steering box replacement.
#83
Hey guys. So i read just about every post about the jeep GC power steering gear box swap but ...a) i cant find the right Lee Manufacturing company. And b) that adapter everyone is talking about for the metric to standard thread mushroom looking thing...what exactly is it called?
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
#84
#89
#90
Which side is high pressure???
Hi, I did the JGC conversion and lost track of which was high pressure and which was low. Here is a picture of the box mounted and I need to know which one is high pressure? #2 is bigger (inboard) at 18mm and the other is smaller at 16 mm. I always assume the smaller hose is high pressure. However on the Chevelle site they say the bigger one is high pressure on the old Chevelles. Please help.
#92
#94
The high perf G-body cars used a 12:1 box that bolts into the A-body cars, but there are a few qualifiers. First, you obviously need the correct pitman arm from your original box. Second, you need to remove the flange on the input shaft and use your original rag joint. Third, the hose fittings are metric o-ring fittings instead of SAE flare fittings. You can buy adapters for these.
The F-body cars also used a quick ratio box, but the internal stops are different and if you use it in an A-body, you'll have different turning radii from right to left.
The F-body cars also used a quick ratio box, but the internal stops are different and if you use it in an A-body, you'll have different turning radii from right to left.
Appreciate you all!
Also, if this message is in a weird random place, blame my phone and this mobile app version of this site. I can't find anywhere to post a NEW message.
Thanks
#95
#97
#99
The upgrade worked great for me. I have a leak coming from the seal on the gearbox now. Not sure how it happened but I plan on doing a front end upgrade soon due to all the leaking. Overall, I recommend this upgrade.
#100
Looking for suggestions.
I want to upgrade my steering box with a more responsive quicker ratio gear. What is the stock steering gear ratio in a '70 Cutlass Supreme? Is it 16/13:1 variable ratio? It is currently about 3-1/4 turns lock-to-lock ("LTL"). I understand that vari-ratio is what causes the sloppy wheel when steering straight ahead (16:1 ratio), and when parking (turning wheels) the ratio drops to a more responsive 13:1. The OE rag joint coupler is 13/16" which can be changed with a new size (3/4") if necessary. Also, the OE steering box is built with 4 ears for a 4-bolt frame attachment, but the Cutlass uses only 3 of the 4 bolt ears on the box.
Should I have my OE box rebuilt to a quicker constant ratio, and if so what ratio, 12.7:1 or 10:1? Or should I purchase a re-built (perhaps Lares) box? (I don't need the newer Delphi 670 design with t-bar internals.) Lares offers several bolt-in choices: #970 3 turns LTL OE casting 12:7:1; #971 3 turns LTL vari-ratio (don't want this due to var-ratio?); #972 10:1 2-1/2 turns LTL 4 bolts; #973 3 turns LTL 12.7:1 3 bolts; #974 2-1/2 turns LTL 10:1 3 bolts. #970 and #973 appear to be the same ratio (12.7:1) except for number of bolts that can be accommodated. Same with #972 (4 bolts) and 974 (3 bolts) both 10:1 (2-1/2 turns LTL). Lares says the #972 & 974 have IROC internals and offer slightly stiffer steering.
Thanks in advance.
I want to upgrade my steering box with a more responsive quicker ratio gear. What is the stock steering gear ratio in a '70 Cutlass Supreme? Is it 16/13:1 variable ratio? It is currently about 3-1/4 turns lock-to-lock ("LTL"). I understand that vari-ratio is what causes the sloppy wheel when steering straight ahead (16:1 ratio), and when parking (turning wheels) the ratio drops to a more responsive 13:1. The OE rag joint coupler is 13/16" which can be changed with a new size (3/4") if necessary. Also, the OE steering box is built with 4 ears for a 4-bolt frame attachment, but the Cutlass uses only 3 of the 4 bolt ears on the box.
Should I have my OE box rebuilt to a quicker constant ratio, and if so what ratio, 12.7:1 or 10:1? Or should I purchase a re-built (perhaps Lares) box? (I don't need the newer Delphi 670 design with t-bar internals.) Lares offers several bolt-in choices: #970 3 turns LTL OE casting 12:7:1; #971 3 turns LTL vari-ratio (don't want this due to var-ratio?); #972 10:1 2-1/2 turns LTL 4 bolts; #973 3 turns LTL 12.7:1 3 bolts; #974 2-1/2 turns LTL 10:1 3 bolts. #970 and #973 appear to be the same ratio (12.7:1) except for number of bolts that can be accommodated. Same with #972 (4 bolts) and 974 (3 bolts) both 10:1 (2-1/2 turns LTL). Lares says the #972 & 974 have IROC internals and offer slightly stiffer steering.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Toms cutlass; February 7th, 2017 at 10:15 AM.
#102
#103
Thank you for your reply, Joe. It may be meaningless, but how can the same GC box have different reported turns lock-to-lock? That's why I sought clarification.
If the GC box is quick ratio at 12:7, what is the ratio on a stock '70 Olds Cutlass?
If one box travels the same radius in 3 turns than another that travels the same radius in 2.5 turns, then wouldn't the latter box be a quicker ratio box?
If the GC box is quick ratio at 12:7, what is the ratio on a stock '70 Olds Cutlass?
If one box travels the same radius in 3 turns than another that travels the same radius in 2.5 turns, then wouldn't the latter box be a quicker ratio box?
#104
If the GC box is quick ratio at 12:7, what is the ratio on a stock '70 Olds Cutlass?
If one box travels the same radius in 3 turns than another that travels the same radius in 2.5 turns, then wouldn't the latter box be a quicker ratio box?
Bottom line is that what matters is the number of turns FOR A SPECIFIC ROTATION ANGLE OF THE PITMAN SHAFT. If the box has 2.5 turns until the steering linkage hits the stops in one installation, but 3 turns due to different linkage in a different installation, that doesn't mean that the ratio in the box has changed. Compound this with the variable ratio boxes and you see why you can't just count the number of turns.
#105
If the steering linkage hits the stops before the internal stops of the box, the number will be different.
But for the same GC box on the same vehicle, there would/should be no difference in number of turns.
About 17.5:1, though that is an average. The Cutlass boxes were variable ratio, with the ratio at the stops being quicker than on-center to make the car feel less twitchy (at the expense of responsiveness). On-center ratio is about 20:1, speeding up to about 16:1 at full lock.
So changing to a 12:7 ratio gear would make a noticeable difference on-center and throughout the full radius of turning?
Correct, but that ASSUMES the turning angle of the wheels is the same. As I pointed out, if something in the steering linkage or box hits a stop at a different angle the measured turns won't equate to the same turning angle. For example, on the A-body cars, the steering arms are designed to hit a stop at the side of the lower control arm. If the steering box has different internal stops that don't allow the pitman shaft to rotate as much as on the original box (the Trans Am WS6 box swap into the A-body is a classic example of this) then the steering box internal stops limit the steering angle, not the external stops, and the wheels don't turn as much.
Bottom line is that what matters is the number of turns FOR A SPECIFIC ROTATION ANGLE OF THE PITMAN SHAFT. If the box has 2.5 turns until the steering linkage hits the stops in one installation, but 3 turns due to different linkage in a different installation, that doesn't mean that the ratio in the box has changed. Compound this with the variable ratio boxes and you see why you can't just count the number of turns.
But for the same GC box on the same vehicle, there would/should be no difference in number of turns.
About 17.5:1, though that is an average. The Cutlass boxes were variable ratio, with the ratio at the stops being quicker than on-center to make the car feel less twitchy (at the expense of responsiveness). On-center ratio is about 20:1, speeding up to about 16:1 at full lock.
So changing to a 12:7 ratio gear would make a noticeable difference on-center and throughout the full radius of turning?
Correct, but that ASSUMES the turning angle of the wheels is the same. As I pointed out, if something in the steering linkage or box hits a stop at a different angle the measured turns won't equate to the same turning angle. For example, on the A-body cars, the steering arms are designed to hit a stop at the side of the lower control arm. If the steering box has different internal stops that don't allow the pitman shaft to rotate as much as on the original box (the Trans Am WS6 box swap into the A-body is a classic example of this) then the steering box internal stops limit the steering angle, not the external stops, and the wheels don't turn as much.
Bottom line is that what matters is the number of turns FOR A SPECIFIC ROTATION ANGLE OF THE PITMAN SHAFT. If the box has 2.5 turns until the steering linkage hits the stops in one installation, but 3 turns due to different linkage in a different installation, that doesn't mean that the ratio in the box has changed. Compound this with the variable ratio boxes and you see why you can't just count the number of turns.
Last edited by Toms cutlass; February 7th, 2017 at 02:39 PM.
#107
As for the conflicting information, welcome to the web.
#108
Thanks Joe. One last question ... since the GC gear is virtually identical to the stock gear (fittings and rag joint different), would a 12.7:1 ratio in the stock box have the same feel as the GC box? Reason I ask: I can get a fully rebuilt 12.7:1 ratio OE box for about the same cost as a used GC box and the required adapters and different (smaller size) rag joint.
#109
The steering boxes are internally identical, and will feel the same, so long as their torsion bars, which actuate the power assist when torque at the steering wheel reaches a certain level, are the same.
- Eric
- Eric
#110
Thanks Joe. One last question ... since the GC gear is virtually identical to the stock gear (fittings and rag joint different), would a 12.7:1 ratio in the stock box have the same feel as the GC box? Reason I ask: I can get a fully rebuilt 12.7:1 ratio OE box for about the same cost as a used GC box and the required adapters and different (smaller size) rag joint.
#115
Thanks for all of the replies.
Here's a link to another thread related to the JGC and Lares 1353 gear: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-w-pics-4.html
Here's a link to another thread related to the JGC and Lares 1353 gear: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-w-pics-4.html
Last edited by Toms cutlass; February 8th, 2017 at 07:57 AM.
#116
FYI - I just spoke with a Lares tech who said the Lares 1353 (i.e. the JGC gear) is not a 12.7:1 ratio! Clearly, there is plenty of reliable information which contradicts that statement. He recommended the #972 or #974 "fast ratio" 10:1 gears. I'm not going to use a 10:1 ratio to replace a 16-13:1 vari-ratio gear. Even the newer (and more expensive) Delphi 670 gear is 12.7:1 and the Borgeson and AGR gears (at Summit) are 12.7:1 and 12:1.
Last edited by Toms cutlass; February 8th, 2017 at 08:16 AM.
#117
Considering the longevity of false information on the internet, I'd be cautious.
The only information I trust 100% is information I've obtained myself, or observed being measured.
It is impossible to get even a rough sense of steering box ratios using "casual" tools, like a straightedge and protractor, but if anyone is motivated, it could be done with a bench vise and two cam degree wheels.
- Eric
#118
Reliable? Which information?
Considering the longevity of false information on the internet, I'd be cautious.
The only information I trust 100% is information I've obtained myself, or observed being measured.
It is impossible to get even a rough sense of steering box ratios using "casual" tools, like a straightedge and protractor, but if anyone is motivated, it could be done with a bench vise and two cam degree wheels.
- Eric
Considering the longevity of false information on the internet, I'd be cautious.
The only information I trust 100% is information I've obtained myself, or observed being measured.
It is impossible to get even a rough sense of steering box ratios using "casual" tools, like a straightedge and protractor, but if anyone is motivated, it could be done with a bench vise and two cam degree wheels.
- Eric
1.) Attached chart reflects JGC gear as 12.7:1 ratio.
2.) Hot Rod July 2014 p.112 article confirms JGC is a 12.7:1 gear > http://www.hotrod.com/articles/jeep-...ring-box-swap/
3.) Countless posters on this forum and other GM forums confirm the JGC is a 12.7:1 ratio gear.
4.) Joe P. said it is - see posts #102 & 107.
The real question: Is Lares rebuilding the JGC #1353 gear not to OE spec with the 12.7 ratio gear?
Last edited by Toms cutlass; February 8th, 2017 at 11:24 AM.
#119
Yes, but what are you being cautious to guard against?
Playing devil's advocate here:
1.) You include a chart, but you do not note anything about its source.
In fact, this chart was prepared by Jim Shea, who, if I recall, is a former Saginaw engineer, and who has written extensively on Saginaw power steering gears for the Corvette crowd. Jim Shea should be a reliable source.
2.) Hot Rod magazine? Really? Members on this site regularly find glaring errors in Hot Rod articles.
3.) "Countless posters" will also tell you that the moon landings were faked, that vaccines cause autism, and that Bigfoot was seen in their back yards.
It is very likely that the JGC box is, in fact 12.7:1, but there are so many ratios and lock-to-lock numbers batted around for so many different (or the same) steering boxes at this point, and so much contradictory information, such as from different phone reps from different rebuilders, that I would be suspicious of everything.
I can tell you that a JGC box will provide quicker steering with a better feel, much closer to a "modern" car than an "old" car,and much easier for most of us to drive, with no unpleasant effort when parking, because I have done the swap, but I cannot tell you what the exact ratio or steering effort is, because I have not measured them myself.
My advice would be not to fixate on the numbers, consider how tight you like your steering to feel, and get the box that seems to be right - you will probably be happy with it no matter what.
- Eric
1.) Attached chart reflects JGC gear as 12.7:1 ratio.
2.) Hot Rod July 2014 p.112 article confirms JGC is a 12.7:1 gear.
3.) Countless posters on this forum and other GM forums confirm the JGC is a 12.7:1 ratio gear.
The real question (being cautious): Is Lares rebuilding the JGC #1353 gear not to OE spec with the 12.7 ratio gear?
2.) Hot Rod July 2014 p.112 article confirms JGC is a 12.7:1 gear.
3.) Countless posters on this forum and other GM forums confirm the JGC is a 12.7:1 ratio gear.
The real question (being cautious): Is Lares rebuilding the JGC #1353 gear not to OE spec with the 12.7 ratio gear?
1.) You include a chart, but you do not note anything about its source.
In fact, this chart was prepared by Jim Shea, who, if I recall, is a former Saginaw engineer, and who has written extensively on Saginaw power steering gears for the Corvette crowd. Jim Shea should be a reliable source.
2.) Hot Rod magazine? Really? Members on this site regularly find glaring errors in Hot Rod articles.
3.) "Countless posters" will also tell you that the moon landings were faked, that vaccines cause autism, and that Bigfoot was seen in their back yards.
It is very likely that the JGC box is, in fact 12.7:1, but there are so many ratios and lock-to-lock numbers batted around for so many different (or the same) steering boxes at this point, and so much contradictory information, such as from different phone reps from different rebuilders, that I would be suspicious of everything.
I can tell you that a JGC box will provide quicker steering with a better feel, much closer to a "modern" car than an "old" car,and much easier for most of us to drive, with no unpleasant effort when parking, because I have done the swap, but I cannot tell you what the exact ratio or steering effort is, because I have not measured them myself.
My advice would be not to fixate on the numbers, consider how tight you like your steering to feel, and get the box that seems to be right - you will probably be happy with it no matter what.
- Eric
#120
I started out by focusing on turns lock-to-lock. Joe P. advised turns is meaningless; instead focus on gear ratio. I focused on gear ratios but you say they're not reliable, "get the box that feels right." This method is the trial-and-error buyer's remorse method which doesn't work for me.