Bernhard wrote:

You Quoted Dale when you made the comment?

Originally Posted by CANADIANOLDS View Post
On the flat tappet , yes. With the .904” MM series Comp lobes. That was one of the main reasons for using a .921” lifter block
He has previously said that lifter diameter is irrelevant.

 

What does it cost to increase the lifter bore diameter in an Oldsmobile 455 .842 block?

 

ya your not going to low budget with doing bushings .

you would just get a Toronado block

 

get an early Toro block

 

NO, there are advantages. But is these milders street/strip deals, there just not going to get into lobe profiles that will only work with a larger dia lifter. Like I stated above, my BB make just a tic under 2.6Hp/inch, shift just over 10,000 RPM, with 55 mm cam core, 1/2" double taper pushrods and .842 lifter.Now YES I could gain some with a bigger lifter and a bit more aggressive cam, but is the return in Hp worth that $$$ to do that.

I bet up here in Canada, HONESTLY I would be looking over $5,000.00! Bore and bush lifter bore, lifters, cam, springs & pushrods. IF doing that, might as well go to 60mm cam core at the time as there are advantages there too.

Now I'm not saying in an all-out max-effort deal the larger dia is not a benefit. I'm saying that for what we do with these mostly street cars with some strip time, the ROI is not there for most as the .842 will do whatever a larger lift can, and net be a heavy.

BUT if one is starting from scratch with nothing, then why not go to the bigger lifter as then the only cost difference is bore and bushing the lifter bores as one is then buy everything related to whatever lifter he has. That is why I have $30,000 worth in trans, converter, rear shocks and rear brakes alone.

 

That's my point about how a lifter diameter can be an advantage,that's all I'm saying.

 

Ok, this is the last time I’ll clog up this thread. If anyone wants to continue, start a new one.

i think it’s important to clear up some misconceptions on the advantages of big dia lifters and why the .921” flat tappet on some olds blocks is great for power in both hyd or solid.

here’s an example of how much more aggressive a flat tappet can be compared to a super aggressive roller..both solids

Comps .904” MM series solid flat.

adv duration /@ .050”/ @ .200” /lobe lift

301 / 275 / 193 / .426”

Comps most aggressive ramp roller TK series

301 / 273 / 197 / .430”

notice the solid flat beats it at .050” by 2 degrees , but the roller catches back up just under .200” lobe lift and above.

all the comp MM series .904” solids have this same aggressive ramp, from the 261 adv duration all the way to 305

the comp .904” hydraulic Xtreme Mopar intake lobes are also aggressive. Bullet also has some solids and hyd flats with similar ramps in their TQ series.

 

The problem here is when you quote somebody it only includes what they said. If it had included Dales responce to the other guy it would have made sense.
I wasn't trying to bust your chops.

 

Not trying to start trouble,just trying to clear up the subject.

 

Bernhard wrote:
Thanks Dale that explains very well how aggressive the ramps can be with the large lifter bore block.
In contrast what would an aggressive ramp for the .842 blocks with a flat tappet cam look like numbers wise?

 

Dale posted some good info above on the difference with FT vs Roller cams. We have found that in some cases that we would prefer NOT to run a larger lifter in a few applications, like nostalgia class at LeMans. I feel for the costs of going to a bigger lifter ONLY worth it when you go to a bigger cam core. One would be better of spintron test there junk then just going to a big dia lifter.

Larger lifters are not just a "bigger-is-better" deal as it's applications specific and not one size fits all.

Please answer this questions:

What is the cost vs benefit to going to a .921 lifter from a .842 on a street/strip OLDS 455 that makes 550/575Hp or even a 650Hp OLDS 455?

 

For the fifty fith time,my point was there are advantages using a larger diameterr lifter,end of story.

 

Me, myself and I think this is funny 🤣.

The use of "WE" on social media.

1. Formally representing a group or organization.
2. Being of a royal family.
3. Species, Borg.
4. ​​Dissociative identity disorder (DID).
5. Relater to Andy Miller.

 

And again we have seen many disadvantages too. Numerious times the larger dia lifter is not the best for certain applications. From drag racing to endurance road racing, larger is not always better. If that is to hard for you to understand, why stop at a .921 liftet and go straight to a 1.220 or so lifter. Sometimes the extra 18 or so grams per lifter makes the whole engine just not as happy. Been there done that. My crew chiefs 1100Hp NA SB. Ran better with a small lifter then the .937s.

But like I said its combo/application specific. Plus add that tothalargw base circle cam and lobe that less then .400 wide and 1.0" plus lifter, larger lifter just wasn't as happy @ 11,000 RPM.

 

I think Dale's explanation is very good under .200" lift is were the large dia lifter shines in a flat tappet application. When building an engine that has rules limiting cam shafts type to flat tappet cams only. Limitations on camshaft lift along with stock like cylinder head flow numbers, is where the large diameter lifters looks to be advantages. Budget performance engine builds is another place they look to be advantages.
I wonder if any stock class racers have used larger lifters than they were allowed to use or used an early Toro block for there 455 class engine build?
Thanks to all those that contributed its been very educational.

 

Good for him.

 

what's the part number for isky?

 

The lobes I compared above are not high RPM lobes unless you have ultra lite valve train like Ti valves, retainers etc which would still be a limited max RPM

im talking about the benefit of using them in a BB Olds. They cannot be controlled high upper RPM ranges. the ramps are way aggressive. Try to keep this in relation to the big or small block Olds.

all the lobes designed for big diameter flats with very aggressive ramps, no matter who it is, advises against using them for high RPM. there is no downside. From a grocery getter to a bad *** BB Olds, they make more power.

these are intake lobes. Exhaust is a different story where these types of lobes aren’t as much of a benefit.

 

Man this site/people are DIFFERENT!!!! I was point to the the fact that people just "think" that the larger dia. lifter is always better? THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

442, what experience do you, or your crew DIRECTLY have in racing to give opinions/experience? Or do you just regurgitate what you are told without your own knowledge to try to quantify the results on your own or your direct people?

Dale is so correct that these OLDS deals are low rpm deals USUALLY. Therefore the benefits of a larger diia. lifter helps. For our customers, it comes back as more of a return-on-investment then just is it better. You find out there goals. needs/wants and BUDGET. If one is looking for a nice, street/strip NA OLDS around 600Hp, the $$$ might be better suited spent somewhere else.

In this hobby, there is no one-size-fits-all!

 

First of all,I'm not getting into another pissing match with you. Second I'm 71 years old and my racing career was over many years ago. Multu time NHRA/IHRA National Record holder & won some Divisional points races. Runner up'd @ the IHRA Spring Nations and was invited to the 73 NHRA Finals in Amarillo TX. when it was by invitation only. I have nothing to prove,so carry on.

 

Nice, congrads really. Glad to know that you have some knowledge behind that screen name.

My group is also well versed in racing. Like NHRA US National Stock Eliminator champ. Many time IHRA/PDRA MMPS national event champs, NHRA Pro Stock qualifiers and in-house engine builder. Aussie Pro Stock, many different class NMCA class champs and national record holders. IHRA B/D Nation Record holder with worlds fastest SB Ford and CURRENT TF/D racer. So ya, the shop and my crew have been around and successful.And that just the close-knit group of 6 guys.

So to say I've learned alot is a understatement. BUT still can learn more only being 56.

Point is, we have learned there are many ways to get to your goals.

 

I forgot to mention thsat I raced in the NMCA back in the day. I held the H-Top Stock National record with my 66 W-30.

 

were you taking advantage of the big .921” lifter back then? Who was doing your cams?

 

[QUOTE=CANADIANOLDS;1470221]were you taking advantage of the big .921” lifter back then? Who was doing your cams?[/QUOT

Absolutely was spinning those big .921 units with a Dave Smith shaft.

 

[QUOTE=66-3X2 442;1470229]I wonder what the lobe specs were? 🤔

 

[QUOTE=CANADIANOLDS;1470241]I wish I could remember,that was 30 years ago. The car weighed 3920 with stock exhaust manifolds and ran 12.70's.

 

Nice !

 

[QUOTE=66-3X2 442

I wish I could remember,that was 30 years ago. The car weighed 3920 with stock exhaust manifolds and ran 12.70's.[/QUOTE]

Stock class racing Very cool !
What did the car run with headers in stock trim?
What was the best the car ever ran?

 

[QUOTE=66-3X2 442;1470242]442, nice car and EVEN BY TODAYS standards, that IS a good runner. Congrads.

 

Never ran headers on it. 12.70's was the best ET. It was a dual purpose car,driven on the street and raced. The H Top Stock class index was 13.20 and you couldn't dial down,so it wasn't a priority to make it quicker.

 

[QUOTE=New2oldsw30;1470305]Thanks

 

[QUOTE=66-3X2 442;1470242]what was the MPH?

 

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