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Lots of progress, but it seems slow because I have only been able to dedicate 4 or 5 hours a week to the project with my work responsibilities.... Also, Dad tripped and fell backward while holding the rear bumper and he now has a compression fracture on his spine. This has been really hard on him because he is now in constant pain from his back, more than ever, and he is frustrated that he can't do much work on the car now because of his injury.
Also, we now really need a new rear bumper more than ever, and the front isn't great either......
Here are some pics of the recent progress for the completed fuel system in the trunk and under the car, some of the wiring that is almost finished in the front of the car including the ECU and CDI box mounting (thank You LORD!).
This picture above shows the two PWM units that control one Facet lift pump and one Bosch 044 each, along with the dedicated fuse and micro relay panel that goes to this system.
This is an older pic from several weeks ago, as I have almost wired everything in now, except for the PWM control wire from the Motec, and the Fuel pump Relay on switch from the Motec ECU as well.
These two images above show the 4 gauge power wire from the alternator to the Power bus bar, the 1/0 ground wire from the back of the alternator to the stud on the frame, all of the electronic system grounds tied together at this same ground stud on the frame as well.
The Motec ECU is what is mounted in the "Faraday cage" system with padding to isolate it from vibration, and the CDI box is mounted on rubber vibration isolation studs through the cage system.
The littlefuse box mounted there is a fuse and relay panel which holds 3 mini ISO 280 relays and the 3 fuses that power to those relays. One relay powers the two electric cooling fans, triggered by the Motec ECU for on and off temps, another relay powers the Motec ECU, and the last relay powers the Motec CDI Box. The ignition key on is the trigger wire to the ECU and CDI box relays.
All wiring is Tefzel ETFE wire, tinned copper with super high temp rating for the insulation and higher amperage rating for the smaller gauge wires because the insulation can take the heat.
This wire is awesome and light, but it definitely takes the correct wires stripping tools to remove the super tough jacket/insulation.
Last edited by Battenrunner; June 27th, 2020 at 09:58 PM.
I asked that and they said it shouldn’t be an issue to mount them very close.
also, they want the coil mounted within 20 inches of the CDI box, so that is why it is close as well.
Hmmmm I’ve never had ANY luck with ANY system when mounting the ign so close to the ECU. Hope you have better luck than I ever have.
And hope your dad gets well soon. I’m still recuperating from back surgery myself. It’s a slow process.
Sorry to hear about your Father. Lots of work right there, looks good, although I have no idea what i'am looking at.............
Thank You VORTECPRO. Yes, it has been hard on us, as well as my mother being basically confined to a bed 24hrs a day, they aren’t doing well at all together.
HAHA, well, it is over complicated in some ways for sure, but hopefully it will make more sense when you see it in person and see what everything does.
The fuel system “should“ be capable of 1700+hp on gas and ~1200hp on E85, if we decide to step up later.
At this time, I can unplug one PWM (pulse width modulator fuel pump controller) that runs one Facet lift pump to suck fuel from the factory gas tank to fill the surge pot (black rectangle tank in trunk) with the two Bosch 044 Motorsport pumps installed. Then only one Bosch 044 would run and that is capable of ~600hp on E85 at max or ~850hp on gasoline alone.
I am running them redundantly with one way check valves on all pumps so if one pump fails or stops, the pressure can’t backflow into any other pump.
I am running PWM’s to quiet the pumps down tremendously, and make them all live longer as well.
I have a fuel pressure sensor tied to the Motec ECU that will give a fuel pressure reading and a warning if it drops too low during a run. Trying to save up for a mini display to show all the info and warnings now.
Hmmmm I’ve never had ANY luck with ANY system when mounting the ign so close to the ECU. Hope you have better luck than I ever have.
And hope your dad gets well soon. I’m still recuperating from back surgery myself. It’s a slow process.
I did run shielded wire for the distributor hall pickups so I hope that will work. I can also shield the coil wires if it comes to that.
I am also thinking I should run ground straps attached to the Motec ECU case mount and the CDI case mount. Perhaps that could also help.
Was that were you were seeing the interference?
sorry to hear your back is also giving you troubles....sucks
Last edited by Battenrunner; June 28th, 2020 at 10:18 AM.
Thanks.
Weird wideband/correction readings and it would frequently bump us off.
ah, so were those the Bosch LSU 4.2 or 4.9’s that you were using?
I wonder if the Sensor output was what was being messed up or if the interference was messing with the controller for the sensor(s).
We are running a pair of the old-style 4 wire Bosch LSM-11 style “wideband” sensors, one for each bank, and they aren’t Nearly as sensitive or quick as the LSU 4.9’s (or 4.2’s), but they are also supposed to be much more rugged and have better longevity with alternate fuels other than unleaded gasoline.
We also have an AEM wideband with the Bosch LSU sensor that we will have running for quick reference to the Motec sensors, so we can check all three against one another. The only thing I could do better is add another LSU sensor to the other bank to fully verify each Motec LSM-11 sensor.
I am looking at further External-grounding shield wrap of the wires to the harness of the ECU as well as the wires to the CDI.
I will keep you all informed and hopefully no interference occurs.
I can move the CDI box if I have to, but it will be a pain to do so....
Last edited by Battenrunner; June 28th, 2020 at 12:56 PM.
O2 sensor doesn’t really have anything to do with it, it’s the controller, connection and sample rate. Today everyone uses the same sensor pretty much.
You’re going to find it hard to tune the transient part with any slower O2. At that point you’ll be glad you have the AEM units. I’d wire those in ASAP.
Last edited by cutlassefi; June 29th, 2020 at 09:37 PM.
Finally got the short video up on youtube in link above. Idle is pretty darn good to me for a brand new tune on a decently big cam running Alpha-N injection (Throttle position and RPM only). I am running a Map sensor as a baro sensor to adjust for air density with altitude changes with it tuned here at 8000+ft Density Altitude. You can see the engine actually runs pretty smooth (doesn't flounder around) for a such a rough idle and it feels smooth with your hand on it too.
I am running 91 octane ethanol-free fuel, so stoich is still 14.7:1 for me, and it seems to regulate close to .97-1.00 Lambda now and it is happy. We are running a 160 degree thermostat, and our cooling fans kick on at 169 degrees and quickly suck the heat out of the engine within just a few seconds.
I didn't show it with me reving it up, but, after I added a minimal amount of acceleration enrichment (pump shot in carb-speak), I can say it is very crisp and snappy!
Last edited by Battenrunner; May 24th, 2021 at 08:39 PM.
Impressed by how smooth it runs. Is there timing control as well?
much appreciate the kind words from all!
Yes, we have a full ignition timing control being performed by the ecu with a timing map I tuned in on it. Starts at 12 degrees initial at 0 and 350 rpm to ease kicking the starter, then ramps up to 30 at 750rpm through 1500rpm, etc.
it is a 3D graphical representation of the timing advance with RPM and throttle position on the X and Y axis
then ramps up to 30 at 750rpm through 1500rpm, etc.
it is a 3D graphical representation of the timing advance with RPM and throttle position on the X and Y axis
That’s why it’s so snappy, 30* will do that for you. But you’’ll need to back that down for lower altitudes.
Does that Motec allow you to do fuel in TPS and spark in MAP? That’s really the best way to do it.
Good luck.
That’s why it’s so snappy, 30* will do that for you. But you’’ll need to back that down for lower altitudes.
Does that Motec allow you to do fuel in TPS and spark in MAP? That’s really the best way to do it.
Good luck.
Thanks Mark,
Yes, but it wasn’t much different with 12 or 15 degrees, still snappy!
Yes, I can setup spark from the Map sensor if I want, but I will see if it wants that here at this elevation and with this cam. Engines don’t pull as much vacuum here at high elevation, so it is a bit trickier to run things off of a map sensor unless you have a small to medium cam.
So far, I have the MoTec M8 running dual lambda/widebands, Idle air control, fuel pump prime and switching on with ignition and PWM controllers, and fans triggered on and off with programmed-in temps and a speed input from the trans to turn the fans off at 35+mph.
It isn’t too tough once you get an idea and a plan.
The plan is to make it a driver, street/strip car, and should be capable of mid 10’s at sea level, without nitrous.
It won’t be an all out show car, but hopefully it will get some rechromed parts and a nice paint job in this next year.
The car is a rust-free 1967 hardtop Cutlass, so it should be a nice looking ride when done.
I like to make things as functional and serviceable as possible and I enjoy making something interesting vs. the same old thing you see everywhere else at a car show.
Last edited by Battenrunner; May 26th, 2021 at 03:38 PM.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
Originally Posted by Battenrunner
Thanks Mark,
Yes, but it wasn’t much different with 12 or 15 degrees, still snappy!
Yes, I can setup spark from the Map sensor if I want, but I will see if it wants that here at this elevation and with this cam. Engines don’t pull as much vacuum here at high elevation, so it is a bit trickier to run things off of a map sensor unless you have a small to medium cam.
So far, I have the MoTec M8 running dual lambda/widebands, Idle air control, fuel pump prime and switching on with ignition and PWM controllers, and fans triggered on and off with programmed-in temps and a speed input from the trans to turn the fans off at 35+mph.
I've never run a dist that wasn't locked, Pretty impressive you could make all that work the first time out!
Great job Ryan! Can't wait to go cruising together! I'm hoping to get my Tremec TKX installed next week so my project will move under it's own power. I'm tired of rolling it around on wheel dollies in the shop. Keep up the good work.
What look are you going for with the color and wheel tire choice?
What style of hood are you going to run?
Not sure on the paint color or if we will do graphics yet.....
It is a tough choice on what to paint it and keep it classy, appealing, and to compliment the body lines.
I have poured over tons of pics and still not sure yet.
I hope we can get the bumpers rechromed, but that is major $$$ now.
We already have some new lightweight Weld prostar aluminum wheels, running 15 x 5 fronts and 7 inch wide tires and 15 x 9 rear wheels with a 275/60R15 Nitto drag radial in the rear.
We installed heavy duty long 7/16 studs in the front rotor hubs and long 1/2 studs in the Mark Williams axles in the rear. We have open lug nuts for both per NHRA rules.
A VFN 4” cowl bolt on hood was chosen to clear the air cleaner.
Great job Ryan! Can't wait to go cruising together! I'm hoping to get my Tremec TKX installed next week so my project will move under it's own power. I'm tired of rolling it around on wheel dollies in the shop. Keep up the good work.
Same to you Sir, You do awesome work!
looking forward to seeing your beauty roll on its own power with that TKX!
Wow - nice work! That's a wild fuel delivery system. Congrats on getting it running, sounds great.
Thank You for the kind words.
I think the fuel system should prove capable of 1200 + HP for lots of headroom for future power upgrades, as well as being reliable and relatively quiet.
It is built this way for redundancy as well so if we are on a road trip we will hopefully not be stranded if a lift pump or pressure pump goes out. I also made everything serviceable and a one way flow valve on every pump to keep pressure / backflow from occurring if any pump fails.
Not sure on the paint color or if we will do graphics yet.....
It is a tough choice on what to paint it and keep it classy, appealing, and to compliment the body lines.
I have poured over tons of pics and still not sure yet.
I hope we can get the bumpers rechromed, but that is major $$$ now.
We already have some new lightweight Weld prostar aluminum wheels, running 15 x 5 fronts and 7 inch wide tires and 15 x 9 rear wheels with a 275/60R15 Nitto drag radial in the rear.
We installed heavy duty long 7/16 studs in the front rotor hubs and long 1/2 studs in the Mark Williams axles in the rear. We have open lug nuts for both per NHRA rules.
A VFN 4” cowl bolt on hood was chosen to clear the air cleaner.
I personally think it's hard to beat factory color combinations and body styling. It's so nice to see the car progressing after all you and your father have been through with this build.
I got a Canton pan this time round. The baffle rattled out of the Moroso, and the Canton looks to better built . It's got trap doors, mild windage control, and a bung for a temp sensor.
Been driving the car for about 350 miles now, putting a road tune on it.
It is running very strong and everything seems good on 91 octane with 10% ethanol, or the non-ethanol at 35 degrees of timing.
I have driven it in 100 degree+ heat and it only got to 200 degrees, and in 80-85 degrees, it will cruise all day at 65-70mph at 3300rpm and 170 degrees.
The 8 inch converter works beautifully and there is no discernible or calculated slip at 3000-3500rpm while driving. You breathe on the gas and it happily surges forward….
Wideband tuning at wide open throttle has been showing .80-.82 lambda, so about 11.8-12.0:1 (very rich). Been sneaking up on the tune starting from rich.
I can say it pulls very hard from 60mph on.
Starting work on the paint and body this week and hope to get it sprayed before the end of July…..
It is a pretty straight, rust-free-nice car, just needs some TLC here and there before laying down paint.
Last edited by Battenrunner; July 14th, 2022 at 06:46 PM.
Dave, I don’t know about passing that Green Monster of yours…. Hopefully just able to keep you a fender ahead!
I appreciate it Bernhard…. It is not a show-piece, but it will hopefully be pretty good and at least interesting once it is done.
Pushing hard through some bad foot problems on my left foot right now to work on this as much as possible.
I will post some pics soon of my work on the VFN fiberglass hood and the rest of the car. Needless to say, someone was lacking skill who laid-up that fiberglass… and I have a bunch of work ahead of me/us to make it look decent, much less “nice”. It is quite flimsy and flexible in the scoop, and there are huge dips and low areas all over. I know it is “glass”, but I was underwhelmed after knowing how good most of the Harwood hoods were when I helped sell them 20 years ago. I may have to add fiberglass structural reinforcement in several areas….
Dad is able to help only some, but he gets quickly exhausted and has to rest frequently.
I have my 9-year old son helping with some of the sanding work so he stays involved and invested in the car.
Last edited by Battenrunner; July 17th, 2022 at 10:12 PM.
Dave, I don’t know about passing that Green Monster of yours…. Hopefully just able to keep you a fender ahead!
I appreciate it Bernhard…. It is not a show-piece, but it will hopefully be pretty good and at least interesting once it is done.
Pushing hard through some bad foot problems on my left foot right now to work on this as much as possible.
I will post some pics soon of my work on the VFN fiberglass hood and the rest of the car. Needless to say, someone was lacking skill who laid-up that fiberglass… and I have a bunch of work ahead of me/us to make it look decent, much less “nice”. It is quite flimsy and flexible in the scoop, and there are huge dips and low areas all over. I know it is “glass”, but I was underwhelmed after knowing how good most of the Harwood hoods were when I helped sell them 20 years ago. I may have to add fiberglass structural reinforcement in several areas….
Dad is able to help only some, but he gets quickly exhausted and has to rest frequently.
I have my 9-year old son helping with some of the sanding work so he stays involved and invested in the car.
The VFN parts are race car glass.
Does anyone else make a glass hood for the car? The reason I ask is you can spend a huge amount of time and product trying to make the hood look good. If there is one that is more refined it could be well worth the money. The hood is very important to get right as it is a large panel that gets a lot of attention.
Last edited by Bernhard; July 18th, 2022 at 09:15 AM.
June 27th, 2020, 09:27 PM
