Current options for bore and stroke in a gas 350 block
#41
If that's the case I'm sure you can find 30 hp from the engine with tuning and doing little things that add up. I started the summer running 13.09's ended up 12.60's. I did some minor things to free up hp and get the car hooking better ( electric water pump , fans and took the sway bar off for track use. And I'm still gonna dig at it. In the past I picked up almost 2 tenths with an x pipe. If its 30 hp you are after I think there is always room for improvement. The op mentioned 400 hp goals that's been done with a 355. No need to stroke it to make those goals happen. That money could be put into something else that will make power.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 08:41 AM.
#42
All I'll say is that if stroking a 403 was a good idea, there would be more guys doing it to get the extra inches, but they are not. The extra inches is not worth what you have to compromise to get them. IMHO Do a simple 380, easily make 400 HP, and be done with it. Wanting to hit the magic mark of 400 cubes just to say you did it does not make a lot of sense to me.
#43
Once again, if you do the math, it really is not very much more money. There are little hidden costs like pressing the rods, etc. So, you can have 40 year old re-conned rods with heavy slugs sitting on them or brand new stronger rods on floating pins with lighter, modern pistons and rings, plus the extra cubic inches, for only a few hundred dollars more. The extra power those extra inches cost is a VERY cost-effective decision, IMO.
#44
I was saying just run a 403 with forged slugs. No stroke. The rods and pistons and offset grinding the crank will add up. I don't see it as a minor cost. My current bottom end cost me 2k. It was a swap meet build but it was a wash as the rotating assembly was not balanced and I hd to scrap the block and use one I had. Will a stroker cost this much. I'm just trying to be realistic here. What does a short block stroked build run with cam and all that stuff.
#46
I was saying just run a 403 with forged slugs. No stroke. The rods and pistons and offset grinding the crank will add up. I don't see it as a minor cost. My current bottom end cost me 2k. It was a swap meet build but it was a wash as the rotating assembly was not balanced and I hd to scrap the block and use one I had. Will a stroker cost this much. I'm just trying to be realistic here. What does a short block stroked build run with cam and all that stuff.
OK, maybe Mark will chime in since I keep saying the same thing. What is the ADDED cost of a stroker? One more bore and offset grinding, right? Plus, you need to purchase new rods (which most guys would do anyway if replacements were available for a SBO). Pistons will be a bit more expensive but MUCH better with a better ring pack. SBC bearings can be used, maybe cheaper?? You save the $ to press the pistons off and on and recondition the rods.
So, how much extra is it? Don't forget, you get an automatic 20 ft/lbs of torque for that.
#47
I was saying just run a 403 with forged slugs. No stroke. The rods and pistons and offset grinding the crank will add up. I don't see it as a minor cost. My current bottom end cost me 2k. It was a swap meet build but it was a wash as the rotating assembly was not balanced and I hd to scrap the block and use one I had. Will a stroker cost this much. I'm just trying to be realistic here. What does a short block stroked build run with cam and all that stuff.
#48
Jim my stuff was balanced. My point was I scored the short block at a price I thought was good and hoping it was balanced. I had it balanced. Any way wr1970 I agree I'm after cheap hp. Could I tune my crap to run 11's or close sure but I like a challange so I gave my self restrictions. A comparison would be great cost vs advantage. Jim I mention my stuff because its a real world build with price vs advantage . I'm not just preaching I mean isn't that what most people want is real world results. That's why I always say dyno numbers are bs. Its all about what I actually puts down at the track.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 09:59 AM.
#49
Copper i am saying 11's not just 11.90 i am saying all the way to deep 11's depends on parts and budget! Your way of doing it i am sure you could tweak a 380 to 11.70's maybe to mid 11 with min cost and still be streetable. Why because you do your own work! Of course you would have to shop around to collect the parts!JMO
#50
I guess it comes down to options and prefrence. We all have diffrent views. Can more cubes make more power ., there is no doubt about it yes. But can certain goals be achieved with less cubes ???? That's where I would look at cost and whats the cost vs. Advantage would be what's been done. I know .,not everyone is racing the 1\4 mile but that's real world hp to the wheels at the track. So I would see what others are running ,what wheight what accesories like power steerinf a/c etc etc they have streetability issues. I don't just look at the engine but the whole package .
#51
Your argument about finding power with accessories and tuning applies to all cubic inch engines.
There's currently a 4.125 block with 3.6 stroke 330 crank on ROP for sale for $675. Seems like a fair deal if the machining was done right.
There's currently a 4.125 block with 3.6 stroke 330 crank on ROP for sale for $675. Seems like a fair deal if the machining was done right.
#52
Not much of an argument more of a statement to question \see what real world experiences are with stroker builds cost vs hp vs advantage. Guys build or have engines built have the dyno numbers but don't realize it takes power to make all that stuff work and they end up with a slow car once its said and done. Somethings are overlooked. Its all in the details as they say.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 10:52 AM.
#53
Yep that looks like a good deal if it was done right!
#54
Yeah you buy that short block and then but the heads from brownbomber77 and you are wayyyyy ahead of the game. Now that's a build I would be all over if I had the cash. Low initial investment with a lot of potential.
#55
Not everybody builds cars for the 1/4 mile. Mine is a street car, with a stiff lowered street suspension, 5-speed, low profile tires etc... Only been to the 1/4 mile with it once, ran a 13.8 @ 101.9 mph with a terrible 2.20 60ft time. I'm considering a stroker as an update, and I don't give a **** how much my ET may drop. I want more power on the street, and a light small block to match the 5-speed, and I don't want the weight of a BBO as I plan on getting into auto-crossing.
My point, different strokes (har har) for different folks.
My point, different strokes (har har) for different folks.
I have to agree with you captjim.The stroker will have more power on tap at the hit of the throttle than the stock stroke. Twenty five cubes makes a lot of difference. I think Rallye Bob used a gas block was in the tens with it. Then he changed to the motor he has now i maybe wrong hope he see this and chimes in.I know Cutlassefi will disagree with me but that is okay we talked about this on a different thread.
It's pretty simple... if you have an engine with 1 hp/ci, and you add 30 cubes, you have an easy 30 hp or lb-ft on tap, likely without having to spin the engine to a higher rpm.
On a relatively heavy street car with moderate gear and converter, cubes win. Just my .02... when talking race car, you want RPM and horsepower and the cost of streetability. All depends what someone is looking for in their car.
On a relatively heavy street car with moderate gear and converter, cubes win. Just my .02... when talking race car, you want RPM and horsepower and the cost of streetability. All depends what someone is looking for in their car.
#56
So if its gonna be a street car why not build a tq. Monster low reving 403 and have 53 more cubic inches vs 30 . People make the 403 to be weak but the truth is its been done. If its tq. And cubes you want then the 403 seems to be more appealing than a 380 stroker. The 403's have their limits but also their use. Id rather spend 1000 bucks adding lower end support to the 403 than 1000 extra bucks to just end up with 30 cubic inches vs the 403's 53 cubic inches. That's just my logic . Bang for the buck vs cost and capability. Not saying the stroker is a bad idea but after what's been mentioned , the use what's expected it seems like the 403 would yeild much more tq.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 01:44 PM.
#57
So if its gonna be a street car why not build a tq. Monster low reving 403 and have 53 more cubic inches vs 30 . People make the 403 to be weak but the truth is its been done. If its tq. And cubes you want then the 403 seems to be more appealing than a 380 stroker. The 403's have their limits but also their use. Id rather spend 1000 bucks adding lower end support to the 403 than 1000 extra bucks to just end up with 30 cubic inches vs the 403's 53 cubic inches. That's just my logic . Bang for the buck vs cost and capability. Not saying the stroker is a bad idea but after what's been mentioned , the use what's expected it seems like the 403 would yeild much more tq.
It is nowhere near $1,000 more to build a stroker, which will be MUCH stronger than a 403 with a girdle. Also, 409 (403 bored) minus 380 (stroker cubes) is 29, not 53 ci. 403s are not that easy to build correctly.
#58
I was figuring a stock bore forged piston jim . And I was comparing a stock bore 350 to a 403. And a 380 to a 350 cubic inch wise. So the 403 has 53 cubes on the 350 and the 380 has 30 over the 350 sorry about the confusion. Now the thing to think about is the strength gonna be an issue with its use ???? Like I said many guys have built 403's for the strip with the halo and they live. I know a stroker won't cost 1000 bucks more perhaps 500 more with the work and what not., but you do have 23 cubes over the 380 with a 403 . I know strength is an issue but the limitations have been know for a long time . I get where you are coming from but if its never gonna see high rpms why not build a grunt engine from a 403. I would not hesitate to build a 403 but yet again I won't hesitate to go against the grain .
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 02:11 PM.
#61
Jim maybe I worded that wrong but I meant I would rather put 1000 bucks into the halo in a 403 that build a 380 fully knowing a stroker would be about 500 bucks or so extra. But if you build a a stock bore 403 you save money on the boring . You might spend let's say 500 more on the halo set up than going stroker but you save 180 not having to bore it and just hone it for forged pistons that means you spent 320 more than a stroked but ended up with 23 more cubes.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 02:18 PM.
#64
#65
IF a decent SBO replacement rod and decent 350 SBO pistons were readily available, I might agree with you. But, they are not. So, by "stroking" you not only gain the inches, you get far superior parts, more cubes, more TQ and more HP for a minimal investment.
#67
Don just made my point in what I said earlier in the thread for an hp build I would do a stroker . I feel with what's been done the 403 can handle a certain amount of abuse and I wouldn't hestate to build one with what's been done with them . Guys keep talking about fast on the street well on the street you drive tq.
#68
I quit posting here for quite a while, now I remember why. Adios.
#69
that's why I said you don't need a stroker to build 400 hp. Its been done with a streetable 355 so a stroker is kind of something I see as unneccessary to build that kind of power that's my opinion about a stroker for something that can be done with no real extra work. He already has a 355 why not build upon that to achieve the goals. I'm sorry that my views on stuff are not what most would agree to but I'll be honest about it. If you want a stroker that's cool but unneccesarry for the goals that have been mentioned.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 02:56 PM.
#70
What captjim is getting at is copper you have made this more of your build instead of what the op is asking which is a stroked small block options not a 355. Don already stated he would rather have a 380ci for a reason!! Your combo works good for you we got that. A 380 is much better. Again this is JMO and several agree.
#71
Don agreed to the 380 for hp. Hp lives in the higher rpms which are never seen on the street . I'm looking at cost but I'm not gonna beat a dead horse . This isn't about my build I used it as an example on how a simple 355 can perform very well and it does not need to be stroked or any special crap to make the goals mentioned happen. I'm sorry but I see it as waste when its not needed for the application . This is what happens when people drink the kool aid. Have you built a stroker??? I mean who here has actually built a stroker ????? Perhaps you have but What I have built is a 355 that when the numbers are plugged in I make 370 hp and according to others I'm leaving hp on the table but I won't sacrifice the streetability and I will find ways to make it faster. We have had many members have stroker builds built with dyno numbers but what about at the track where its actually put to the test ???? I haven't seen so many so I go based of my experiences. If my little basic 355 built with old stuff and hand me downs makes appx 370 hp at the fly based on track numbers and is very comfortable to drive on the street 400 should be easy with a bit of attention in the areas I did not do anything to like porting ,or carb tuning or any major tuning for that matter . So why is a stroker needed ????? When its been proven a street reliable 400 hp 355 can be built ???? That's my point.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 05:04 PM.
#72
Don agreed to the 380 for hp. Hp lives in the higher rpms which are never seen on the street . I'm looking at cost but I'm not gonna beat a dead horse . This isn't about my build I used it as an example on how a simple 355 can perform very well and it does not need to be stroked or any special crap to make the goals mentioned happen. I'm sorry but I see it as waste when its not needed for the application.
#73
What is there to loose. What really is the loss. Can you measure on the street the loss between a 380 and 355. You really need all that to go to the dairy queen or the local cruise night. I may have the power on tap but I don't drive the car any diffrent than my daily driver. No need to really.
Last edited by coppercutlass; October 30th, 2015 at 05:09 PM.
#74
Guys always say they want "torque this" and "torque that". Torque is just a piece of the puzzle, not the end all be all. I want power, not torque (Power= tq x RPM). If I wanted torque, I'd go build a big block.
And if I wanted power out of that big block, well, then its time to shell out some coin so it can spin some RPMs. Otherwise, all you end up with is a stump puller with massive amounts of torque down low....
...and as I mentioned, if that was my goal, I'd go get myself a Peterbuilt and start hauling freight around the countryside. I would communicate via CB all day long and stop at run down truck stops shooing away lot lizards.
So, to the OP of this thread.....I would say this:
If 400hp is your goal, a stroker engine is not needed, but is always good to have. I would build a nice 374 stroker or something like that so as to keep the costs in check. The cost of trying to adapt a 425 crank in a small block would be stupid money for such modest goals.
I'd stroke the 330 crank to 3.5" and bore to 4.125" for good pistons/ring pack and have some fun. A modest port job on some irons will net you well over 400hp with the proper cam and will be completely streetable.
#75
Horsepower always wins. If you are just cruising on the street, a 305 chevy will get you from point a to b.
Guys always say they want "torque this" and "torque that". Torque is just a piece of the puzzle, not the end all be all. I want power, not torque (Power= tq x RPM). If I wanted torque, I'd go build a big block.
And if I wanted power out of that big block, well, then its time to shell out some coin so it can spin some RPMs. Otherwise, all you end up with is a stump puller with massive amounts of torque down low....
...and as I mentioned, if that was my goal, I'd go get myself a Peterbuilt and start hauling freight around the countryside. I would communicate via CB all day long and stop at run down truck stops shooing away lot lizards.
So, to the OP of this thread.....I would say this:
If 400hp is your goal, a stroker engine is not needed, but is always good to have. I would build a nice 374 stroker or something like that so as to keep the costs in check. The cost of trying to adapt a 425 crank in a small block would be stupid money for such modest goals.
I'd stroke the 330 crank to 3.5" and bore to 4.125" for good pistons/ring pack and have some fun. A modest port job on some irons will net you well over 400hp with the proper cam and will be completely streetable.
Guys always say they want "torque this" and "torque that". Torque is just a piece of the puzzle, not the end all be all. I want power, not torque (Power= tq x RPM). If I wanted torque, I'd go build a big block.
And if I wanted power out of that big block, well, then its time to shell out some coin so it can spin some RPMs. Otherwise, all you end up with is a stump puller with massive amounts of torque down low....
...and as I mentioned, if that was my goal, I'd go get myself a Peterbuilt and start hauling freight around the countryside. I would communicate via CB all day long and stop at run down truck stops shooing away lot lizards.
So, to the OP of this thread.....I would say this:
If 400hp is your goal, a stroker engine is not needed, but is always good to have. I would build a nice 374 stroker or something like that so as to keep the costs in check. The cost of trying to adapt a 425 crank in a small block would be stupid money for such modest goals.
I'd stroke the 330 crank to 3.5" and bore to 4.125" for good pistons/ring pack and have some fun. A modest port job on some irons will net you well over 400hp with the proper cam and will be completely streetable.
#76
Here is the deal, you can obviously build a strong 355 using old stock rods, heavy pistons, and crappy rings and make it run. You did it, I have done it, many, many others have as well. You can also spend a few dollars more (around $500 +/-) and have lighter pistons, stronger rods, a MUCH better ring pack and 25 more cubic inches. These upgrades along with extra inches will yield another 30 HP or so as well as being stronger (better rods, lighter pitons) on the bottom end.
Again, neither path is right or wrong, but for you to say it is a "waste" because you are cheap is close-minded, IMO. It is up to each guy to spend his money the way he see's fit. But this whole attitude that Oldsmobile enthusiasts have is one reason that so few products come to market for us. If you think that is BS, ask around to the guys who know. They make a block for Buick and AMC, we can't even get a replacement connecting rod.
#77
I get your guy's point of view. I have my own twisted ways of doing things . Do we need more aftrmarket stuff yeah we do. Do we have some options yes. We obviously all have diffrent opinions. I'm not cheap for the sake of being cheap but 500 bucks is a big chunk of my mortgage or bills so I not only look at it from a hobby prespective but financial. Are the stock rods the best no but will they hold up ., yes . We do have better options in pistons that the speed pros. Current build I'm working on has the probes they are light compared to the speed pros and have a better ring pack. He already has a 355 why not build upon that ???? All he probably needs is some good head work , a carefully chosen cam for the build and all that good stuff. I can explain my thought process but that's getting way away from the point. You guys ain't wrong and I ain't either because it can be done on both ends goal wise.
Last edited by coppercutlass; November 1st, 2015 at 08:43 AM.
#78
winner
Not sure that remark was necessary, why go insulting people? It is all opinions, there is no "right or wrong" way. You like doing everything as cheaply as possible, but your way is not the only way.
Here is the deal, you can obviously build a strong 355 using old stock rods, heavy pistons, and crappy rings and make it run. You did it, I have done it, many, many others have as well. You can also spend a few dollars more (around $500 +/-) and have lighter pistons, stronger rods, a MUCH better ring pack and 25 more cubic inches. These upgrades along with extra inches will yield another 30 HP or so as well as being stronger (better rods, lighter pitons) on the bottom end.
Again, neither path is right or wrong, but for you to say it is a "waste" because you are cheap is close-minded, IMO. It is up to each guy to spend his money the way he see's fit. But this whole attitude that Oldsmobile enthusiasts have is one reason that so few products come to market for us. If you think that is BS, ask around to the guys who know. They make a block for Buick and AMC, we can't even get a replacement connecting rod.
Here is the deal, you can obviously build a strong 355 using old stock rods, heavy pistons, and crappy rings and make it run. You did it, I have done it, many, many others have as well. You can also spend a few dollars more (around $500 +/-) and have lighter pistons, stronger rods, a MUCH better ring pack and 25 more cubic inches. These upgrades along with extra inches will yield another 30 HP or so as well as being stronger (better rods, lighter pitons) on the bottom end.
Again, neither path is right or wrong, but for you to say it is a "waste" because you are cheap is close-minded, IMO. It is up to each guy to spend his money the way he see's fit. But this whole attitude that Oldsmobile enthusiasts have is one reason that so few products come to market for us. If you think that is BS, ask around to the guys who know. They make a block for Buick and AMC, we can't even get a replacement connecting rod.
#79
Don agreed to the 380 for hp. Hp lives in the higher rpms which are never seen on the street . I'm looking at cost but I'm not gonna beat a dead horse . This isn't about my build I used it as an example on how a simple 355 can perform very well and it does not need to be stroked or any special crap to make the goals mentioned happen. I'm sorry but I see it as waste when its not needed for the application . This is what happens when people drink the kool aid. Have you built a stroker??? I mean who here has actually built a stroker ????? Perhaps you have but What I have built is a 355 that when the numbers are plugged in I make 370 hp and according to others I'm leaving hp on the table but I won't sacrifice the streetability and I will find ways to make it faster. We have had many members have stroker builds built with dyno numbers but what about at the track where its actually put to the test ???? I haven't seen so many so I go based of my experiences. If my little basic 355 built with old stuff and hand me downs makes appx 370 hp at the fly based on track numbers and is very comfortable to drive on the street 400 should be easy with a bit of attention in the areas I did not do anything to like porting ,or carb tuning or any major tuning for that matter . So why is a stroker needed ????? When its been proven a street reliable 400 hp 355 can be built ???? That's my point.
Last edited by wr1970; November 1st, 2015 at 09:41 AM.
#80
That came off totally wrong on my end . I want truth in numbers not what can be done or even dyno numbers. By a waste that comment was based on what I would do not what can be done or what's best. I'm not doubting the 380 can make more power. I don't wanna be the fastest that's been done and overdone. I wanna be the fastest withing certain restraints because anyone can throw parts and money at the situation . Can my car go faster with more gear sure it can but I'm gonna do it by other methods to prove a point. That's what I kinda do.