Found a 70 cutlass convertible on ebay. Owner says it's originally a 4 speed but does not know of a way to verify that. It comes with a 455, a 4 speed auto trans, new seats, ball joints, exhaust etc. He says it comes with stuff to put back to manual. SO. The question is how to verify if it was originally a four speed. Auction ends Wed.

 

A factory manual trans car from 1970 would have had the welded on hump for the shifter boot. Either this part is still in place or there should be obvious signs where it was removed. Also, the stock hole in the floor will look like it was crudely cut with a torch.



Also, while not proof since they are bolt-on parts, look to see if the pivot ball is still in the engine and the bracket for the other end of the Z-bar is still bolted to the frame above the brake distribution block. It's unlikely that someone would take the time to add those to an AT car to fake it formerly being an MT car. Same for the firewall plate at the base of the steering column. Does it have the cutout for the clutch rod?

 

The owner said he removed the spot welds and kept the hump. The console brackets are still on it too. He has the original motor too.

 

the VIN on the motor would match the car..if its the original...trans too

 

Correct. If the seller does have the original 4spd trans and if it has a matching VIN derivative, that's all the proof you need. If the original engine does have a crank drilled for a pilot bearing, that's pretty good proof, but not absolute.

 

You can also start from here ( https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post893998 ) and read down a few posts. Some of that should be the same on the car in question.

 

You need to inspect it and make that decision for your self. Documentation.... you need the block, trans, and vin to make sense. A build sheet and bill of sale, window sticker will further the pedigree plight. Then casting dates, date codes etc need to make sense...If none of that can be proven its just another vert Cutlass. Nice, but will never be able to prove lineage as a 455/4 speed special order non-442 vert. In 72 the engine is in the vin.

You can look at the evidence given and make the assumption for your self. Keep in mind without the above numbers aligning everything else can be added/subtracted if the wrench is talented and knows what is correct.

Some other clues to look for:
Look at various sub-wire harasses such as the console to main wire harness (if equipped). Does it look cobbled or factory? The carb and distributor are 455/4 speed specific. But both can be bolted on. Look at the wiring for the trans kick down does it look cobbled? Is the kick down switch even there above the gas pedal? If it has a console in it now look at that wiring and its mounting brackets. The Factory spot welded in the floor brackets. They are the same design for 4 speed vs auto for 70-72. Look for signs of console being painted to match the interior.

Look at the steering column. Is there a hole there for a column shift lever? As mentioned the clutch pedal rod hole should be there and look factory along with the z bar parts mentioned.

Bottom line is you're probably not going to be able to look at it with this level of detail on line. So you should only pay 70 Cutlass convertible prices and nothing more unless the owner can produce the above mentioned docs.


Some Joe(or others in the know) questions for all of us:

1. For 68-72 is the THM400 auto trans kick down circuit there just tied back into the main harness in a THM350 or 4 speed? I realize each year had a standard main harness which differed slightly within these years.

2. In 68-72, just FE2 442, 4 speeds received the additional traction bars. True? (442 mandated FE2)

3. Did any other 4 speed combo, 68-72, in a non-442 (350, 455, 2 or 4 barrel) get the trac bars or FE2 as mandatory? Answer is, optional only.

4. The 442 made FE2 mandatory in 68-72. But only the 4 speed 442s got the upper traction brackets. Is this true throughout 68-72 run? Sketchy on 72s.

 

Question 1. The connector for the TH400, if not used was just taped back up out of the way. I have a picture of this somewhere in my photobucket folders.

 

I bid 10000.00 but don't plan on going higher. Owner is not sure if trans is original # match to car. He has more parts and motor he took out to put in a performance shop built, dyno'd 455. Higher the bidding gets more extra parts are included is how he put it. Can't speak for him or list parts. Sounds like it's not perfect but has lots of money in it. Says not rusty but some bondo. It's in Michigan so I can't look close. Anyone who thinks it may be worth more is welcome to contact him or bid before Wednesday. I've made up my mind even if it's worth more,$10000.00 is my max number. Says rear is 12 bolt open and front rear sway bars

 

Don't take offense to this Gary. If you can't go look at the car yourself, don't buy it. I have had many a bad experience thinking the car was as told by the guy on the phone. It gets to my shop and it's close but it needs around 5k more worth of work. Fly out there and see it. It will cost you two days off work plus the plane ticket. I bet you don't buy it when you see it for yourself.
Joe, that piece of plastic you have in your post is the one I used on my car the last time I replaced the carpet. I molded it to fit with a butane torch. Then glued it and screwed it to the floor. Solid and looking sharp. I'll post a pic of it if I remember.

Yeah, found it.

 

The last one I bought I flew to Texas to look at and STILL ended up rebuilding the fresh motor because they Fumbled the build. Then found out the paint was flawed. Still loved the car. This one could be a repeat but after talking to the owner I get the feeling he's legit. He got it for his wife, she did not like the stick. Like I said, I capped my price at 10000.00 and he is including the four speed parts. He said if the bidding goes higher the winner will need an extra truck for the parts ( like the motor he took out, fenders, wheels)
but I will not be bidding higher for that. He did not specify what other parts would be included anyway. He did say the hump was metal.

 

It's one thing for him to suggest it's a 4-speed, but if he thinks it's a 455 4-speed, then we know he's out to lunch.

 

It was a 350 4 speed. He switched to 455 for more power. When he said it was originally a 4 speed maybe he just meant when HE got it. Don't know him personally so I only know what I took from the conversation I had with him on the phone. Kind of why I started this thread to figure out if it really was a 4 speed from the factory. I've been outbid on it so I'm letting it go just to be safe.

 

That's what I was thinking. Easiest way.

 

....except if it's been restamped.

 

350 4 speed Cutlass vert makes more sense than a 455 4 speed, why not simply order the 442 at that point. Though stranger combos do exist. Yes, if the 350s vin derivative matches and the 350 is a 4 speed engine indicated by the crank, carb dist, etc... thats some positive clues, not conclusive of course. Low production car for sure. How low???