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Need some help with an EFI question. I have a buddy who's building a 66 Vista Cruiser with a 496 engine & a 4L80E trans. He wants to use EFI and was needing thoughts on the throttle body versus the multiport system. I have no experience with EFI but I have another buddy who does. He says the multiport is a better choice. This is a street car not a racecar. Also, if the multiport is indeed a better choice do they make Edelbrock intakes for the injector provisions already installed. Thanks for any and all help.
The throttle-body FI systems are really injection carburetors. So, some carburetor quirks remain. Those would include poor fuel distribution (caused by the intake manifold) and slight hesitation on acceleration (because the enrichment squirt takes a bit of time to reach the cylinder).
The poor fuel distribution costs a bit of power, but the throttle body fuel stays in the airstream longer before it reaches the cylinder. That allows more evaporation, which cools the charge, lowers pressure drop, and increases power overall.
The multiport injection gives better fuel distribution--therefore better fuel economy, smoother running, and faster starting. The fuel addition point is so close to the cylinder that it gives faster response to throttle position without requiring such a big shot for acceleration. But power is usually down a bit from an injection carburetor setup.
I don't know of any Oldsmobile intakes that are currently set up for injectors. Proforms were in the past, so it might be possible to find a used one.
I sent my Edelbrock intake and 8 injectors to Wilson Manifolds to have bungs welded in. They did a superb job.
Last edited by VC455; May 10th, 2024 at 03:11 PM.
Reason: added pictures
The throttle-body FI systems are really injection carburetors. So, some carburetor quirks remain. Those would include poor fuel distribution (caused by the intake manifold) and slight hesitation on acceleration (because the enrichment squirt takes a bit of time to reach the cylinder).
The poor fuel distribution costs a bit of power, but the throttle body fuel stays in the airstream longer before it reaches the cylinder. That allows more evaporation, which cools the charge, lowers pressure drop, and increases power overall.
The multiport injection gives better fuel distribution--therefore better fuel economy, smoother running, and faster starting. The fuel addition point is so close to the cylinder that it gives faster response to throttle position without requiring such a big shot for acceleration. But power is usually down a bit from an injection carburetor setup.
I don't know of any Oldsmobile intakes that are currently set up for injectors. Proforms were in the past, so it might be possible to find a used one.
I sent my Edelbrock intake and 8 injectors to Wilson Manifolds to have bungs welded in. They did a superb job.
Thank you very much for the help. I found a couple of intakes that have the injector bungs on eBay. I can get the bungs installed local so that won't be a problem. Here's the intakes from eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/385721318447 https://www.ebay.com/itm/134718036014
I don't think the single plane unit would be a good choice and not sure the air gap will clear the hood. Thoughts?
Last edited by 66-3X2 442; May 10th, 2024 at 04:12 PM.
With multiport EFI, you don't need to be concerned about fuel distribution, so you are free to use the intake with the straightest shot into the cylinder port to give more power.
The only drawback with a single plane is the height.
That brings up what will fit under the hood. Here are some measurements to help you decide.
The baseline height is calculated from these...
The typical 1970 455 4-bbl cast iron (non-Toronado) intake casting. This is the same height as the W-30 castings.
The Quadrajet.
Differences from baseline are
Edelbrock Performer +1.65"
Edelbrock Torker +1.75"
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap +2.24"
Edelbrock Victor +4.90"
FAST MPFI throttle body 307603P, 1375 cfm -1.422"
Accel MPFI throttle body 74202S4, 1200 cfm -1.652"
So, for example, if you paired a Performer with an Accel throttle body, your height difference would be +1.65 -1.652 = -0.002. It would be essentially the same height as an OEM manifold with a Quadrajet.
The linked intakes don't have provision for standard brackets for AC and alternator/power steering. As well, the suppliers would need to provide the carb pad height so you could evaluate vs the typical Olds intake with carb pad height of 3.30"
Last edited by VC455; May 10th, 2024 at 04:56 PM.
Reason: Added info about the intakes that were linked
Get ready to spend a small fortune for SEFI. I am well over 3 grand US. My RPM intake modified by Wilson, I believe, was around $1000 to do. $500 minimum for a throttle body, $300+ for a dual sync distributor and nearly $2000 for the Terminator X Max, if want transmission control. So far, it runs like crap, hopefully Cutlassefi tune straightens it out this weekend.
TBI’s are just electronic carbs.
To quote Keith Wilson of Wilson manifolds, “if it’s the right intake for a carb, then it’s the right intake for EFI”. The reason most use single planes is because the bungs are easier to install, all the runners are the same height. That doesn’t necessarily make them the best. They lack air velocity at lower rpm’s. And unless you’re an experienced tuner, it’ll be more difficult tuning for drivability.
The Speedmaster/Pro products EFI ready dual planes aren’t bad for the money.
But if you want the best performance I’d do a Performer and have it bunged.
Then hire a good tuner. NONE of these systems are truly self tuning, none.
And get a good throttle body/air valve. You’ll be glad you did.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 10th, 2024 at 05:49 PM.
TBI’s are just electronic carbs.
To quote Keith Wilson of Wilson manifolds, “if it’s the right intake for a carb, then it’s the right intake for EFI”. The reason most use single planes is because the bungs are easier to install, all the runners are the same height. That doesn’t necessarily make them the best. They lack air velocity at lower rpm’s. And unless you’re an experienced tuner, it’ll be more difficult tuning for drivability.
The Speedmaster/Pro products EFI ready dual planes aren’t bad for the money.
But if you want the best performance I’d do a Performer and have it bunged.
Then hire a good tuner. NONE of these systems are truly self tuning, none.
And get a good throttle body/air valve. You’ll be glad you did.
The Performer would be the choice beings the bungs can be installed. Can you recommend a good throttle body?
Get ready to spend a small fortune for SEFI. I am well over 3 grand US. My RPM intake modified by Wilson, I believe, was around $1000 to do. $500 minimum for a throttle body, $300+ for a dual sync distributor and nearly $2000 for the Terminator X Max, if want transmission control. So far, it runs like crap, hopefully Cutlassefi tune straightens it out this weekend.
He knows it's going to be expensive but I guarantee you it will be the nicest 66 Vista Cruiser on the planet when gets through with it.
I'm thinking $5-8k would be realistic, including the fuel system.
I liken the tbi systems to electric cars. They can work and be efficient, but not necessarily the best approach.
I keep hearing threats, admittedly not for some time, about LS to Olds intake adapters. They haven't surfaced, yet. Id be on that like a fat kid on a chocolate cake.
The Performer would be the choice beings the bungs can be installed. Can you recommend a good throttle body?
Although pricey, the Wilson 4 hole is the best I’ve seen, a quality piece. Plus it’s real short so you’ll have more hood clearance.
Next would probably either the FAST or Accufab.
He knows it's going to be expensive but I guarantee you it will be the nicest 66 Vista Cruiser on the planet when gets through with it.
😂😂😂😂 if you listen to the experts on here..it run like a bag of shyt.
just drill the bungs strait down with a hand drill, pointing right at the floor. that’s what all the cool kids do. it’ll be the most awesome injected olds on planet earth.
send it to Wilson manifolds..they’ll fix you up . They’ll hand drill it for you
The throttle-body FI systems are really injection carburetors. So, some carburetor quirks remain. Those would include poor fuel distribution (caused by the intake manifold) and slight hesitation on acceleration (because the enrichment squirt takes a bit of time to reach the cylinder).
The poor fuel distribution costs a bit of power, but the throttle body fuel stays in the airstream longer before it reaches the cylinder. That allows more evaporation, which cools the charge, lowers pressure drop, and increases power overall.
The multiport injection gives better fuel distribution--therefore better fuel economy, smoother running, and faster starting. The fuel addition point is so close to the cylinder that it gives faster response to throttle position without requiring such a big shot for acceleration. But power is usually down a bit from an injection carburetor setup.
I don't know of any Oldsmobile intakes that are currently set up for injectors. Proforms were in the past, so it might be possible to find a used one.
I sent my Edelbrock intake and 8 injectors to Wilson Manifolds to have bungs welded in. They did a superb job.
that’s a beautiful piece. to bad your injectors are at the worst spray angle you could get.
the injectors should be aimed at the backside of the intake valve, not at the port floor. even Olds knew that over 40 years ago when they aimed the injectors at the intake valve.
you got burned paying for that injector placement…I would ask for my money back
...the injectors should be aimed at the backside of the intake valve, not at the port floor. even Olds knew that over 40 years ago when they aimed the injectors at the intake valve.
Over 40??? It was 67 years ago when GM debuted mechanical Rochester Fuel Injection for Chev, Pontiac, and Olds. The injectors pointed at the intake valve stem when the valve was open.
😂😂😂😂 if you listen to the experts on here..it run like a bag of shyt.
just drill the bungs strait down with a hand drill, pointing right at the floor. that’s what all the cool kids do. it’ll be the most awesome injected olds on planet earth.
send it to Wilson manifolds..they’ll fix you up . They’ll hand drill it for you
We will use a drill press and angle the bungs toward the plenum so it will get more atomization.
Over 40??? It was 67 years ago when GM debuted mechanical Rochester Fuel Injection for Chev, Pontiac, and Olds. The injectors pointed at the intake valve stem when the valve was open.
im talking about port injection on the Olds. remember they did that on the 350 Olds in the caddy?
Over 40??? It was 67 years ago when GM debuted mechanical Rochester Fuel Injection for Chev, Pontiac, and Olds. The injectors pointed at the intake valve stem when the valve was open.
let’s keep the conversation on the Olds injection I was taking about.
I would put that intake of yours on eBay..get rid of that piece of scrap.
You can’t lay the injectors over far enough to hit the back of the valve on just about any Carb style intake. And that’s as much for emissions today as anything else. So that’s a moot point.
You can however, play with injector timing and that can and will provide some benefit.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 12th, 2024 at 05:10 AM.
Gang,
I’ve been interested in multiport EFI for years, but it sounds like proper EFI induction is still well over >$4k USD vs say $800 for a solid 800 CFM carb. Throttle body injection holds no interest for me at all - it’s just not a big enough leap to be worth the time, $, and exotic nature to be worth it to me.
On the cost side, I’m guessing $1k for high pressure fuel pump in tank (or a loud one on the frame rail) including the return line if my car didn’t have one as delivered. Then say $3k for drilled intake manifold and EFI throttle body including fuel rail and electronics. Assuming my labor to do it is free.
I’m no expert, but with my 800 CFM qjet, I’m getting lambdas / AFR of more or less 1.00/ 14.2:1 across the RPM band from Idle to WOT. Even my MPG runs from 10-15 town to highway. I’d still like to convince myself on an EFI big block Olds, but I just can’t quite get there.
I’m just not seeing the benefit of a 5x spend over a properly tuned carb. No disrespect at all if that’s how you guys want your car.
EFI is very attractive to me, but I’m just missing the benefit of a 5x spend over a carb.
Anybody got compelling arguments on why EFI over a well tuned carb? More than interested and totally willing to listen.
Gang,
I’ve been interested in multiport EFI for years, but it sounds like proper EFI induction is still well over >$4k USD vs say $800 for a solid 800 CFM carb. Throttle body injection holds no interest for me at all - it’s just not a big enough leap to be worth the time, $, and exotic nature to be worth it to me.
On the cost side, I’m guessing $1k for high pressure fuel pump in tank (or a loud one on the frame rail) including the return line if my car didn’t have one as delivered. Then say $3k for drilled intake manifold and EFI throttle body including fuel rail and electronics. Assuming my labor to do it is free.
I’m no expert, but with my 800 CFM qjet, I’m getting lambdas / AFR of more or less 1.00/ 14.2:1 across the RPM band from Idle to WOT. Even my MPG runs from 10-15 town to highway. I’d still like to convince myself on an EFI big block Olds, but I just can’t quite get there.
I’m just not seeing the benefit of a 5x spend over a properly tuned carb. No disrespect at all if that’s how you guys want your car.
EFI is very attractive to me, but I’m just missing the benefit of a 5x spend over a carb.
Anybody got compelling arguments on why EFI over a well tuned carb? More than interested and totally willing to listen.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Chris
Your numbers are off a little. You can do it for less than 4k. And if you’re at 14.2 from idle to WOT, you have issues.
Finally, another benefit you’re not taking into account is timing control. The ability to infinitely adjust timing, even adding and subtracting timing when the application goes from first start up to full running temp, is priceless. You can’t duplicate that any other way.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 12th, 2024 at 05:13 AM.
I’m just not seeing the benefit of a 5x spend over a properly tuned carb. No disrespect at all if that’s how you guys want your car.
Anybody got compelling arguments on why EFI over a well tuned carb?
Hi Chris,
In many aspects, most of us do adhere to the "not broken; don't fix" principle.
On the other hand, these cars are a hobby. And some of us are overwhelmingly curious or creative--leading us to "improve" our cars. And many of those improvements are not justifiable economically (or even logically).
When I met my future wife, I was impressed that she never said anything about my car obsessions. When asked, she said that she understood because she had a horse for years and "horses eat money."
The timing control is neat, it changes constantly. For transmission control, which is another huge bonus, the Terminator X Max is $1800, $1600 on sale, I went that route in case a reasonable priced 2WD 4L80E appears, good luck with that. It was $1000 to convert my intake, easy $500 for a throttle body, really nice Wilson is $1000! Also $300+ on sale for the MSD Dual Sync distributor, you also need a MSD box of some kind, I had a Mallory Hyfire laying around. Another $200 for a tune, as is was worthless generic crap. Also $450 on sale for the in tank retro fuel pump module. Add in $200 each, need two for the fuel and oil sensor outputs. Also needed a MAT sensor, separate for some throttle bodies. I bought the cheap $20 Amazon version of those Holley sensors which basically put up numbers. I bought a couple extra, all read different, put in the highest reading ones. My actual oil pressure gauge reads 10 to 20 psi higher and my fuel pressure is 10 to 20 psi lower than the mechanical gauge. I'm throwing on my 300 psi service gauge on to make sure my fuel pressure is up snuff actually driving around. I am still getting a lean spike right off idle. Mark's tune definitely improved it but it shouldn't be hard to fuel a 300+ HP Olds 358. Used the stock fuel line, added braided lines with double EFI clamps at every joint. I added in a 100 micron big cleanable filter just after the tank then a 10 micron big cleanable filter just before the rail. There is no return on my car, Holley claims it isn't necessary but I read dome had issues with Holley's internal regulator. I also installed the Mr Gasket 30 amp fuel pump relay kit to power the fuel pump. With the dual Plymouth Breeze fans, can also be controlled by the Terminator X, the 105 amp CS130 alternator barely keeps up, voltage drops to low 13's under full load at idle. So your factory 40 amp alternator won't cut it. No, $4000 is pretty much bang on unless you modify the manifold yourself, get some deals and hit all the sales. It is what it is, everything has gone up. The SEFI 358 will liquefy the one tire when I floor it. Man does the little 358 sound great through stainless full length headers, stainless dual cats, 2.5" pipes and 2.5" stainless Flowmaster FX straight through mufflers and 2.5" tail pipes out the back. It's pricey, costs many dollars and time to install and dial in SEFI.
You can’t lay the injectors over far enough to hit the back of the valve on just about any Carb style intake. And that’s as much for emissions today as anything else. So that’s a moot point.
You can however, play with injector timing and that can and will provide some benefit.
Gary said that Wilson did his manifold and I would take their word and work over a chest beater any day. In the NHRA P/S world there has been some intakes bounced because of injector positioning. They have a rule that says where the injector can be placed. Erica Enders and Elite Motorsports had an intake bounced after Tanner Gray won a Championship with the same manifold.
Gary said that Wilson did his manifold and I would take their word and work over a chest beater any day. In the NHRA P/S world there has been some intakes bounced because of injector positioning. They have a rule that says where the injector can be placed. Erica Enders and Elite Motorsports had an intake bounced after Tanner Gray won a Championship with the same manifold.
You can’t lay them over enough on ANY Olds intake. Take a sharpie and run it down the bung. It’ll make a mark in the head runner where the middle of the injector spray actually is. It’ll still be inches away from the back of the valve.
And I believe NHRA, like NASCAR, dictate injector placement, typically mid runner. They’re going after power, not drivability.
You can’t lay the injectors over far enough to hit the back of the valve on just about any Carb style intake. And that’s as much for emissions today as anything else. So that’s a moot point.
You can however, play with injector timing and that can and will provide some benefit.
Gary said that Wilson did his manifold and I would take their word and work over a chest beater any day. In the NHRA P/S world there has been some intakes bounced because of injector positioning. They have a rule that says where the injector can be placed. Erica Enders and Elite Motorsports had an intake bounced after Tanner Gray won a Championship with the same manifold.
I have an RPM small block intake that Mark had bunged by someone (not wilson). The hand-written note on the box was "lay over the injectors as much as possible". The driver side rail comes within 1/8" of the TV cable hookup on the throttle body. It made getting the linkage set up a bit of a headache and everything is cramped in the back. Still not over far enough to hit the valve, but it does go down the head port.
I'm using the Edelbrock "4150" and it's working well. I had an early Proform and it wasn't machined correctly. You have to choose whether you want an IAT or a MAP in the throttle body - one or the other.
The Wilson is the shortest, but also the priciest.
TBI is quick and usually cheaper, but you may be stuck with issues. e.g. I set up an Atomic on a SBC 350 and it just has trouble moving around parking lots. Stalls a lot.
MPEFI gives many more options, but it depends on the ECU and the skill of the tuner.
I have an RPM small block intake that Mark had bunged by someone (not wilson). The hand-written note on the box was "lay over the injectors as much as possible". The driver side rail comes within 1/8" of the TV cable hookup on the throttle body. It made getting the linkage set up a bit of a headache and everything is cramped in the back. Still not over far enough to hit the valve, but it does go down the head port.
MPEFI gives many more options, but it depends on the ECU and the skill of the tuner.
Correct on all accounts.
AND even setting the injectors straight up and down will enable them to still shoot at the port floor. But obviously much closer to the opening than the valve.
In my experience it can’t be done, unless you configure the intake and head more like.a cathedral port LS. Otherwise you just have make do with what you have.
I have an RPM small block intake that Mark had bunged by someone (not wilson). The hand-written note on the box was "lay over the injectors as much as possible". The driver side rail comes within 1/8" of the TV cable hookup on the throttle body. It made getting the linkage set up a bit of a headache and everything is cramped in the back. Still not over far enough to hit the valve, but it does go down the head port.
I'm using the Edelbrock "4150" and it's working well. I had an early Proform and it wasn't machined correctly. You have to choose whether you want an IAT or a MAP in the throttle body - one or the other.
The Wilson is the shortest, but also the priciest.
TBI is quick and usually cheaper, but you may be stuck with issues. e.g. I set up an Atomic on a SBC 350 and it just has trouble moving around parking lots. Stalls a lot.
MPEFI gives many more options, but it depends on the ECU and the skill of the tuner.
key words there..lay them over as much as possible, which is correct.
the shot angle shouldn’t even be a discussion. that’s port injection 101 basics.
May 10th, 2024, 02:33 PM
