Ok guys im buying the windage tray and oil pan baffle from dmr. which for the price not bad imo. Im also buying oil pan studs, oil pump studs, main studs and head studs, Im modifying my own oil pan and pick up, . I was wondering if the oil pan baffle is a good choice from what i undertand it is but idlike to hear some good input here. i have never used a windage tray or oil pan baffle. But since im not cutting corners on this engine i figured why not if it dont hurt it it's probably going in.

 

I have had a Milodon windage tray in my last few motors. I guess all my motors. My engine builder liked how they did it. The slots, inverted divots, whatever they are called..........are positioned so when the oil is flung from the crank, they catch it and it drains back into the pan. Theoretically not having too much splash back at the crank.With all that oil flinging around down there cutting down on HP.

 

thats why im going with ther windage tray free up some hp. I found the milodon im not going with the dmr kit. Im buying the full milodon stud set for the mains and then buying the windage tray. If money allows I'll buy a milodon pan and pick up. My onlu issue is do they have oil pick ups that arent bolt in. Im using a standard volume pump which should be fine as i wont really be spining this engine past 6000 rpm but that pup uses pressed in pick up. Am i stuck modifing the stock pick up or modifying a new one. I think i can do with out the oil pan baffle that bolts on the oil pump.

 

I bought an oil pan baffle from Dick Miller but ended up sending it back because it had too much slop in it and it wasn't shaped right where it butts against the back of the oil pan.

I had an all round bad experience buying a couple things from him and had to tolerate alot of insults just to get a refund.

Hopefully you will get what you paid for.

 

I might just not go with the windage tray at all. I was told that if i align bore i might have to get a special order timing set due to the crank having a diffrent ceterline. Im gonna drop my block off and talk to the machine shop see what they think. and see how much a custom timing chain would cost. What has been everyone else's experience with the align bore and needing a special timing set etc etc. I am considering doing this for the fact that im gonna build this over the course of a year so im gonna do it right but also keep budget in mind.

 

Hey Copper:

Please take the following post with the understanding that I am not trying to question your approach to our hobby, nor do I sell parts...I am just an old School Teacher who has done enough Olds stuff ( and some of it wrong ) that I have learned a few lessons.

First: You go from Windage Tray to no Windage tray then I read Stock Oil Pump but with Main Studs??!!

Please set a firm goal for your engine/car before you spend your $$$$$

You will ALWAYS need to align Hone and/or Bore when switching to main studs.

Cloyes and maybe others sell .005 to .010 shorter timing chain sets to allow for blocks that have the Crank/Cam centerlines closer together. They are not an exotic piece that costs huge dollars more nor should have a long order lead time.

Lots of Olds running fast ( 12's in street trim ) with no additional Tin in the oil pans. Use a High Volume pump with the Bolt on pick-up and your'e fine.

Spend your money on decent Heads, carefully pick a proper Cam, then back up the combo with Torque Converter and some gears. Don't forget about Tires and some suspension work for tractiion.

Leave the extra 5 horsepower of a windage tray to the guys running big $$ combos.

Hope this is helpful, I hate to see anyone waste their hard earned cash.

Danny

 

From what some people have told me I'm gonna run it stock style. I'm very indecisive and I like to get as much input as I can. Thanks for your advice. I do appreciate it. I'm just trying to do as much as I can on this engine so it can be fail proof.

 

My heads have been reworked by rocket racing no porting but everything else has been bumped up. Big valves, springs the works. Now I wanna really dump some money into the bottom end.

 

I understand. Careful machine work with attention to clearances and spotlessly clean assembly are tops on the list. I really like High Volume pumps. Cloyes timing chains, Bullet Cams, CP or ICON pistons.

Just my experience. The Post Coupe in my Sig pics ran over 450 mid 11 second passes with stock Pistons and C Heads. Careful work with GM parts can often give you great results.

Good luck and have fun

Danny

 

If John Stolpa did your Iron heads then you are set. I run Rocket Racing heads on my W-30 mid 10 second car. Talk to John about a cam as well.

Danny

 

He did. But I'm buuiding a dual duty street strip deal. I have to drive it to the track and back. So which is why I'm debating on going over board a bit for that added security but even then it could fai.

 

Be sure to use atleast a 7qt pan if going with a high volume oil pump.

Just remember SBO's spin more RPM's than a BBO, thus a HV pump will suck a stock pan dry before you get out of second gear if you are running a 3.73 or higher gear with 28" tall tires, taking in burnout and poor drain back to the pan into account.

If you calculate how many more times your number 1 piston comes to TDC during a 1/4 mile run if your engine is spinning 5800 rpm vs 6500 rpm's you'll see what I'm trying to say.

 

I already have the standard volume. I have been advised by my local olds racers on that issue.

 

I have used nothing but high volume oil pumps. I've had both stock and deep pans. A small block isn't as critical as a BB. Make sure you have oil going where it should be. What do the local guys give for a reason not to use a HV?

 

Just sucking the pan dry. More or less running the risk. Haven't had any issues stock volume pumps out 60 psi and it's eneough for what I'm doing imo.

 

That's just a myth. Can I ask how you got 60# oil pressure with a stock pump? Cold not hot I assume. Also too tight clearances?

 

That was my mistake I meant 50 psi. Been writing on my phone and the keys are small. Yeah I have never seen over 50 on stock pumps.

 

70Wcars and 380racer have a valid point. I have never seen a stock olds oil pan pumped dry on an oldsmobile with a unmodified HV melling pump. And as 70Wcars stated set your goals, plan your build accordingly, and take your time.

 

Has ANYONE ever SEEN a pan sucked dry? Wouldn't you have to be inside the motor to actually see that? lol! You guys are crazy!

 

I'm just gonna keep it simple. Thanks for all the advice guys. I like to get as much input as I can which I have gotten. I like to just toss I deas around and see what you guys think I appreciate the help and you time for posting your ideas. I'm just gonna measure everything make sure everything is in spec , clean and correct.

 

I think if you sucked it dry you would see it in your bearings. From what I read somewhere olds engines oiled the top end a lot to keep things quiet. So sucking it dry could be a possibility if that holds true but then you got people who run restrictors people who don't etc etc. Etc. I'm just throwing caution to the wind . I'm sure people say it happens for a reason. It has never happened to me and I ran the crap out of my old 350 at 6000 rpm . I was just told a long time ago when I first started dealing with olds to just stay away from the hv pump for my set up for fear of sucking the pan dry. I have never had issues with the oiling system. My last set up I spun to 6k all day and it lived untill stuff gave up lol.

 

"My last set up I spun to 6k all day and it lived untill stuff gave up lol."

So in other words it died lol!

 

Lmao yes. Mainly parts not the oiling system it worked fine. I'm pretty sure the addition of the new converter killed it. It worked fine last year and partially this year. Either that or the one time I over revved it. Dunno but it's dead now lol.

 

380 Racer is right that a small block isn't as critical as a BB because of main & rod bearing diameters are smaller than the Big Block Oldsmobiles and bearing speeds are less with the smaller diameter rod & main journals.

Lets calculate the differences between an engine turning 5800 rpm's vs 6500.

rpm=revolutions per minute
60 seconds per minute

60x106=6480rpm
60x97=5820rpm

Number 1 piston comes up to TDC 9 times more or around 8.5 percent more, not alot but the differences in bearing speeds are ......... I'll let someone else take it from here.

 

Forget about bearing speeds, you have larger journals in a BB vs a SB. Because of the added area you need more volume in order to keep the bearings cool. That's why a high volume pump is more critical in a BB, anything with larger journals.

I have a HV in my 350, with middle of the road clearances. My oil pressure is high with 10W-30 in it, 35-40psi hot at idle and 65 or better at higher rpm's. I'd feel fine with 10psi less than that. Next time I'll probably put in a standard pump and maybe shim the spring a little, I obviously don't need the extra volume/pressure of an HV pump.

 

Ok guys one more question. Dont get the wrong idea either this is my 3 engine i have built on my own and probably the most powerful one yet which is why i asking random questions as i play out my options . So i would love to go to new fastners for the mains would i have to align hone since these are new bolts with no stretch to get proper demension pre load etc. I want to keep it simple yet reliable and some what of a budget. I already have all my parts. gaskets, cam, i bought a replacement chain for my magnum timing set from comp. bearings etc. the crank has been ground now just waiting for balacing etc. anywho at this point i would not mind spending the extra cash since the engine will not be done this summer im pushing it till next summer which should give me enough time to go a little over top on the build to ensure longevity and good performance. I just wanted to give you guys an idea on how im going about this build if you guys had that time frame what would you do. 3k streched over a year is easy trying to do it in one week would be like tryign to pull my own teeth. I also have not built an engine of the caliber so to speak where i am trying to go a little over board.

 

Any why are bearing speed higher in a BB ? I believe I mentioned it's because they have larger main & rod journals.

Volume has nothing to do with pressure, the oil relief spring does.

Not if you have a stock oil pan.

 

People just don't think about the piston moving up and down 106 times per second when they are revving their engine at 6500 rpm's and those poor bearing down there saying OMG.

 

I disagree.........pressure right along with volume is needed. Ask a fireman, he needs both of 'em to get the water where he wants it, to do his job. Try a garden hose, if you don't have pressure the water ain't going very far to either wash your car or water your lawn.

In an Olds get plenty pressure/volume and restrict the top with restricted pushrods or lifter bore restrictors. Pumping too much oil up top is the problem. A GOOD oil and a stock pan will/has done just fine.

 

You see this is exactly what i like ., I get the creative juices flowing. Nick i dont think im going to go with restrictors my last junk build lasted one year but no oiling issues and it was spun to 6 k and this one wont see higher than 6 k. I think im going to run a milodon 7qt pan . I know i dont need the windage tray but if im going to wait this build one season i might just do it. I got a new job at and the hours are great the pay is good ., Not bragging but it allows me to spend a little more on this build now. I might add i work at a machine shop now machining big ring and pinion gears so all the tools mic's indiators etc, im using to ensure all the specs are right i will post all the specs when the time comes for now my machines shop is dragging but i told them no rush. I might even send my heads back to rocket racing for some porting im gonna talk to john and see if with the build i have in mind it's worth the gain. You guys have given me some really good input. This is a far strech from my previous "junk" build any info i can take in will help as im kind of stepping out of my confort zone so to speak.

 

Bearing speed is such a ridiculous topic. CutlassFI is correct, you need enough oil to keep the bearings cool. You also need the pressure to keep things from touching. In theory nothing should come in contact in that area anyway. Of course that's in a perfect world and not real world events. We all know **** happens. This is really about the shear strength of the oil film and the coefficient of friction produced by it. Once again, insignificant in relation to the total friction produced by an engine and nothing to ponder over. The friction produced in the bearing area is small (very small) in relation to other friction areas in the engine, IE. rings, valve train etc.
Some engine builders like large bearing clearances but at the same time they tighten up the rod side clearance to compensate. Others go tight but open up the rods. Which is better I don't know as many have luck either way.
Just remember with more pressure you have less volume and vice versa. Which is the equation P1V1 = P2V2. Much like the hose example above. Putting your finger over the end of the hose will increase the pressure but reduce volume.
I prefer high volume pumps for that reason. Pressure will follow and be whatever it's going to be. As long as your line bore is straight along with the crankshaft you'll be fine. Of course buzzing it to the stratosphere with stock parts is not the preferred method The faster you turn it the more things tend to bend and that's when you get bearing contact and failure. Better parts equal less flexing and bending.
Excuse me while I get off the soap box. Any time I hear bearing speed I want to scream!

 

Bearing Speed - just thought I'd make ya scream one more time lol!

So Copper, now you are going to do the windage tray? Man, my wife was more decisive when she was pregnant lol! Make up your mind damnit! You're confusing the hell out of me!

 

I will make up my mind when it's done lol

 

Well I guess if you didn't have any volume, there wouldn't be any pressure either.

Volume is good as stated for BBO's and SBO's for that matter.

Restricting the oil to the top end of the engine is very important if using a high volume oil pump in both BB & Sm blocks.

I never liked the aluminum oil restrictors Mondello sells, never used them but I know of a couple people having problem with them things moving around in the block, which blocked oil flow.

I redrilled my oil feed holes 180 degree's opposite the originals with a smaller diameter drill bit in my cam bearings and rotated them so the the originals where up top where they serve as spit holders.

If you go with main restrictors, atleast use screw in types, which are just pipe plugs with a hole drilled in them.

 

You would see the added benefits of a windage tray in a higher rpm engine.From what I have seen on the dyno,with a typical BBO,the HP gains have been about 5HP on the average.I do like to install the rear baffles in all of my stuff,to help keep the oil down in the sump,during launches.

 

shimmed HV pump

 

opps wrong post