What is the general consensus on using Hard Blok or Embeco 885 filler in a 455? I have one that was just bored to .060" and I'd like to provide some more cylinder wall / bottom end support. I have read where some have filled their blocks up all the way to the water pump holes. Does this induce cooling system problems on a street / strip car? I always use huge oiling systems:

8 quart pan
Dual remote oil filters
Large high BTU Oil Cooler
All -8 AN lines
12 quart dry fill / 11 quart oil change

I have read where some have had no problems with cooling, though know once this stuff is poured in, your are NOT getting it back out (!). I am tempted to spray this particular build with a 250 +/- shot of Nitrous (yes, billet main caps, full pan rail girdle, CNC machined billet Scat crank, H beam rods...) I don't want to be out on the Hotrod Power Tour stuck in traffic having a panic attack watching my temp gauge start climbing! Maybe only fill 1/2 to 3/4 of the way? or go for it all the way up to the water pump passages?

Your thoughts / experiences / suggestions please.

NOTE: This block fill discussion does not apply to the one engine I just had bored .060 - it is in regards to a second engine that is about to be bored. The .060 overbore in the other engine made me think about the block fill in this next engine...

Thank you kindly -

Paul

 

I have no experience personally, but I have heard of people building racing 455s filling it to the side block freeze plugs and stopping there.

I have no data to go by, but I would imagine by reducing cooling capacity in the block, you'd likely have to speed up the pump to help keep it cool in traffic, if it will even do it then. JMO.

Rocket Racing had a 4-bolt main block for around $5K and a steel billet crank for about $2K but not sure if they still have it. Supposedly better materials. But for what you're doing, I'm assuming you already have a 4-bolt cap kit.

 

For the money, time, and hassles I have into my 488 stroker, and my two back up 455's, I'd be money WAY ahead if I had just gone straight into the Rocket block package. I AM indeed actually considering selling everything and diving head first into a Rocket Racing beast...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, need to hear from some people that have run the block fill in as far as how it affected their cooling. My large oiling systems with the oil cooler should help a lot, but don't need to find things out the hard way (tired of that!).

Thanks much -

Paul

 

Following. I would like to know the answer as well. I didn't know anyone used it in a street engine. I would think it would cause cylinder issues for street even if the water temp did not overheat.

 

After the block has already been bored isn't the time to add block filler. That should have been done before any machining.

 

^^^this^^^

 

I agree with chadman. Block fill needs to be done before boring block to size you want.

 

My wonderful recent '72 Toronado 455 score (engine 3 in my current collection). I got it up on the test stand, then I oiled the cylinders, changed the oil and filter, cranked the engine over quite a few times with the drill motor building good oil pressure on a manual gauge installed, installed an HEI distributor in place of the points dizzy, installed a replacement carb, fresh set of plugs, some old headers with 40 series Flowmasters on the ends, then I powered up the ignition and it barked to life immediately! I could tell this thing was as virgin as the day it rolled off the assembly line, as everything was dead stock and untouched except for the valve cover gaskets. The micro thin head gaskets, factory intake manifold, timing cover, and oil pan gaskets. So virgin, that I actually felt some remorse that I was violating it (!).

Well... after it got over its crabby first 1/2 hour of idling at various slow speeds (valves sticking, lifters occasionally clattering), coming up to full temperature, I carefully stethoscoped every possible point not hearing any evil noises anymore. I then started throttling it some, with it responding well, oil pressure doing very well, engine sounding great with headers and Flowmasters sounding strong! I let it run for an hour at various speeds ranging from 600 RPM to 2500 RPM on some fresh 93 octane out of a 5 gallon gas can. After that, I shut it down, let everything cool down overnight. The next day, it started up like a new car - wonderful response, no noises - we have a winner! Or so I thought...

I fired it up the next day, let it fully warm up, then I nailed it a few times, wailing the secondaries open vigorously a few times. It was the equivalent of tipping over a barbeque. So much crap came dumping out of the exhaust of every color you could imagine. I actually had to break out the leaf blower to get all of the shmutz blown off of the cement apron! This beast was running good now - VERY good! There was some blue smoke out of both sides whenever I nailed it, so I thought that I may as well go through it and give it a fresh set of bearings, hone the cylinders, install some fresh rings, new oil pump, large 8 quart RWD oil pan - just a light overhaul to freshen this 50 year old virgin up. The idea here was to install a nice Crane hydraulic flat tappet I have had in stock, then "top end it" with some 69cc Speedmaster heads to offset the lowest compression very deep dished pistons, a very nice vintage Edelbrock 04B intake I have on hand, along with a nice adjustable roller rocker valve train with 3/8 pushrods so that I could have a good runner to at least roll my 442 around this summer.


(Notice the ultra greasy '79 Trans Am 403 sitting against the wall - haven't fired that one in a few years, supposing I should light it off now too)

To my complete dismay, cylinder 3 was not looking good when I pulled the heads. I was very surprised that I wasn't going to need a ridge reamer at the tops of the cylinder bores! I continued to pull everything apart, amazed at how virgin everything was. I found a nice "N" crank, the usual front wheel drive windage plates - good stuff. Never mind the ten pounds of solid chunky deposits found under the intake manifold and under the turkey tray that would have certainly inevitably killed the engine in short order by plugging up the oil pump pickup screen once the new modern oil started breaking it up...

Summary? Cylinder 3 apparently had an intake valve open and must have taken some rain water in at some point with the piston all the way down in its bore. I found enough corrosion damage, cylinder scoring, and a broken top piston ring to really break my heart. I ran a conventional 3 stone hone through the cylinder finding it was cleaning up a little, but then when I hit it with the cherry ball hone it dug up all of the corrosion pitted surfaces. Boy I threw every cuss word I could muster at the situation, as the other 7 cylinders still had factory cross hatch in their perfect bores. !@#$%^&*()_

Soooo.... I dropped it off at my favorite machine shop this afternoon, with all of us in agreement that even an .020 would clean it up, so targeting a .030 across the board - the boring bar will be the ultimate determining factor. The block is going to be VERY thoroughly cleaned and prepared, so now is the time to do the Hard Block or Embecco 885. While my machinist is a LONG time highly regarded race machinist, he and I both stared at each other when I brought up whether we should fill the block or not. This will work out to be about 10.5:1 - 11:1, being fed mostly E85, ARP main and rod bolts, but not going to be wailed on more than 5500 - 5800 RPM. It is going to be extremely well balanced, as this is Reeds specialty. He and I like the idea of beefing up the block with the filler from a strength perspective, but both of us are scratching our heads as to how it will behave stuck in traffic on a hot summer day with the A/C on. Yeah, BIG aluminum radiator, 12 quart oiling system with a good sized oil cooler, but we want to hear from someone that has "been there / done that" before we pour any goo down in there.

So, anybody have any real time street usage with a filled / partially filled block?

Let me know - thanks!

Paul

 

On a slightly different note, I now have a thoroughly run tested set of 1972 unleaded spec Ga heads with what seem to measure out as 2" intake and 1.6" exhaust valves, a non EGR Toro intake (without the usual crack in the bottom crossover), a rather nice Toro spec points distributor (seems like lots of mechanical advance in this model as I could rotate the rotor quite a bit in relation to the shaft, points cam, weights and springs look mint), and a FWD 6 quart Toro pan available that I am not going to be using. PM me if you have any interest, but keep in mind I do know what they are worth...

 

For the sake of discussion, what would be the pitfalls of filling a block that was just machined? The Hard Blok or Embeco 885 filler screw with the bore sizes / block due to some sort of expansion? I know the block has to be perfectly clean, but how would it impact an engine that was machined before the block fill was poured in?

Here is the HardBlok info stating that it does not expand or shrink like other block fillers do:

HardBlok Details

It does specifically state that other products shrink and expand causing troubles with distortion.

Here is a quote out of this discussion:

"HardBlok claims that you can do it after machining."

HardBlok installed after machining

And here is another:

https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/e...sembly.168348/

Just curious - never used block fill before, so I want to know.

Thanks!

Paul

 

I love these posts. Ask for an opinion, don't agree with or like said opinions, try to justify case against said opinions, then do it anyway....

 

The baseline question in this entire conversation is how much Hard Blok can a street / strip 455 tolerate before getting into any potential cooling system problems. If I recall correctly (and maybe I don't), there was a post I read (I believe somewhere on this forum) where a gentleman had filled his block to the height of the water pump passages and it did not particularly impact his cooling performance, as the majority of the heat is generated in the cylinder heads, which are still receiving ample coolant flow. It is my experience that aluminum cylinder heads vastly improve cooling system performance, while good oil temperature control can handle the lower part of the cylinders and pistons.

A discussion evidencing that Hard Blok (the manufacturer itself) stating that the product can be installed after machining is brought to the table. The other brands are not capable of this due to expansion issues. Your remarks are not constructive to the actual technical aspects of this discussion... I am looking for somebody that has real time experience with Hard Blok fill running on the street to chime in with their results. 1/3 fill, 1/2 fill, or filled all the way to the water pump passages - that's what I am looking for.

Thank you kindly!

Paul

 

It's one of those questions without a definite answer. The heat an engine creates and the cooling system's ability to remove it are variables yet to be determined. If I were to say "mine is filled to the water pump holes, I use 93 octane, and run it on the street, in traffic, at 100⁰ ambient, and it never goes over 190", then yours won't cool below 240⁰, I must be full of it and you're mad for taking my advice. You would have to duplicate a working setup EXACTLY, or just send it and hope for the best by mitigating as much heat creation as possible.
If your goal is Power Tour, I wouldn't risk it.

 

Regardless of what the manufacture claims I would check the bores with a dial bore gauge before and after filling.

 

I'm not aware of anybody that has done the combination of hard block fill and also taken their car on Power Tour. Since you mentioned you're going to run E85, the top end of the engine should run somewhat cooler. The oil should stay cool with the external cooler.

If it were me, I'd go to the Rocket Racing block so it can handle the abuse and ditch the big externally-plumbed oiling system. I do know of someone with a 10 second street Olds that had a failure on the external oil hose and it trashed the engine before they caught it.

 

I've had a filled block since 2009, to the bottom of the freeze plug holes. It's a 630 hp street/strip build on pump gas. Cooling has never been an issue on the street. I run a Meziere electric pump and Dodge stratus fans.

Now, oil temperature is an issue. I have a my oil temp sensor in the pan, and it'll bury the 260 degree gauge with some extended cruising easily. The previous non-filled block never did this.

For reference, my other vehicle has a turbo ls swap and pan temps rarely see 240, even after extended highway cruising...as in hours.

 

I have talked to a number of Pontiac and Ford big block guys (who happen to be a lot more receptive to this conversation), having block arrangements similar to the Olds, finding that the trade off is cooling system temp versus oil temps - kinda take you pick depending on how much you want to fill it. Since I have always run too cold on my oiling side, takes forever to get to 160 before I feel comfortable enough to romp on it, even on the hottest Tennessee days with the A/C on full blast. I have to wait quite some time for the oil pressure gauge to settle down off the pegged zone - at least 15 minutes on a hot day. With that being said, I have made the decision to fill to the bottoms of the freeze plugs - MAYBE the middle of the freeze plugs MAX, then count on the overkilled 12 quart oiling system to balance out the overall cooling. 12 quarts dry fill, 11 quart oil change. 8 in the pan, a quart each in the two large remote oil filters, and the rest in the lines and cooler that drain out rather completely during oil changes. Valvoline VR1 20W50 blue oil never changes color much, almost a shame to watch it literally go down the drain during oil changes. Right now my machinist and I are looking at lightening up the rotating mass - the lighter we can get it, the less Hard Blok we will pour in it. He is also a nationally renowned magician when it comes to balancing (builds wicked balancing equipment), so that will help immensely too. We are also talking about possibly coating the tops of the pistons to keep the heat out of the pistons some. My builds make power well into the 6k+ zone, though I try to keep them at a max of 6k. A little bit of additional strength in the bottom webs of the block will come in handy - more so on the outside / rail side of the cylinders.

So that's where I'm currently at - a fill point somewhere between the bottoms of the freeze plugs and the middles. I have set it up where it would be rather simple to install yet a larger oil cooler, but I doubt I will need to. The one criteria for this 442 is to be able to build it tough enough to make a cross country trip to visit my folks back up in my original stomping grounds of Detroit without a problem, save for having a heart attack at the gas pump every two hundred miles. I haven't looked in a while to see what E85 is priced at these days, but I'm sure it isn't much cheaper than super unleaded these days. I'm counting on the cooling effect the E85 is going to bring to the intake side to help keep a further lid on the temperatures. I'm still torn whether I want to wet flow the intake with feeding it with the Terminator throttle body, or PFI it. Everything is telling me to PFI it, but seeing wet flow alcohol / E85 intakes frost up at 2200 RPM is pretty darn chilly!

Thanks much for your feedback - it really helps to hear your experiences with your build!

Paul

 

488 EFI Stroker, 4L85E trans, Moser FAB9 rear axle. Nobody thinks much of it until I hit the exhaust dumps and light the tires at a 30 roll right past them.

The Hurst Lightning Rods always make people scratch their heads:



I have always tried to keep it looking like something that may have snuck out of the back door of the GM tech center. Great cruiser, but also a serious bruiser.

Hey, I wish it was a '68 instead of a '86, but it is old enough now to qualify as a classic!

Paul

 

8 qts in the pan, huh?

 

9 1/8" baffled deep sump - sits just low enough below the frame to occasionally make me nervous about objects in the road, but not enough to worry about bottoming out on a properly approached speed bump. I have considered making a 1/4" thick piece of angle iron to bolt to the bottom of the frame to make sure I don't catch my pan sump on anything. It gets plenty of wind / air cooling out on the road. As you see in the picture of my car, I haven't particularly lowered it... The "box" area is 9 1/2" x 9 1/2", way larger than my previous Moroso 7 quart pan, which is 8 1/4 deep with a "box" area of 9 x 9. The previous Moroso pan was "safe", as it sat about level with the frame. I run a full length DMR windage tray, along with the front Toro splash baffle and the rear DMR splash baffle (the type that sandwiches between the oil pump and the rear main cap).

The sump "expansion box" is such a big square box that the engine has to be dropped straight down onto the engine mounts - no wiggle room - it's tight. Anybody interested in this pan needs to watch out though, as there are a TON of them out there that look just like this but have no internal baffle - be warned, look specifically for pictures of the internal baffle or don't buy it.





Paul

 

I know a guy that runs Hot Rod Drag Week with a 496 that's filled to the water pump holes. He has an external oil cooler plumbed using an OEM diesel filter adapter.

 

Block remote adapter



The topmost cooler is the engine oil cooler - right in the direct airstream. The cooler on the passenger bottom is the auxiliary trans cooler (getting upgraded with a beefier one shortly), the cooler on the driver's side is the power steering / hydroboost cooler.



Twin HP1's tucked right up out of sight / harms way.




Here is the 488 waiting its turn to go back under the knife. I am REALLY liking CVF's new serp belt system! All of the other systems I have seen without an automatic tensioner have been decidedly BS despite their good looks... The heads are coming off shortly and shipping out to CutlassEFI for him to CNC port them up - THAT is going to make some serious power.


Meanwhile, I hope to get one of the other two 455's I have in motion installed so that I can at least run it down the road for the first time in 3 years this summer - sigh...

 

I tried to run a filled block on the street once and granted i didnt build the engine but it was filled to water pump holes and i had a very large oil cooler and it always got hot and oil would get too thin.
It was a drag race set up only. Cooling system was good for coolant.

 

A modern ring pack and piston will reduce engine temperature.
Your oil pans chrome finish may effect your oil pans ability dissipate heat?

 

Yes, a modern piston and ring pack will be used in the 488 engine getting the Hard Blok (as I am having custom pistons made for it). It is also equipped with a fully rollerized valve train that also reduces heat produced. This engine is a also getting the DMR billet main caps, along with a new design 5 five cap pan rail girdle. The modified pan is welded to accommodate the pan rail girdle, which looks so / so - I will likely be sending it out for a replate into a new clear blue hexavalent zinc. That will help transfer some radiant heat better.

The other engine currently being built is using the Icon886 piston. It is a more modern piston design, running a modern low drag ring pack.

Everything I have researched is showing me that filling to the bottoms of the freeze plugs will be the safest play, while still providing gains in block integrity in the area needed most. The more I think about it, the more I believe I will get all three engines (the 488, and the two back up 455's) done, sell one of the back up 455's outright, scavenge the 488 for parts for the Rocket Block, keep one of the back up 455's in the car, then seriously consider getting into a Rocket Block next year. Or? See what I may be able to get for the 488, built, documented, in a "can hear run" scenario on a test stand or in the car? By that time, I will have a set of CutlassEFI's CNC ported heads to put on the Rocket Block, the 4.5 CNC machined billet SCAT crank from the 488, along with a host of other parts getting me closer to making it all happen. Given enough proceeds from the sale of one of the backup 455's, and also the 488, I may just be able to get into a Rocket Racing package. Build THAT beast with a 4.200" bore, then just run it without worrying about it always being on the ragged edge. For what I have into the three engines, I could've easily, and really should have just set me sites on the Rocket Block build. Hindsight is always crystal clear!

Paul

 

Not for your current build but for possible future builds you should check out Canton Oil pans. Its the nicest steel pan that I have seen.
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-oil-pans.html

Good luck with your builds

 

I've seen a few F blocks split down the cam journals. Hard Blok and girdles won't help that.

 

After finding myself being irritated with all of the discussions regarding the Hard Blok, and all of the hassles I am running into with bringing my other two 455's into existence, I did it - I took the plunge / bit the bullet and bought the new Rocket Racing block. My 488, "Project Cabrone" has also been irritating me with having to install the Dick Miller Racing billet steel main caps along with the 5 cap full pan rail girdle, requiring some special machining (read that as costs and delays).

I currently have CutlassEFI CNC porting my Speedmaster heads I have shipped in to him, so I have put in a request for him to drill upsize all of the head bolt holes to accommodate the 1/2" cylinder head bolt hole sizes that the Rocket block come with. Rocket Racing is also supplying the two eyebrow flat top CNC machined special billet pistons, modern moly ring pack, and honing the cylinders to custom fit each piston and ring set per cylinder for me.

That way, all I have to do when the Rocket Racing block arrives is to gather up my CNC machined billet SCAT 4.5" stroker crank, the Eagle H beam rods, and the new custom machined pistons, run them over to my machinist to have him super balance the rotating mass. Once balanced, I can immediately start assembly of the new engine. The way the timing is working out, I may have the short block done right about in time to receive my CNC ported heads back from CutlassEFI and then get the top end built!

This has worked out to be rather expensive, so I am digging through my stash of Olds parts and getting them up onto the market. My complete "can hear run" '79 Trans Am 403 is now going across the chopping block, and I am considering also putting the 68k VIN9 high output 307 originally out of my car also up for sale. I was going to keep that all original 5 liter for it's "numbers matching" status to the car, but I'm kind of over that now, as I really can't imagine anybody ever putting that factory engine back into this car. I have some other Olds "stash" that I have to go through to see what I may want to keep / sell. I also currently have two other 455 builds in motion, now thinking I will likely also put them up on the chopping block too. I can get them all set up, ready to run on the test stands, break them in just right, then have them also listed up for sale as "can hear run" fresh complete builds. I suppose the thing to do now is to take a whole bunch of pictures as the other two 455's are coming together so that anybody interested could look at a whole volley of assembly pics to see all of the special parts going in, to add to the "can hear run" factor to give a person the highest level of confidence in the builds. Maybe it would even be worth sending them out to be dyno'd, so that print outs with big numbers can also prove what they can do - I'll have to check into that, as that would be cool to have dyno sheets and videos to go along with the engines! Hmmm, maybe I should save one of the 455's as a back up engine after all, just keep it on the test stand and light it off every few weeks to keep it fresh and happy.

Summary? I was not particularly heading towards the Rocket Racing block, but now that it's bought and paid for, I feel SO much better knowing I can really lean on this build more than any other previous Olds build I have ever done. Forget about Hard Blok, pan rail girdles, worrying about everything holding together... This build is going to be the strongest Olds build I have done, and am very much looking forward to it!

Sooo.. maybe we all learned something about the Hard Blok in this discussion, but I'm taking all of that off the table now

Now it will be time to design a special cam thrust plate for these Rocket Blocks now too, as I am most certainly not going to be using a "silly" little thrust button on this build. I doubt there will be much demand for these, but who knows, maybe Rocket Racing may be interested in carrying them once I show them what I have designed for my build.

Thanks much to all for your input on the Hard Blok, but my end of this discussion is now over.

Paul

 

Awesome, man! How big of a bore will the Rocket block be? Any power adder thoughts/dreams?

 

Yeah man, I'm riding a little bit of that classic Olds high right now, even putting the picture set of the Rocket block up as my PC desktop wallpaper for now.

I went conservative on the bore, only 4.200" which takes it just shy of 500 cubes. That leaves plenty of cylinder wall in the highly unlikely event of a spirolock / wrist pin / piston failure at any point, leaving it rebuildable all the way up to their max of a 4.400" bore. They are setting the pistons and ring end gaps a tad loose upon my request, as now I am tempted to spray it pretty strong - thinking about a big fat 200-250 plate system somewhere on down the line for the occasional wobbly knees and shaking hands effect.

Meanwhile, it is being set up for 11.5:1, going to Holley Dominator MPFI, and flex fuel so that I can treat the E85 as race gas. E85 blends vary, but most come in at 99 to a 110 octane, so it's going to be like the good ol' days where you could go fill up with a tank full of Torco or Turbo Blue (man I miss the smell of that stuff!). So, the high compression combined with the big time cooling effects of atomizing alcohol, along with the fact that alcohol also has a higher oxygen content in it, will allow me to feed it plenty of fuel, cam, and timing to achieve some strong performance out of it. I love the fact that I can put a valet tune in the car before I hand the keys to my daughter, otherwise she'd kill herself with a quickness. Taking it in for an alignment, setting the rev limiter at 2k - just enough so it can be driven into the shop and then road tested - gotta love technology combined with a 50+ year old engine design.

Now the looooong term dream is to drop the compression way down the opposite direction and then install a couple of whistlers (twin turbo it). With the 4L85E, Bowler triple disc anti balloon plate 1000+ horse rated converter, carbon fiber driveshaft, and the Moser Fab9 rear end, I know it would be able to take the power without grenading, BUT I only have the frame rails narrowed with the UMI kit, limiting me to a 295mm tire right now. Being a 68k original virgin car, I don't want to cut it up... well, at least not yet (lol) to be able to put any serious rubber back there. As it stood with the previous 488 stroker, it would blow the tires off at a 30 roll, so it's going to be even more of a handful now. 3600 lbs with my butt in the seat, full tank of gas. You also start to really bend and tweak these G bodies when you get too much power into them, which I don't want to do - 1/4 panels popping, A pillar cracks, all that bad stuff. I did put urethane frame bushings in it which really stiffened it up nicely, but after not having driven the car for three years because of troubles with my 488 "Project Cabrone", I'll be tickled just to feel some damn torque again hopefully before the summer is out.

Paul

 

Congrats! Sounds like a fun combo that should meet your goals and last.