Under body paint?
January 27th, 2012, 06:12 AM
#2
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You're in ON so you "should" be able to get some Sico corrostop at your local home depot. That's what i used on all my suspension/frame/otherrustedcrap parts.
You can even use the red oxide primer from them before you lay it down. it dries to a powdercoat like finish and is REALLY durable (we used it on our tractors for many years up north)
You can even use the red oxide primer from them before you lay it down. it dries to a powdercoat like finish and is REALLY durable (we used it on our tractors for many years up north)
January 27th, 2012, 08:45 AM
#4
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You're in ON so you "should" be able to get some Sico corrostop at your local home depot. That's what i used on all my suspension/frame/otherrustedcrap parts.
You can even use the red oxide primer from them before you lay it down. it dries to a powdercoat like finish and is REALLY durable (we used it on our tractors for many years up north)
You can even use the red oxide primer from them before you lay it down. it dries to a powdercoat like finish and is REALLY durable (we used it on our tractors for many years up north)
January 27th, 2012, 09:20 AM
#6
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We painted lots of dune buggies, lawn tractors, and in fact i got them to mix a whole pale of bamboo for me and i painted my car with it. No rocks are gonna chip my paintjob
January 27th, 2012, 09:35 AM
#7
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Yup. As long as you cover EVERYTHING.
If you only get one side, it can still rust from the OTHER side, which is why it's great for frames, where you can get both sides.
We painted a rusty trailer frame with it about 25 years ago - wirebrushed it, and painted it.
It's been outdoors since then.
No rust.
- Eric
If you only get one side, it can still rust from the OTHER side, which is why it's great for frames, where you can get both sides.
We painted a rusty trailer frame with it about 25 years ago - wirebrushed it, and painted it.
It's been outdoors since then.
No rust.
- Eric
January 27th, 2012, 09:42 AM
#8
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I just looked at the por 15 website. They apparently have Olds Gold engine enamel. I think Rob used it for his block??
I'd be willing to give it a try. NO IDEA where we plan on getting this on the north side of the boarder though..
I'd be willing to give it a try. NO IDEA where we plan on getting this on the north side of the boarder though..
January 27th, 2012, 05:26 PM
#10
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There are easier products to use than POR15. It is all marketing baloney. Wash and prep with their products for mega $$$. All it means is PAINT OVER RUST. I don't like the idea of painting over rust. Do the proper prep with other products. Epoxy primer and a good single stage top coat is all you need.
January 28th, 2012, 05:37 AM
#11
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There are easier products to use than POR15. It is all marketing baloney. Wash and prep with their products for mega $$$. All it means is PAINT OVER RUST. I don't like the idea of painting over rust. Do the proper prep with other products. Epoxy primer and a good single stage top coat is all you need.
January 28th, 2012, 06:09 AM
#12
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Not true.
I have never found anything that works as well as POR.
As a true-blue American Jerry-Rigger, I have tried all sorts of things that were near at hand to "get another year" out of something that should really be properly re-done, and POR is the only one I've found that IS a proper way to re-do it.
If you wirebrush and degrease metal that is rusty on ONE SIDE (not rotted through), and paint it with POR, it will not rust again.
It is not the best thing for sheetmetal, because it is not designed to go on super smoothly or to be easily sanded or recoated, but for heavy metal, like frames, it can't be beat. All the municipalities around here buy it by the gallon for their snow plows and salt trucks, because it works.
I'm sure there are other paints that perform similarly, that are available in 55 gallon drums for painting ships and bridges, but for the home user, POR is the only one I know of.
Also, a note on terminology, POR sells a lot of paints under the "POR" label, but not all of them are the "POR-15" anti-rust paint, so read the label before you buy. For instance, their engine and "chassis black" paints are NOT designed to paint over rust.
- Eric
I have never found anything that works as well as POR.
As a true-blue American Jerry-Rigger, I have tried all sorts of things that were near at hand to "get another year" out of something that should really be properly re-done, and POR is the only one I've found that IS a proper way to re-do it.
If you wirebrush and degrease metal that is rusty on ONE SIDE (not rotted through), and paint it with POR, it will not rust again.
It is not the best thing for sheetmetal, because it is not designed to go on super smoothly or to be easily sanded or recoated, but for heavy metal, like frames, it can't be beat. All the municipalities around here buy it by the gallon for their snow plows and salt trucks, because it works.
I'm sure there are other paints that perform similarly, that are available in 55 gallon drums for painting ships and bridges, but for the home user, POR is the only one I know of.
Also, a note on terminology, POR sells a lot of paints under the "POR" label, but not all of them are the "POR-15" anti-rust paint, so read the label before you buy. For instance, their engine and "chassis black" paints are NOT designed to paint over rust.
- Eric
January 28th, 2012, 07:20 AM
#13
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POR-15 is a half assed way to go. You never see POR-15 used on high end restorations. And using a brush to apply it? Come on. Again, half-assed.
Best way to get rust under control is to REMOVE IT. Rust never sleeps. POR needs rust to adhere to, if you paint it on clean metal it will peel right off. Sounds like a great product doesnt it.
Best way to get rust under control is to REMOVE IT. Rust never sleeps. POR needs rust to adhere to, if you paint it on clean metal it will peel right off. Sounds like a great product doesnt it.
January 28th, 2012, 07:53 AM
#14
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"Oh, look, I just sold my Dusenberg for 1.1 million dollars at Barrett Jackson, and I did all the black in POR with a brush!"
That's not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about providing effective rust protection on vehicles so we can drive them, without taking the time and expense to remove the frame and every single component, sandblast it all, paint it, and reassemble it. (incidentally, if you do all those things, and paint it the way the factory did, then go drive it, it will rust all over again, but if you paint it with POR, it won't, at least not for the first hundred years).
If you want to do a frame-off restoration on your car, then have at it, but I'd rather DRIVE mine, and if a little POR will get 'er down the road for the foreseeable future, that's good enough for me.
- Eric
ps: I have not actually used POR on my Oldsmobile - it's WAY too far gone for that - but I have used it on underside sheet metal on both my Jeep and my BMW (catch the surface rust before it goes through), and on the differential cover on my GMC (started leaking gear oil when the rust ate all the way through it, but JB Weld and POR did the trick!). No problems.
January 28th, 2012, 09:02 AM
#15
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Duh.
That's not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about providing effective rust protection on vehicles so we can drive them, without taking the time and expense to remove the frame and every single component, sandblast it all, paint it, and reassemble it.
If you want to do a frame-off restoration on your car, then have at it, but I'd rather DRIVE mine, and if a little POR will get 'er down the road for the foreseeable future, that's good enough for me.
- Eric
.
That's not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about providing effective rust protection on vehicles so we can drive them, without taking the time and expense to remove the frame and every single component, sandblast it all, paint it, and reassemble it.
If you want to do a frame-off restoration on your car, then have at it, but I'd rather DRIVE mine, and if a little POR will get 'er down the road for the foreseeable future, that's good enough for me.
- Eric
.
Does this look like a wire brush/POR15 candidate?
January 28th, 2012, 09:15 AM
#16
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POR-15 sucks search....
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d...-t229879.html?
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/por-15-a-757-4.html
http://mmb.maverick.to/showthread.php?t=45221
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65439
January 28th, 2012, 10:00 AM
#18
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You DO drive it in rock salt, right?
No need to search.
I've USED it (as mentioned above).
25 years on the same rusty metal, left outdoors all that time, with NO rust.
That's good enough for me.
If you can tell me you've used it and it hasn't worked for you, then we've got something to talk about.
- Eric
ps: Tony, yes, that's what I'm talking about - a good shot with a wire brush (a wheel on a grinder or drill if possible), make sure there's no grease, and cover it up. That's what the trailer frame I did 25 years ago looked like before I did it.
Is this restoration quality? Hell no!
Will it make it look better and protect it until some future buyer strips it down, or until you wreck it? Hell yeah!
Last edited by MDchanic; January 28th, 2012 at 10:04 AM.
January 28th, 2012, 01:12 PM
#19
por-15 is really good but most people do the prep work incorrectly leading to failure. I used por-15 on my girlfriends K5 blazer which we off road and no rust yet has been 4 years and it see's mud almost every weekend in the summer unless we are at the drag strip and it is driven in our salt covered roads up here in illinois. On my olds i literally just undercoated over bare metal I drive it in the rain etc. It's been 5 years and no rust yet , but it was old ashphalt undercoating which is not being made anymore and better than the rubberized stuff. Another method i have used on my truck is bed liner. I cleaned some rust on my rocker panels put on a little zinc rich primer same as etch primer and i used the roller to get the right look but you can use a brush on the underbody. Por-15 can get expensive bed liner is cheap and very durable and can be thined out with acetone and is almost the same as undercoating just thicker.
January 28th, 2012, 05:22 PM
#20
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Like Eric said, POR-15 has a purpose, and it works when prepped and used correctly....TK-65 is also right...if not properly etched, it will peel off clean metal...I've had it work for me, and I've had it fail on me. Dent, with that car though, I'd send the frame for blasting and powdercoating....the car warrants that...bite the bullet, and do it once....you will be glad you did!
January 30th, 2012, 06:01 AM
#22
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Like Eric said, POR-15 has a purpose, and it works when prepped and used correctly....TK-65 is also right...if not properly etched, it will peel off clean metal...I've had it work for me, and I've had it fail on me. Dent, with that car though, I'd send the frame for blasting and powdercoating....the car warrants that...bite the bullet, and do it once....you will be glad you did!
January 30th, 2012, 07:13 AM
#23
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If you can't reach it, then you can't remove grease and loose rust, so no matter what you use, it won't stick to the surface.
If you're a hell bent, a waxy sprayable grease, like grease gun grease thinned with lacquer thinner, would be the only thing you could spray inside that would prevent rust more than it would hurt. It would, however slowly seep out over the years, making it a bad idea for a restoration (but good for a boat or a tractor).
- Eric
If you're a hell bent, a waxy sprayable grease, like grease gun grease thinned with lacquer thinner, would be the only thing you could spray inside that would prevent rust more than it would hurt. It would, however slowly seep out over the years, making it a bad idea for a restoration (but good for a boat or a tractor).
- Eric
January 30th, 2012, 07:48 AM
#24
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I can't say anything bad about POR-15. I used it on the frame, all suspension components, floors, trunk, dash, firewall inside and out, roof under the vinyl top, core support and engine bay when re doing my car, and yes I put it on with a brush. Some people don't have big bucks to buy compressors and spray guns or pay to have someone do it for them. I found that POR-15 levels out great, when it starts to get tacky you spray a light coat of primer on it, when that dries you put a solid coat of primer on it and then you can paint to your liking. It never peeled on me. One thing I can say about it is you can't leave something out in the sun with POR-15 on it unless you spray something over it, the sun eats it up. Here is a picture of my core support after painting it with the above method and so far 2 1/2 years later no flaking, fading or rust. I have more pictures of the stuff I painted if you want to see them.
January 30th, 2012, 08:19 AM
#25
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If you can't reach it, then you can't remove grease and loose rust, so no matter what you use, it won't stick to the surface.
If you're a hell bent, a waxy sprayable grease, like grease gun grease thinned with lacquer thinner, would be the only thing you could spray inside that would prevent rust more than it would hurt. It would, however slowly seep out over the years, making it a bad idea for a restoration (but good for a boat or a tractor).
- Eric
If you're a hell bent, a waxy sprayable grease, like grease gun grease thinned with lacquer thinner, would be the only thing you could spray inside that would prevent rust more than it would hurt. It would, however slowly seep out over the years, making it a bad idea for a restoration (but good for a boat or a tractor).
- Eric
I think when the time comes to reassemble the car I will spray something in there , something that doesn't damage paint.
January 30th, 2012, 08:39 AM
#26
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I can't say anything bad about POR-15. I used it on the frame, all suspension components, floors, trunk, dash, firewall inside and out, roof under the vinyl top, core support and engine bay when re doing my car, and yes I put it on with a brush. Some people don't have big bucks to buy compressors and spray guns or pay to have someone do it for them. I found that POR-15 levels out great, when it starts to get tacky you spray a light coat of primer on it, when that dries you put a solid coat of primer on it and then you can paint to your liking. It never peeled on me. One thing I can say about it is you can't leave something out in the sun with POR-15 on it unless you spray something over it, the sun eats it up. Here is a picture of my core support after painting it with the above method and so far 2 1/2 years later no flaking, fading or rust. I have more pictures of the stuff I painted if you want to see them.
January 30th, 2012, 09:49 AM
#28
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Again, POR is too expensive for what it is. you MUST use their support products, or you are destined to fail. Every step must be followed to a "T" or you will fail. The window of opportunity between steps must be followed, or you will fail. 1 hour late on re-coat and you will fail. You must topcoat with a UV resistant paint, or you will fail. If you use their metal ready on a hot day, it will evaporate and leave a residue faster than you can rinse it off, and you will fail. If you remove your rust and apply it to bare metal, you will fail. If you miss your narrow window of opportunity to re-coat or top coat, you must buy their proprietary self-etching primer, or you will fail. Yes, I KNOW from experience! I will never buy their stuff again!
Or, you can spend less, buy DP epoxy primer, and a PPG single stage eurathane for less $ and have excellent results. Mix, spray, done. Re-coat or top coat in 7 days, no problem.
Or, you can spend less, buy DP epoxy primer, and a PPG single stage eurathane for less $ and have excellent results. Mix, spray, done. Re-coat or top coat in 7 days, no problem.
January 30th, 2012, 10:08 AM
#29
If you can't gey into hard to reach areas to rust proof. You can buy the undercoating gun that has a hose attachment its about 20 in. Long and you can make a hole and or find acces to get the hose in and spray away.
January 30th, 2012, 10:29 AM
#30
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Again, POR is too expensive for what it is. you MUST use their support products, or you are destined to fail. Every step must be followed to a "T" or you will fail. The window of opportunity between steps must be followed, or you will fail. 1 hour late on re-coat and you will fail. You must topcoat with a UV resistant paint, or you will fail. If you use their metal ready on a hot day, it will evaporate and leave a residue faster than you can rinse it off, and you will fail. If you remove your rust and apply it to bare metal, you will fail. If you miss your narrow window of opportunity to re-coat or top coat, you must buy their proprietary self-etching primer, or you will fail. Yes, I KNOW from experience! I will never buy their stuff again!
Or, you can spend less, buy DP epoxy primer, and a PPG single stage eurathane for less $ and have excellent results. Mix, spray, done. Re-coat or top coat in 7 days, no problem.
Or, you can spend less, buy DP epoxy primer, and a PPG single stage eurathane for less $ and have excellent results. Mix, spray, done. Re-coat or top coat in 7 days, no problem.
If you've got a surface you can prep properly, sand, etc., there are other paints that would be a better choice.
- Eric
ps: I have had no problems with sun exposure to the aforementioned trailer frame that I painted 25 years ago - yes, it's not a perfect, shiny black, but, hey, it's a trailer frame, and I really don't care. Sun exposure won't make POR less effective - it will only make it less attractive.
January 30th, 2012, 11:58 AM
#31
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Rust Destroyer Advanced Protective Products
I have used and sold this product for years( maybe 25) and found it to perform better than advertised. It started out as a product developed for the oil refinery industry and later made its way into the retail market.
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
January 30th, 2012, 01:28 PM
#32
NOVICE car nut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
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well im more confused then ever..... everytime I see a thread on products like POR-15 , I hear good and bad leaving me not sure what to use.... ive used POR-15 and did NOT follow the directions to a tee , only one coated it and no rust ever came back in the last 3 or 4 yrs , but have seen where it did fail in other instances , just like seafoam , I was bent on getting that but now hear a few bad things about it again and I was told to go with Lucas oil treatment and that mystery oil....
January 30th, 2012, 01:31 PM
#33
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I think when it comes to the actual restoration process I would do it right and powdercoat the frame and use a epoxy for the panels , but the POR-15 works great at least for a rust stopper until I can get the time , money , and place to restore the car.
January 31st, 2012, 08:35 AM
#34
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Location: Tillsonburg Ont. Canada.
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I have used and sold this product for years( maybe 25) and found it to perform better than advertised. It started out as a product developed for the oil refinery industry and later made its way into the retail market.
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
January 31st, 2012, 08:42 AM
#35
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Yes epoxy is great for properly prepped metal. I used to build tube fenders for Jeeps , always had good luck with epoxy on bare metal .
January 31st, 2012, 11:40 AM
#36
NOVICE car nut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Posts: 3,123
I have used and sold this product for years( maybe 25) and found it to perform better than advertised. It started out as a product developed for the oil refinery industry and later made its way into the retail market.
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
Hi Tedd , is that stuff really called what you have typed in bold letters above your post ? The name seems a bit strange , but sounds like a great product .... is there a web-site to review their product ?
Thanks Bryan
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
# 1 it has a rust converter within it self( will work on rusty or non rusty substrates).But leaves a heavy pigmented burnt red color that flows well and will fill many imperfections the size of small rust pits.
# 2 it will adhere to different types of substrates (ferris . non ferris, galvanized, copper, brass, stainless and aluminum and is flexible enough that it won't chip in high vibration areas or pop if banged.
#3 holds up well to UV (you can paint a bridge and not top coat it and it will be there for years).
Hi Tedd , is that stuff really called what you have typed in bold letters above your post ? The name seems a bit strange , but sounds like a great product .... is there a web-site to review their product ?
Thanks Bryan
#4 Does not use a catalyst and can be top coated with most any hot solvent product with or without catalyst. The downside of this is SLOW dry time, approximate 72 hours for catalyzed top coat at room temperature so if you are in a hurry or dust is a problem this may not work for you. Normal dry to the touch is about 3 to 4 hours.
I think this is a much over looked product and I never here much about it in our hobby..Just my 2 cents...Tedd
January 31st, 2012, 11:44 AM
#37
NOVICE car nut
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lol Tedd , my reply to your post somehow got mixed up with what you said , so what I was trying to say was.... is their a web site to review the product you are talking about ? and is it really called " Rust Destroyer Advanced Protective Products ?
January 31st, 2012, 12:38 PM
#38
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Location: Forest Ranch Ca.
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Oldsguybry.
Yes that is the name it goes by in the retail market( has a funky looking label also) Just pull a google search buy that name something should come up.
I was in the paint and sundry business for 43 years, mostly architectural, light industrial and specially coatings but not much automotive. I do have a shortage of knowledge in the auto coating side of things and I wished I would have put the effort in when I had the chance on someone else's dime but alas old to soon,smart to late......Tedd
Yes that is the name it goes by in the retail market( has a funky looking label also) Just pull a google search buy that name something should come up.
I was in the paint and sundry business for 43 years, mostly architectural, light industrial and specially coatings but not much automotive. I do have a shortage of knowledge in the auto coating side of things and I wished I would have put the effort in when I had the chance on someone else's dime but alas old to soon,smart to late......Tedd
January 31st, 2012, 01:04 PM
#39
Ben
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Snohomish, WA
Posts: 1,825
another option nobody has mentioned... have the frame hot tanked & galvanized. Then paint with an expoxy primer & top coat.
Only real way to completely clean inside the boxed portions, and fully protect from ALL future rust.
Only thing you have to be aware of, if there are any repairs or welding needing to be done, you'll want to do it first- welding on a galvanized surface gives off a poisonous gas.
Typically though... Unless the frame is really badly rusted (you would know) and you are planning to continue driving it in the winter on salted roads... you would never need that level of protection.
I would just have it sandblasted & powdercoated and be done with it.
Only real way to completely clean inside the boxed portions, and fully protect from ALL future rust.
Only thing you have to be aware of, if there are any repairs or welding needing to be done, you'll want to do it first- welding on a galvanized surface gives off a poisonous gas.
Typically though... Unless the frame is really badly rusted (you would know) and you are planning to continue driving it in the winter on salted roads... you would never need that level of protection.
I would just have it sandblasted & powdercoated and be done with it.
January 31st, 2012, 02:58 PM
#40
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Henry,
Since you're in Canada you might want to check out DOM16. Its a lot like POR15, same properties etc but waaaay less expensive. Less than 1/2 the cost of POR. I used it on my front frame last year. Brushes or sprays on, has great leveling on finish. Used the POR metal ready first to give it something to hold on with.
http://www.autobodysource.com/collis...dfs/DOM_16.pdf
Since you're in Canada you might want to check out DOM16. Its a lot like POR15, same properties etc but waaaay less expensive. Less than 1/2 the cost of POR. I used it on my front frame last year. Brushes or sprays on, has great leveling on finish. Used the POR metal ready first to give it something to hold on with.
http://www.autobodysource.com/collis...dfs/DOM_16.pdf
