Dan Wirth

1. I don't like it when the owner of a paint & body shop tells me that it's going to cost $5500 for a great paint job and it doesn't include painting under the hood.

2. I don't like it when the same guy says he wants me to participate in the process by checking in with him (come into his shop) 2-3 times a week to make sure everything he's doing is what is expected (although I may want to stop in once and awhile to check things out).

My sense here is that the owner of the shop wants no hassles later on with any decisions that he makes that will "up" the bill. (A "nickle and dime" approach to doing business, and also an indicator that customers in the past have not been happy with some of his decisions that "upped" the bill).

3. I don't like that this guy wants the car left for a month or more to do the work, when he is in a non-busy period (or so he says).

Just how long should it take to do a non-insurance paid job...it's pretty obvious to me that privately funded jobs are taking a back seat to those that are insurance paid.

4. I don't like that this guy said to drop in anytime and he would give a thorough estimate and evaluation - put the car up on a hoist, search for all rust and let me know the worth of proceeding with paint & body work of the highest caliber. And then cut corners on this estimate/evaluation by just looking the car (which is 38 years old) over superficially - off the hoist.

I smell a rat!!

Nilsson

So the paint job only is the 5500? Well you have to start somewhere so looking the car over superficially is that place. Don't worry once he gets it stripped down naked and says it will be another 4500.00 for body work it will get to that 10,000.00 show car finish.

Not passing judgement on the man don't know him and I don't really understand if the 5500.00 is for paint or paint and body. If it is paint and body no way that cheap rarely get a real good paint job for that price.

442garage

1. Although I would want the underside of my hood included in the price of the restoration, I must tell you that here in Washington state, $5500.00 would not come close to a complete paint and body work . 12-15,000.00 is more the norm.
2. A lot of shops discourage drop ins so my take on this is he wants you to feel comfortable with the work that he is going to be doing on your car.
3. Having a car for a month is definitely not that unusual, A full restoration, body off frame can take several years.
4. My take on putting the car up on the rack is to see if there are any hidden rust issues that he's not seeing with the initial assessment. I might add that there are several guys on here that do body and paint and can chime in with their perspective, Eddy Hansen comes to mind, Gearheads78 aka Richard and others. Bottom line, if you don't trust that he will do the job that you want, find someone else that shares your vision!

gearheads78

Les is right. 5500.00 will barley pay for materials on a good quality paint job. The shop I worked at in my late teens was getting 12K-15K on paint and body work almost 20 years ago.

The fact that he wants you to stop in all the time is good. 1 month is nothing as far as time. 6-12 months is pretty much the norm. (yes I know they do it in 7 days on TV)

What you need to know is what are you after. Most good shops will not do anything other than an complete strip to metal. It just does not make since to stand behind your work on top of someone elses.

ent72olds

Actually, I have to say, $5500 is CHEAP! I WOULD WANT TO CHECK IN a couple times a week at that price! Make sure he ISN'T giving you what you are paying for! The shop sounds on the up and up to me. The guy is asking you to check-in for that exact reason, he WANTS you to be happy! Most shops don't want you around to see the short cuts they are taking! And he wants to put it on a lift and go through the car with you.....can I get the guy's #! Offer him another grand to do the underhood, and he'll be your best friend!

Dan Wirth

That was another thing, the owner told me that there would be no stripping the car to metal; that he would be "feathering the paint down with a good sanding job" and that if I wanted the car stripped down to metal (or powder blasted) down to metal, it would cost much more. The reason is because of all the faults he expected to find by someone elses previous work. This car is a VW Bug by the way, easily dis-assembled in comparison to the larger cars, with considerably less surface area (I should have mentioned that earlier, but am more concerned about the experience rather than the car itself).

I do agree with you that $5500 is a decent price for a good paint job - no question about it, (it's not a restoral per se - but there will be some minor body work and rust that needs to be corrected - also included in that price).

To me, it's more about the service aspects that I have a concern - whether or not this shop will be providing "good" quality service with that paint job. The owner made it sound like there are too many unknowns to give a completely honest estimate. The car was left 1/2 day for the estimate. I believe that some of those unknowns could have been removed had the car been put up on the rack as previously promised. And I do understand that you can't see everything until the car is taken apart, sanded, re-inspected, etc.

By the way...in no way do I want to insult anyone who does paint and body work for a living. And I do appreciate their hard work and will especially welcome and respect their professional views and comments.

Thanks for all your replies - I am starting to lighten-up a little on this issue from your comments. The rat that I smell is starting to smell a bit better. (Some of this may be in my head, as I really hate getting ripped-off...even a little bit).

gearheads78

A bug is a little different story do to surface area and the fact the lifting it up is not going to tell you much more than you already know. If it needs pans that not part of the paint work and the fenders are on the outside and single layer so its not like you can see any more looking under the fenders. Pull the windows, bumpers, trim , and fender welting yourself to save some tear down time. Since its not a complete strip and would just find someone to do a scuff and shoot. On a bug with minimal body work you should be able to get a decent job done 3000-3500

If you decide to strip it and find lots of metal work needed you can easily spend just as much asa big car. Check out the SAMBA web site dedicated to air cooled VWs. You might find someone in your area that restores just VWs

Dan Wirth

If you decide to strip it and find lots of metal work needed you can easily spend just as much asa big car. Check out the SAMBA web site dedicated to air cooled VWs. You might find someone in your area that restores just VWs[/quote]

$3500 is kind of what I was expecting, and a scuff and shoot (as you call it) may be all there is to it. Hopefully so any way. Am taking the car to another shop to see their point of view.

Thanks for your comment!
Dan

My442

It never ceases to amaze me that anyone would drop their car off at a body shop without a WRITTEN agreement on:

1. What will be done
2. How it will be done
3. When it will be done
4. How will contingencies be handled?
5. What materials will be used?

I shopped around for 8 months until I found a shop that would sign a written agreement.

I know many people who dropped their car off for $4,000 paint job, and ended up paying 3-4X more.

A verbal agreement is not worth the paper it is printed on.

Dan Wirth

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Good point, but I haven't yet dropped the car off to be worked on yet and won't until I am thoroughly satisfied with whom I've selected to do the P&B work. I hope it doesn't takes 8 months to find a shop, but with costs as they are, a person needs to be careful - I'm still looking for the right shop, and I'm sure I'll find it, but am going to take my time about it... It'll sure help when I'm told what can be done to make this project happen, rather than the negatives to the work and what can't be done (which is kind of what was said). My thought when visiting this shop and all was said was: "okay, okay already - uncle, uncle!"

Thanks for your reply.
Dan

jensenracing77

there is a local paint and body shop here that i took my 72 cutlass to just for an appraisal. it is an original paint rust free car, all but the passenger front finder. they said they would never take an original paint rust free car down to bare metal. they have painted $100K+ cars and figure they would know what they are doing. i ask the guy that i had do paint work for me before and he said the same thing. i don't know if your car is like this or not but just wanted to add what they told me.

Dan Wirth

-----------------------------------------

Thanks for your comment.

This car has been painted some years ago - with a relatively cheap paint job. So there is a cheap paint job on top of the original factory paint. Taking the car down to metal may not be necessary, but what really concerns me about that is the 2nd layer (cheap) paint, so the sanding job will need to be very detailed with a primer coat applied. This car is not rust free, but the rust does not appear to be severe, except for the battery floor plate (part corrosion/rust), but degree of rust on the car as a whole still needs to be determined by a pro.

ent72olds

Don't forget Dan, if the shop is planning on painting over an existing paint job, there are no guarantees! Like I tell everyone, painting is like building a house, if the foundation is no good, the house can be the prettiest house on the block, the house will crumble! I did not realize the car was a bug when I first posted on this thread. At $5500, the car should probably be stripped, give or take $500...of course, once it's stripped, you could open Pandora's Box! Hence the price drastically going up to repair correctly. Better to know now than later I think! It is very difficult to give a pinpoint estimate on a car that has been repainted as you don't know what could be lurking! A car with original paint on the other hand is much more forgiving!

J-(Chicago)

Original paint or not, if the lacquer is checked anywhere, there will be rust underneath. You could sand it all smooth, but moisture has already compromised the foundation.

Dan Wirth

-----------------------------------------

I agree about knowing now what may be there and dealing with it rather than the alternative. I have a lead on a reputable shop that I will be going to this week. It is understandable that a pin point estimate is non-realistic; hopefully, there will be a can do approach to the job that will make the shop visit worthwhile. It's simply in the attitude or correct frame of mind of the shop that will sell me best. It's not all about the money...well, not entirely anyway!

Thanks Erik,
Dan

Dan Wirth

I was wondering about that, and also if the original factory paint is a lacquer paint, how would the new acrylic enamel or BC/CC hold up? I think that a complete stripping down to metal may be the way to go. I think what you are saying is that there are no options to this.

Thanks for your reply,
Dan

J-(Chicago)

If you want a perfect paint job, soda blasting the whole car down to metal is a good idea.

If you just sand all the old stuff, it might last 10, or 50 years. Depending on how well it's sealed. No way to tell.
Kind of like rolling the dice and hoping for the best.

I wish I had taken more pics of my trunk lid. The lid looked perfect, (aside from the checked lacquer)
with no rust. When I sanded it down to bare metal, there were tiny rust pits everywhere, and I ended up sandblasting and acid etching it.
What could have been a 30 dollar respray job at mAAco, ended up taking me 4 or 5 days do do it right.

Look at paint jobs like buying a new car. What will work best for what you're doing?
You could get a Geo Metro base model, or a jet powered Lambroghini.

But will they work for what you're doing?

Eddie Hansen

I am no expert, not even close, I am not even a good amateur

I don't know if you want to do any work yourself, but it seems like you can easily take the fenders, hoods off a bug and have them media blasted yourself, I think this is what I will do with my cutlass, I need to put the quarters on, and after that there won't be much left to strip on the main body, and I think the next thing to do would be to take the fenders, hood trunk lid and doors to have them media blasted and primed, I saw these guys in jersey and it seems the cleanest way to go.

http://bestblastofnj.net/whatismediablasting.html

as for the price of the paint job, I really have not been in touch with pros for years my head spins every time people throw out numbers it is like they are talking about monopoly money..

if you had all the big items stripped etc and they are in good shape maybe you could save a ton of money finding a guy who will spray the parts after and do the assembly yourself? is maaco out of the question? or is spraying it yourself out of the question?

there seems to be a ton of replacement parts available and the prices look pretty darn good compared to an oldsmobile
http://www.vwparts.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?

Dan Wirth

Knowing what you want to use your car for is #1 in setting a goal for a paint job - I think J-Chicago is right. The car will used as a part time every day driver, but would like to take it to our local Saturday eve car shows, as well. It will not be easy driving it daily and worrying about that $5500 paint job - sort of like buying that new car...

Also, doing as much of the physical strip down as possible is probably a #2 goal. Also buying all the rubber body seals and gaskets, fenders, bumpers, bumper mounts, etc. is also being considered.

Thanks Eddie for the leads.

Thanks for your replies.
Dan

84 rocket

bugs can hide a bunch of rust in the heater chanels that without taking the body of the pan you would never find it also under the doors in the door seams and the door hinges pillars and ect 5500 is cheap my friend spent that much on paint for his mustang(fords suck imo) and he works for a ppg dist

Dan Wirth

--------------------------------------------------------

I knew about the rust produced by the door hinge pillars, especially if the caps are off off them, The heater panels are something I'll have to check out.

Thanks for the info.
Dan

Olds64

I think $5500 is a decent price for paint; however, like others said you have to know for sure what the shop is providing. My442 has a good point, having everything in writing up front is the sure fire way to do business.

I've done alot of reading on painting and have been pretty bummed by what I hear. It seems most people think you need to spend $10k+ on a paint job to have a decent car.

Ultimately, you have to ask yourself what the car is and how much you want to spend. Oldsguy spent less than $5500 on the body work on his 69 Delta 88 when I was in college. And it turned out great:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...to.php/photo/5

Of course, it was a local mom and pop shop. They sprayed it with BC/CC. The paint held up well being parked outside for 5 years until Oldsguy sold the car. The body work had bondo in it and wouldn't win a Barret Jackson auction but it looked great at a local cruise in and show and shine.

68Tom

Dan--

A couple things here, a few of which have already been stated by others:

1) If you're spending even $2,000 on a paint job, I'd strip it down to bare metal. Point being, $2,000 is still a lot of money, and if there is ANY chance the paint might lift, there's no point in spending that much. $5000 is even more money...you get my point.

If there's anything I've learned restoring a couple cars is, it's absolutely not worth cutting corners. It'll end up costing you 2-3X's as much in the long run.

If you don't go down to bare metal, chances of having paint adhesion or rust/bondo problems are fairly high. You have no idea what kind of paint was underneath. I mean, you obviously can risk it, but if it's an old paint job and there's lacquer under there, you're gonna have problems.

Plus, there's the bondo factor and any untold sections that need some rust repair (if it's an East Coast car. heck, even West Coast sometimes)

2) Cost of paint, a decent paint at least, will run at least $600. So, you have to factor that into the cost.

3) If all the guy is going to do is scuff the paint underneath, why don't you scuff it yourself, have him just shoot the base and clear, and then buff out the clear coat yourself? You'll save a ton of money. It takes some time, but isn't exactly difficult.

4) The points you brought up about the shop--I found most of them to be a POSITIVE thing. Hell, I would have been happy to have been around my car that often (I've been restoring them out of town, so my time with the car is limited).

Also, a month in the shop for paint and clear isn't a ton of time. It depends on the paint system being used and the method the painted likes using. Some like letting the paint settle before spraying the clear. This takes some time.

All in all, I always think it's a good idea to check with a few other places regarding prices, methods, etc. A good way to go is go to a local car show and check out the paint jobs on the cars. Pick a few you like and ask them where it was painted, prices, etc. A little bit of legwork will go a long way.

At the end of the day, I still think you're best off going down to bare metal. This way you can address any issues that might arise, and, take care of any sections that need reworking or massaging.

Just my 2 cents.... Hope it helps some.

68Tom

Dan, sent you a PM....

My442

I had my 70 442 painted in 2001. It is a west coast car with no rust, dents or body damage.

What I wanted was a nice paint job that would hold up. There was one repaint over the factory paint. Before I took the car into the shop, I wrote a contract that specified evrything I wanted done, when it was to be done, and the materials.

I then stripped out the interior, removed all the trim and bumpers, and dropped the car off. The shop sanded the body down to original paint, sealed it, primed it, and did a BC/CC paint job. They did all the jambs, including the trunk. They even painted under the hood, and did the OAI hood stripes.

The paint system is DuPont ChromaBase, and I have pictures posted here.

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being Barret/Jackson, I would say the paint job is a 8.5. It looks as good today as when I had it done.

All that work above cost me $3200 cash.

But, it took me 8 months of searching to find a good shop that was trustworthy and would sign a contract.

So, the moral of the story is:

1. Wriye a contract
2. Do as much of the work as you can
3. Use quality materials

And, start with the best body you can. Cheaper and better in the long run.

Dan Wirth

So, the moral of the story is:

1. Write a contract
2. Do as much of the work as you can
3. Use quality materials

And, start with the best body you can. Cheaper and better in the long run.[/quote]
==============================================

I agree with 1-3 above - and good advice. I can see why it can take a long time in looking for the right shop. I do not want to proceed until comfortable with whom I'm doing business. Today I spoke with another P&B shop. The common denominator seems to be, at very least, buy the complete seal and gasket kit for the car and have it ready.

An estimate is not a contract - is the other thing that I feel can trap someone who embarks on this type work. However, it can be turned into a contract, if all agree.

Quality materials are important, and preparation is also key. I liked one shop that stated that "if there's any rust, we won't be painting over it, as we can't guarantee our work".

Thanks for your reply, it was well put!
Dan

Dan Wirth

================================================

Thanks 68Tom, for your reply. It was very well said. (by the way Calif cars can be rusty too - especially the ones that reside near the ocean and salt air).

The shops I've visited so far have not solicited they would be taking the car down to bare metal. It seems almost like a plea that I must convince them to do (which seems odd to me). And then when I bring it up - it becomes a major expense item (understandably). Unfortunately I lack the facilities in doing it myself or I would probably attempt it Today I took this car into another shop and I am interested in hearing what they have to say (tomorrow). I have another lead for high quality shop as well, and will continue the quest until there is one that suits me and can answer all the issues for the older car. I agree now that $5500 is a fair price for P&B work. It may even be more than fair.

Just for the halibit, I visited a Maaco the other day to see what for. These shops are individually owned (franchised, I think) and I was impressed by how "can do" they were. They showed me a BC/CC painted truck that looked pretty darn good. I was surprised at the price they quoted (much higher than expected for what is considered as a lower price-ended paint shop). They quick quoted $3500 for just the paint and superficial body work (rust elimination work would be extra, as well as seal & gasket parts). Sounds to me like when all is said and done, it would work out to be about $5500 mark (it seems like it's kind of the magic number around here....even for the lower price-ended shops).

As for the local car shows, paint jobs (and body work) are mostly expensive (my experience so far). I was talking to a Chevelle LS owner who spent $25000 on his along with doing $15000 in bartering work. His total price was $40K. The car however, is flawless and the finest paint job I've ever laid my eyes on. This car is also worth spending the money on - saw one sell on Mecums for $135K. However, I am still keeping an eye out at the shows for much much much less pricey P&B work.

Thanks again for your reply and excellent advice.
Dan

Dan Wirth

--------------------------------------------

Great story. I would like to find that kind of neighborhood mom and pop shop. Do they still exist in a big city?? Maybe it would be worth going to the out back (as in desert town) somewhere away from here and find one. I recently found one for some mechanical work and it was the best car experience ever!

Thanks,
Dan

Olds64

Definitely some good information on this post. You can always get a seal and rubber kit from Kanter, Steel Rubber, or Softseal and install it yourself after the paint is done. This would save you some additional money.

68Tom

Dan, are you in the Phoenix area?

J-(Chicago)

I'll Rustoleum it for 200 bucks and a 6 pack of beer.
You can have safety yellow, Handicapped parking spot blue,Hunter green, or Stop sign red.

Dan Wirth

Yes...but don't mind traveling a bit if it's worth it.

68Tom

I take it you didn't get my PM?

Head over to Ricky's Customs & Restorations. His shop is in Apache Junction. Not only is he more reasonable than most high end shops, but his work is on par with, if not better than others. His # is 480-677-5191. Tell him I sent you.

My 442 is currently there for final assembly. While he didn't paint it, he's done a great job getting all the doors and everything else aligned. At some point in the future, he will be putting new quarters and few other things on my '69 Camaro.

He'll do what you request, and will throw in what he would recommend doing. Once you get the car media blasted, he will then be able to give you a good estimate on how much work your car will require to get it straight, fix rust damage, etc. (I also went elsewhere to have my 442 media blasted and it ended up costing me more money than what Rick's guy charges--he did my Camaro, so I know)

In any event, after several problems with other people and shops, I've been more than pleased with his work. If you want to check out the Aug issue of Hot Rod, he did the blue Shelby Mustang in there.

Tom

Dan Wirth

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Thanks for the lead Tom. Still not sure about media blasting this car - I know it is the best way to go, but it may be overkill - need to still weigh all the variables, as well as expense for this daily driver. I will be glad to tell Ricky's you sent me. Apache Junction is on my side of town, so fairly convenient.

Thanks again,
Dan

Oldsmobilliam

I had no idea a paint job would be soooooooo much! What about if its only been painted once, at the factory, and one wishes to keep it the same color?

Dan Wirth

----------------------------------------------------

Yep, it was a rude awakening alright; the last time I got a paint job (no body work) was in 1987 on a 69 Chevy Impala. It cost me about $1500, cheap by today's standards, unless you get a low end paint job - not recommended).

There is no single big reason paint jobs are so high (in my view). I think inflation has a lot to do with it; but it's more than that. Most every shop I've visited lately uses a PC to count every single item of the work (time/labor/materials) to be performed. This adds the bill up "expensively". Lets say a really decent paint job is $3000-4000. And I'm sure this price differs as to where you live. You can expect an hourly rate any where from $50-100 an hour for body and rust work (depending on the shop), plus materials. (I hope this helps in answering your immediate question).

Getting back to the PC in shop cost estimating. Many P&B shops today are using programs that are set up to capture time, labor and materials expense - cradle to grave. I can remember, not too long ago, where a person would come look my car over and give me an estimate based on what was needed and experience level in getting the job done. This was probably a fairly inconsistent approach to doing business, but I sure liked it better - more personable I think.

We accept the PC calculations because it captures the process & expenses along the way; however, I think it is very important to make sure you look over that process carefully and question a step you see that seems odd, is not well explained, missed, or listed multiple times and not understood. If there is a discrepancy found, it is likely to be a PC/program fault...but in my opinion, if the shop is going to use a PC, they should always double check for accuracy.

IMHO, a good shop would not leave it up to the customer to do their quality control.

Hope this helps.
Dan

PS. Keeping the car the same color as your factory original color can be cheaper because you may get by without painting door jams, under hoods, wells, etc. But if those areas are in need of paint, I would not worry too much about changing the color, as long as the original paint was dealt with properly (please see previous posts and threads that go more into this - lots of good, sound and varied views).

AZ Rocket88man

I am a paint spray booth contractor, and have sold booths in AZ full time for 22 years. Having a car painted is a major ***-ache no matter where you are located. Production shops are not the place to take a collector type car for a paint job. Their main customers are the insurance companies, and they must keep them happy. They do those jobs first, and the paint job is on the back burner.
I have had 8-10 cars painted the last few years in the Phoenix and Tucson areas. The last one, a Flame Orange '72 Cutlass with white vinyl top was done at CAM Auto Creations on Cave Creek in Phoenix. They did it in 2 weeks last fall, and did a beautiful job. I sold it to a guy in Maryland and he recently won the best GM car in a big show, beating out over 200 other GM cars including Corvettes, and got best paint too. They are a Mom and Pop shop. Call Alan and tell him I told you to stop in. He and his wife Cheryl are there every day and are nice people. They repaired 2 flaws and one scratch I did while assembling the car, for no charge, and no problems. They did the repairs in 2 days.
Your VW has a very high quality German enamel from the factory, probably Glasurit brand. It is great paint, if it is still on the car. If you have a dry AZ car, and want to make it a driver without spending a fortune, there is probably no need to strip it. The paint shop should be able to scuff it down to the original paint, assess its condition and put a primer and sealer on it before a BC/CC job. If it is a stock, non -metallic color a quality single stage urethane will suffice, especially if it is garaged.
If you decide to have it stripped, go to Enviro Stripping, near I 17 and Central, on the north side service road. Doug is the owner. Super nice guy, and very honest. He has stripped 5 or 6 cars for me the last few years. I have sent other guys too and they have had Hurst Olds, Corvettes, etc done and are very happy.

Make sure you tell Alan and doug I sent you. They will take good care of you.

Joe Varley OCA #1448 Southwest Zone Director
Scottsdale, AZ.

Dan Wirth

You can say that again Joe!

I will be looking into that Cave Creek lead and I appreciate you providing it -and will mention you to them. I don't think the VW will be stripped down at this point, and it was good to know about it's original paint, as you mentioned.

Thanks again,
Dan