow more air into the lines. When you say not too loose or tight, too loose can be the issue, it does not take much of a gap between the brake shoe and the drums to give a very low pedal. Try and adjust them so that they barely contact the drum and see if that helps.
If your booster is leaking you will get an odd pedal depending on where the leak is inside the booster.
If your brake pedal actuator rod is in the top hole vs the correct bottom hole will give you odd brake feeling.
Lastly if you have less than 13" of vacuum you won't have good power brakes.
I have had power brakes for years no issues so there i sufficient vaccum as no change in cams or any vacuum altering part has been changed and i would assume if the cam was too big i would end up with a hard pedal vs soft and spongy . As far as the top hole etc etc none of that has been altered. By not too loose i mean i get a audible drag from the drums so there is a light initial contact there.
As far as how im bleeding the brakes furthes line away from the master first finishin on the closest one. Typical two man job pump the brakes crack the bleeder repeat until fluid comes out clear without bubbles.
I may add my brake system has not been altered at all. I installed a line lock that failed after hitting the switch twice so i went back to no line lock " stock " and bled the brakes.
I have never had this hard of a time bleeding the brakes even when i replaced the master 8 years ago.
I just got done renewing completely the front and rear brakes on my '78 Toronado. I bled them myself using a home-made bleeding "kit" consisting of a plastic tube that connects to the bleeder valve at one end and is immersed in brake fluid in a clear plastic soda bottle at the other end. It worked very well. Depress the brake pedal slowly several times, which pushes the air out and allows fluid to be sucked back in. After finishing all four wheels, the pedal is firm, and the car stops straight and fast.
The method I used to bleed the brakes is described here:
Ok guys. So today I bled the brakes on the olds. Done this many many times with no issues. Now i must digress a bit to explain that the brake on my olds have always been a tad soft or soggy but i always felt it was not an issue.
Basic question: WHY did you decided to bleed the brakes today? If they're always a bit spongy, and nothing had changed, why did you decide to bleed them?
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
First off it took alot to get the brakes to bleed.
Took a lot of what? Brake fluid? Depresses of the pedal? And what do you mean "get the brakes to bleed?" Brakes "bleed" the moment you loosen the bleed valve and depress the pedal the first time. The idea is to bleed them until no more air comes out. Is that what you mean? That it took a number of presses of the pedal before air appeared in the line? Or before air STOPPED appearing in the line?
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
Now when i apply the brakes its takes i would say 3/4 travel to feel a positive bite.
Too far. I think about 1/4 travel should be all that's needed. Your brakes need adjustment and/or you have air in the line.
Another basic question. If you bleed the brakes until all the air is out, drive the car for a while, and then bleed them again, does more air come out?
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
If it was a vaccum issue they would get hard but it seems like the more vacuum to more i get out of them pressure wise.
I don't know what you're trying to say as I don't understand that latter part of this sentence.
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
The hoses are newer but i know they could be culprits to spongy soft brakes.
I think this is irrelevant. If the hoses leak, they need to be replaced. If they don't leak, they're fine, and I don't see how they could cause a soft pedal if they don't leak.
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
The master cylinder is a parts store affair unit thats been in there 8 years or so.
"Parts store" affair? What other kind of auto part is there if it doesn't come from an auto parts store? You may buy it online, but an auto part is an auto part no matter where you buy it.
Originally Posted by coppercutlass
no leaks at the wheel cylinders
There seems to be no loss of fluid although it has not been dirven or moved enough to really verify that.
There are many other places a leak could develop besides the wheel cylinders. I don't understand why you say there "seems" to be no loss of fluid. There either is a loss of fluid or there isn't, and why can't you tell just by looking at the levels in the fluid reservoirs? Fill them properly (to 1/4" below the top, I think), drive the car for a while, and then check the levels to see if they're still at 1/4" below the top. Should be obvious if one or more reservoir is not, and the reservoir that's low, if there is one, tells you which half of the brake system is the culprit.
In thinking about this further, I would do the following in your situation.
1. Verify that no fluid is being lost. Fill the reservoirs as I mentioned, drive the car for a while, and then see if the levels change. I'm going to guess that they're not going to change. If they do, it should be a simple matter to find the leak. I've found difficult-to-spot seepage leaks where the master cylinder attaches to the vacuum booster. The bottom part of the booster is wet with fluid, but it's not enough to drip on the ground.
2. If there are no leaks, it should be a simple matter to bleed the brakes. I hate to be mean and nasty here, but I'm guessing that maybe you haven't properly bled the brakes over the years, even though you say you've done it many times, because a properly bled system should not have a soft pedal, and you've always had one and apparently have accepted it as normal and learned to live with it. If you can't get rid of the soft pedal, it wouldn't hurt to take the car to a shop and have them bleed the brakes (and probably check over your whole brake system while they're at it) and see what they say. There is no shame in having a second pair of eyes on the situation, especially when it comes to something as important to safety as the brake system.
I'm thinking they need to re bled after talking with a good friend of mine. The whole reason I needed to bleed them is because I disconnected the lines to install my new suspension arms . I also added a line lock which was junk so I re installed the stock lines . I'm going to give a few days move it and then see what happens after I re bleed them. Also what I meant by it took alot to bleed them was attempts in effort to get them close. By parts store affair I meant it was a rebuilt unit not a reproduction new one or something like that. Parts store parts can fail and I was putting that variable out there. My next attempt I think will be the gravity feed method. I don't think I bled them wrong. I have bled hundreds of cars as I work in a body shop and we replace broken calipers etc etc on wrecked cars. The pedal was always soft but not that soft. It always had a positive feel and I tend to run my drums a tad loose since it's a street strip car. This time they are much tighter than normal. I think it's just a matter of bleeding them again. This is a first for me not being able to get the positive pedal I'm normal to.
Also well aware of the other places fluids can leak on the brake system. Its not my first rodeo just the first time i couldnt get them where i like em and all i did was remove a few lines and then put them back in.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 24th, 2017 at 10:38 AM.
All I can do is respond to your original posts. I have no way of knowing what you do for a living. You asked for opinions, and I provided some. No insults were intended.
Seemed a little condensing for a pretty simple question at times there.
You mean "condescending"?
We have no idea what you know and don't know if you don't tell us, and in such situations, we start with the basics. It was not a pretty simple question.
Condensing lol. Damn auto correct. Either way in just re checked it now with a cool head relaxed and it seems I just need to re bleed. Doing the gravity bleed and going from there but not for a few more days.
Ok back to this subject. I gravity bled them. went through half a bottle of brake fluid. Then i hit them with the vacuum bleeder and nothing !!! air is till coming in.
Now im starting to think i possibily damaged a brake hose when installing the suspenion components and somehow air is getting in ????
I cleaned the floor yesterday and pumped the brakes and walked away so if i had any leaks i could see them. Which i did not see so that would answer my previous question.
would an internal leak cause my issues ?
Now i did have the lines open a long time im wondering if the seals dried and bit the dust.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. My research is telling me its the master but i dont know if that would prevent me from bleeding the brakes.
At this point throwing money at the situation wouldnt be a bad idea as safety is a priority but then again i havent spent much time properly diagnosing failing brake parts as usually its replace as needed or obvious things.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 25th, 2017 at 07:01 PM.
Air cannot get in the lines, fluid will leak out. Why not just do it the tried and true old fashioned method. Have your pretty helper sit in the drivers seat and pump the brakes until firm and apply a steady light pressure just enough for the pedal to go to the floor when you open a bleeder valve. Have her hold the pedal to the floor until you tighten the bleeder and then she can pump them up again apply steady light pressure and repeat until all the air is out of each wheel. Keep adding brake fluid to the reservoir so it does not run dry and ad more air back into the system. Keep bleeding until there is no air and a firm pedal.
In addition make sure your shoes are adjusted so they lightly scrape the drums when in their rest released position.
Eric your suggestions have been tried lol. I got the shoes adjusted right , No leaks . I had my dad help me on the first round and him and i have been bleeding brakes since i was 5 years old lol ( i used to help him now he helps me ) . So i tried the old way , gravity way and vacuum way.
Im running out of ideas thats why im here. I have bled brake systems many times , replaced master cylinders , wheel cylinders , calipers , lines and never ran into this kind of issue. I did all the lines and installed the master on my cutlass along with all new wheel cylinders and didnt run into this kind of issue. .
Air is getting in some how . When i was using the vacuum bleeder it was like a never ending air bubble shuffle lol. I can pump the crap out of the brakes and not get any fluid leaks yet when i hit it with the vacuum bleeder there is no solid point where there is no visable air in the catch hose.
Thats why im wondering if an internal leak in the master cylinder would let air in. Im leaning towards master as its the only thing that can leak that i cant see.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 25th, 2017 at 07:49 PM.
Copper, my impression when first reading your post a couple of days ago was the master is bad, or your rear shoes are too far away from the drum...like mentioned. Nine years is a good run for a master, wouldn't be surprised it needs replacement.
Since were on the subject of bleeding brakes, I'll share this old tip I discovered in the car mags back in the day. Its simply a piece of steel with a gasket and a milton air fitting threaded into it. Apply 15psi + or - and move some fluid pretty rapidly if you want it too.
I flush my system every two/three years...about a quart through it.
master cylinders are cheap enough. Im going to start there.
Maybe someone already suggested I didn't read the whole thing but you may need to bench bleed the master again if the lines where open long enough to get air back to it. Easy enough before you replace it...
Copper, my impression when first reading your post a couple of days ago was the master is bad, or your rear shoes are too far away from the drum...like mentioned. Nine years is a good run for a master, wouldn't be surprised it needs replacement.
Since were on the subject of bleeding brakes, I'll share this old tip I discovered in the car mags back in the day. Its simply a piece of steel with a gasket and a milton air fitting threaded into it. Apply 15psi + or - and move some fluid pretty rapidly if you want it too.
I flush my system every two/three years...about a quart through it.
I made a bleeder like that for my newer vehicles that have a plastic screw-on master cylinder cap. I couldn't figure out how to do it on the Olds, but now I know. Thanks for posting!
I guess bench bleeding the unit i have now wouldnt hurt. I thought about it but buying a new unit from dorman is only 30 bucks on amazon with free shipping lol.
I will pull it inspect it and give it a bench bleed. but in the past i have had the lines off for extended periods with no issues but then again i could have gotten lucky.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 25th, 2017 at 09:39 PM.
More than enough as they worked well before with no issues. I have never checked but even running big cams the brakes always worked well. A bit soft but I do run my drums a little loose. Not loose enough to be causing my issues imo. I actually have them a little too tight now. When the engine fires up the Booster does its job if I didn't have enough vacuum I'd have the opposite issue. I have had 2 good sources tell me they also think it's the master or air in the master. Again all things being equal my brake system was not altered should be the same as before and they worked well. Obviously I disconnected lines that's about it.
Since were on the subject of bleeding brakes, I'll share this old tip I discovered in the car mags back in the day. Its simply a piece of steel with a gasket and a milton air fitting threaded into it. Apply 15psi + or - and move some fluid pretty rapidly if you want it too.
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I like the idea, but wonder what steps are needed with this system to be sure no air remains in the brake lines/system? Any?
Ok so today i went into the garage. I saw a leak at the back of the master where it bolts to the booster.
Now before you say it the lid leaking ! I did make sure it was not a leak from the lid. The area around the back of the lid was dry and no traces of fluid where found coming from it. I wiped it down put the lid on it and pumped the brakes i will check tomorrow to see if it leaking.
Cant really get to it until friday and its getting a new master cyl. obviously it will be bench bled then bleed all 4 corners while purging the system.
__________________________________________________ ________
I like the idea, but wonder what steps are needed with this system to be sure no air remains in the brake lines/system? Any?
Thanks -
Make sure the master is fully topped off prior to bleeding each wheel so the level never drops low enough for air to get into the system. Yeah, you have to take the cover off and top the fluid off after each wheel but it's still a lot faster than pumping the pedal, plus it can be done by one person.
Sometimes the simplest of things can turn into a real $hit fest. But besides coming on here i did alot of research and learned there actually many ways to bleed the brake system. During my attempts i tried gravity bleeding and the power bleeder. Which i actually like.
I also learned there is a few ways to bleed the master besided bench bleeding although bench bleeding i the most fool proof.
In the many years i have worked on cars i have never had such a hard time. But then again i never had a master go bad while sitting ( which i actually learned happens pretty easily if the master goes dry ) . The last time the master went out it was leaking out the back and it was obvious. This time it took a while before i could see a leak but i think i got it figured out. Atleast i hope so.
Again guys thanks for the ideas., as stressful as it has been its been enjoyable learning more about brake systems and their many points of failure.
OK guys. Finally we got her figured out. Friday night i called my good friend and member 67cutlassfreak. Who is a top notch mechanic. I asked him for a little advice. He gave me his run down on how to install and bleed the system.
So i did all that Re bench bled my master as he said i did it a way he would not trust. After all this. NO results NO changes.
BUT i noticed something while bleeding the brakes. I had my girl friend help me. On the passenger side line when she was holding the pedal air bubbles where going up stream when she was holding the pedal. So there had to be a leak in the line on that side . I was suspicious of the right side hard line from the wheel cylinder to the rubber line. So i bent a wrench for better access and i managed to get a little over a 1/4 turn out of it and viola the bubbles stopped going up stream and i saw nothing but fluid coming out after we re bled the lines.
I learned alot on this experience. I really did question my previous methods of bleeding but found out why they worked and why what worked for me would not work for this deal.
Now here is what im going to do now. After messing with my brakes alot. Im going to do all new lines in the front. Route them in better spots away from the headers and im going to re bench bleed the master as im positive the amount of air i was sucking in through the line might have found its way to the master and i still have a pedal that can pump up but i dont loose it and the car stops much like it used to.
So the end results are i now have a pedal that feels firm. The car stops and the pedal does not change. I know there is a little air trapped in the system but at this point im doing all new lines so atleast i found my issue and can now throw parts at it knowing that the problem was a slightly loose line. I didnt want to throw new parts at it and not learn wtf was going on. The old master cylinder was bad though so i had a few issues going on working against me.
Thanks guys for all the help.
Last edited by coppercutlass; April 30th, 2017 at 04:05 PM.
I changed a few things and the brakes got better but still not happy. I pinched a few rubber hoses and I got a firmer pedal on the pass side but then the pedal went away. But I think I found possibly my issue. I undid the line at the master and and looks like it had a crack. I'm re doing that line. The brakes got better after I replaced the line going to the pass side wheel cyl to the rubber hose. But I still wasn't happy. Re doing the master cyl. To valve line hopefully no more leaks. I think i cracked The flair after the re install. So many little things at play here. Been a fun advanture to say the least.
Last edited by coppercutlass; May 7th, 2017 at 03:54 PM.
I couldn't resist and went back out there tonight. I made a new line and used an adapater to eliminate human error on the flair making end.
So i gravity bled them as i was solo. After a few sessions and seeing no more bubbles i fired up the car and felt a difference.
Im still going to have to have at it with the buddy method of bleeding but i think this might actually be it.
I think a few things worked against me. The master cylinder going bad along with a line at the wheel cylinder that was not properly sealing then the flair i made from the prop valve to the m/c cracked after tightening it so many times and probable over tightening it .
Tommorow my dad is stopping by and we are going to bleed the entire brake system again and i will report.
April 23rd, 2017, 05:37 PM
