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Last November I converted my '69 Cutlass to front disc brakes and rebuilt the front end with new bushings, springs, ball joints, etc. I had an issue with the fitment of the stainless brake lines in the kit but I was able to modify them to fit. I drove the car when the weather permitted over the winter (400 miles or so) and did an oil change on her in mid Feb. I put the car up on ramps and, as is my standard practice, shook her a bit prior to crawling under the car. I hear/felt a clunk in the RF wheel that warranted further investigation.
What was found was shockingly bad. The outer wheel bearing was quickly turning itself into metallic paste and the inner wheel bearing wasn't far behind:
Metallic Paste
Outer bearing race
Inner wheel bearing
Pulled the LF wheel and found a similar condition. It wasn't as bad as the RF wheel but was heading in the same direction. Further investigation found that the supplied rotors weren't machined properly. The bore for the outer race (cup) was machined off center. Once noticed it is easy to see with a visual inspection:
Off center inner race
I wanted to determine how far off it was and, while feeler gauges aren't the most accurate method due to core shift, it gave me a general idea of how far the rotors were off. At the smallest point the outer race was 0.006" proud of the casting, the largest gap (180 degrees out) was 0.105".
The fix was to replace the rotors with a set from the parts store and use new USA made bearings. Total parts cost was about $160 but this could have ended quite badly. I'm fortunate I noticed it when I put her on ramps for an oil change.
I called The Right Stuff and told them what happened. After sending them the pictures Ed agreed there was an issue but lamented that I hadn't contacted them first. He noted they were liable for parts only and said replacement rotors would have cost them significantly less than I paid, due to their bulk purchasing from China. I asked if there were any other contributing factors, specifically the possibility that the inner and outer bearings (cones and cups) were mismatched. He said no. After subsequent discussion they offered me $60 for my troubles.
I wanted to verify Ed's comment on the outer races so I beat them out of the problem rotors. They were NOT USA made Timken cups, though the supplied inner cones were USA made Timkens. Of course the only way to see the manufacturer and country of origin is to remove the races, as that portion of the race isn't visible with the race installed.
At this point I was ticked. I called Ed and also spoke with Scott, the quality manager. They promised to investigate and get back to me. Bear, Ed's manager and the purchasing manager, called me back and said that he knew the outer races were Chinese. I asked him why the advertising touts USA made bearings and he said the inner cones were, in fact, USA made. I conceded this point but pointed out that tapered roller bearings are a system, consisting of a cup and cone. He said it didn't matter. I pointed out that Timken does not condone or warranty mixing and matching their bearing components with those of other manufacturers (I had called them to verify this point). Bear offered me $80 as a partial refund and it was The Right Stuff's final offer. I took the partial refund as it was a take it or leave it offer.
I wanted to post my experience so others would know what to look for when they unpack a conversion kit. Assuming the operator made a bad offset when machining the bearing bore in China there should be 48-58 more of these rotors waiting to be found. The insert would last no more than about 60 pcs in gray cast. I discussed this with The Right Stuff and they seemed unconcerned
Last edited by 65Delta; March 18th, 2016 at 04:43 PM.
No, there was no vibration or odd handling. The clunk when pushing the car side to side was my first warning. I was fortunate I caught it early as the spindles weren't chewed up.
I never heard of mismatching the cups and cones of tapered bearings. I wonder if the ones marked Timken are actually Timken. Every type of tapered bearings I bought through the years came as a set from the maker.
As much as I'd like to join in on this Chinese bashing thread I have to say you get what you pay for.
I bought fuel and brake lines from them and although they are not perfect I knew what I was getting into.
Nowadays you have to be a 'car crafter'. Expecting everything to fall into place is a pipe dream. I now expect the worst and go from there. Practically everything I've bought over the past ten years has needed some kind of tweaking. I can understand you want quality parts to fit and have no worries but is not today's world. I've become pragmatic in my journey through 'car crafting'.
Hate to be a downer but that is life lately, at least for me.
70-442-W30: I asked Bear this exact question and he declined to answer. I suggested he could save a bit more coin by using either inner or outer Chinese cones and keeping 2 USA Timken cones in the kit. That way they could still say they had USA bearing parts in the kit. FWIW the Timkens are $20 on Rock Auto for all 4 sets of cups/cones.
m371961: Timken said the exact same thing when I called them.
TripDeuces: Note that I didn't post anything in November about having to substantially rework both the rear and RF stainless lines in order to make them fit. I took care of it and didn't complain. Though I would like the parts to perform perfectly without issue the world of offshore parts says this seldom happens. I don't, however, think it's unreasonable to expect more than 500 miles of service from a set of front wheel bearings.
For me it boils down to 2 main concerns:
1. How badly this could have ended. If everyone who bought a kit from them does nothing more than check their wheel bearings I'll be happy.
2. The Right Stuff Detailing's cavalier attitude towards the whole thing. True the mismatched bearings might take a while to appear but I know the improperly machined rotors cause a major problem in short order. You'd think a life safety concern would merit a reaction
Last edited by 65Delta; March 18th, 2016 at 09:42 PM.
Did Timken show any interest in the bearings being counterfeit? They may want to see them, or maybe it just isn't worth their time. Counterfeit parts are a serious problem. I don't know if the bore offset is enough of a problem. I have seen that before as the part is cast then machined. But I could be wrong.
Not to be smart, but you did adjust the bearings correctly during install, right?
This is one of the reasons why I don't use the complete kits. I get the mini kit with just the spindles, caliper brackets, and splash shields. Everything else (rotors, calipers, bearings, hoses) I just get locally. Unfortunately, not even NAPA parts guarantees that they are US made, as I found out on the drums I got for my truck. The extra price for their premium brand just pays for the longer warranty on the identical Chinesium parts...
I don't think the bearings are counterfeit. I think the USA made Timken cones are what they say and I think the AAM China cups are as well. The disconnect is that the bearing system as a whole is a mixed bag. Timken uses a proprietary grind on their rollers that gives them a barrel shape. When compared side by side the AAM cups feel scratchy, like the ID was ground with a wheel that needed to be dressed. The Timken cups feel slick, like they were hard turned.
I cleaned and repacked the front wheel bearings when the car had drums and they looked fine when I tore the front end down 3K miles later. The drum and disc setups use the same P/N wheel bearings. I've done a lot of tapered roller bearings (mostly on 2WD trucks) and this is the first problem I've ever had. They were greased/installed properly. Bear actually tried to chase that one after I pinned him down on the AAM China bearing cups.
My thought is that this mislocated inner bearing/outer race forced the outer bearing to ride cocked in it's bearing cup. Couple this with a mismatched cup and cone assembly and you have a problem on your hands.
Joe: Unfortunate but true. NAPA's parts are now not much different than the competition, except for the price...
I am seeing a mishmash mixture of USA bearings if you believe the etching and China races. Poor practice if you ask me. It could work out, IF all the parts were properly made. And compatible.
It always annoyed me that the outer race is considered not part of the bearing... there is the "bearing" = inner race, rollers, and cage... and then the "race" = the outer race. Why not just call the whole thing the "bearing assembly"? So, while that alone- presumably poor material or finish on the outer race- could lead to a failure like this...
What leads you to believe the holes are machined incorrectly? I am not seeing that. I see an outer race with variation to the as-cast inner surface of the rotor casting, but that is inconsequential. Are the two bearing holes for the outer races for sure not concentric and/or parallel? Now, THAT would be a problem.
A bearing hole off center to the raw casting surface is not really a problem.
Last edited by Octania; March 19th, 2016 at 04:06 PM.
I did not think it was possible to purchase a cup without the cone and vice versa. So the Timkin bearing and the race would be separate purchased,or Timkin allows the China Co. to sell this as a set, or the Timken is counterfeit. JMHO.
I have gone to buy bearings and the counterman ask if I want the new "race" also.
???
Not sure why one would buy half of the bearing assembly. In my limited experience, if you are losing pieces off the rollers for example then those pieces are grinding away the mating races as well, and it's time for new everything.
After examining it I believe the bore for the outer race of the inner bearing is not concentric to the bore for the outer race of the outer bearing. It's hard to conclusively prove this without putting it on the CMM but max core shift I've seen in gray cast is 0.035" or so. The inner bore on these rotors looks like it's way off. I offered to send it back for examination if they sent a pre-paid shipping label but The Right Stuff declined.
I had an in-depth conversation with Scott regarding the QC plan on the rotors. They're purchased complete from a 3rd party overseas and the sealed boxes are packaged in the kit. The inspection frequency is 1 in 100, visual inspection only. IMO that's not a good QC plan as the supplier can get away with murder. As far as I know none are ever put on a CMM.
I asked Bear why the supplier didn't use USA outer races as I was originally told. I was told it was too expensive to ship USA parts to China for installation. I then asked why they didn't buy the rotors less races and press them in here. Same answer...too expensive. I finally asked why they didn't supply the rotors less installed races and provide the matched Timken set in the kit. Yes, too expensive again but he also said the average guy didn't want to go through the trouble of installing the outer races himself. I told him I didn't agree with that. We're working on 68-72 A bodies, not a '97 Cavalier.
Based on my conversation with Timken I don't think they know/asked what The Right Stuff was doing with the bearings. They ordered a LM11949 and Timken sold it to them. It was $x.xx cheaper than ordering set #?? (LM11949 and LM11910) so The Right Stuff pocketed a little extra on each kit.
"...too expensive... the average guy doesn't want to go through the trouble of installing the outer races himself..."
Whereas, instead, we traded that expense and trouble for the expense and trouble of constantly replacing the bearings and/or rotors.... plus whatever else gets damaged due to that failure. False Economy.
I would be glad to get bare castings and put in my own bearings. Er, Races.
I am wondering if the Chinese are failing to drive the race in all the way to the seated position, then when you install and drive, the bearings get loose because the races work over to the seated positon.
Measuring the lip in the casting with feeler gauges is not a sign the bore is off center. If there was not vibration, I'm going to assume they are centered. If you chuck them up on a lathe and measure the run out, that would tell the story. I have a set of Timpken chinesium bearings on my car that have been there since 2008 with no issues.
I like Eric's idea, a local machine shop with a lathe could tell you in a few minutes if they were machined out.
I've only heard a hum coming from a bad wheel bearing in my cutlass, a clunk could be more a ball joint, shock, stabilizer or spring issue when pushing on the car.
I agree that the "average guy" should at least be given the option. I didn't thoroughly check the rotors (who would as they were new & ready to install?) so I don't know where the bearings were/are but I will never make that mistake again.
If the inner bore was out of position, the outer bearing cone may have compensated for the misalignment by riding slightly cocked in the cup. That and the mismatched USA/Chinese bearing components would explain the accelerated wear on the outer bearing.
The clunk was the RF wheel moving on the spindle. The front end is tight. The bearing had lost preload.
Look at how loaded the grease is with metallic fines. It was all the evidence of accelerated wear I needed. The RF wheel was loaded and lost preload, resulting in a clunk at that wheel. The LF was still tight but filling up with metal. It wouldn't have been long before it lost preload too.
Can you post some pictures of the bearings? Are they worn or pitted. There is no groove worn in the races, so the wear must be in the bearings. Just saying.
Here are the inner bearing cones. Nothing stands out to me. I used a paper towel to clean the grease off for the pics so you might see some towel lint.
I don't either, they don't look worn at all. Even the grease looks clean. The only thing I can think of is when you set your preload you didn't spin the wheel and reset it to seat the bearing, the grease pack was acting like part of your preload. Then when everything got moving and the bearings settled in, you lost it.
I set the bearing preload while rotating the wheel, the same as I always do. After installing the cotter pin I always go back, spin the wheel again to make sure everything feels ok, then grab the rotor at the vanes & try to wiggle it. There were no red flags at installation.
Yep, I washed the inside of both rotor bores with brake cleaner to make sure there was no metal, sand, etc. It was clean.
Remember how I described the Chinese cups (outers) as feeling scratchy? I think the USA steel on the cones was starting to eat at the mismatched cup. You can see why I did a deep dive into the problem though.
As an aside I have 340 miles on the replacement rotors and USA matched Timken cups/cones and everything is nice and tight. I've started grabbing the LF and RF wheels before or after a drive to see if I can get a clunk. Maybe it's being paranoid at this point but it isn't hurting anything.
Nice epilogue to this story happened this PM when I ran into town to pick up dinner. I was heading back home and came to a stop light when the brake pedal took a nose dive on me. I got her stopped (fortunately) and cautiously limped her home to discover fluid leaking from the LF wheel. Sure enough the brake hose in the supplied kit from The Right Stuff Detailing failed on me after 6 months and about 900 miles. I swear these people are trying to kill me!! The hoses weren't stretched or twisted in any way. The calipers are always supported when off the car so they aren't hanging by the hose.
I'm so ticked I have to work on the front brakes again. Guess I'll have to call those idiots tomorrow. This is ridiculous.
I had a chance to investigate further and found the culprit. The supplied Chinese brake calipers were poorly machined where the copper crush washer seals the hose to caliper. They compensated by painting the area with a thick coat of gray cast colored paint. The paint was hard to see (who paints the sealing surface?) but the brake fluid ate at it until it softened and the underlying area was unable to seal. Will post pics when I have a chance
I had an issue similar on my truck, the caliper / hose mating surface had a gouge that did not allow the copper washer to seal and like yours it leaked, mine was a remanned caliper so I just returned it for another
I picked up a set of reman calipers this PM and they look a lot better. What was dangerous about this is the heavy paint used to disguise the problem. It bled fine and drove ok for a few months. Had it failed while on jack stands I'd have been annoyed but this was scary.
Here are the pics as promised. You can see a few scrape marks where I peeled the excess paint of with a screwdriver:
It is getting so hard to find good USA made parts. Or for that matter good metal. And don't get me started on quality bolts.
I think Joe P. Is right. Get the basics from the general suppliers and the rest get quality locally as possible made parts or rebuild factory originals. calipers are very easy to rebuild.
Having worked in the automotive parts business for a long time I can tell you that having those sealing rings dicked up is very common. Unfortunate but sadly true nonetheless. On new ones it's rare but reman are notorious for it. You would think the reman companies would do this as a common thing because of the known problems but no.
If you can find new go for if not hope you have dead soft copper washers to fill the void.
I'm completely on board with Joe P. I'll NEVER buy a complete kit again. Spindles & caliper brackets would be about it. I'm nervous to see if I'll find any hidden surprises in the supplied booster & master cylinder.
The calipers pictures are brand new Chinesium parts, not reman. The exceedingly poor finish at the sealing surface was done at their factory. I picked up a set of reman Delco Moraine calipers and there are noticeable differences. Casting thickness and a 90 degree difference in brake hose mounting location are the big ones I've spotted thus far.
March 18th, 2016, 04:17 PM
