Paint Frustration

Old October 18th, 2010, 05:45 AM
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Paint Frustration

Hello,

I primered my 71 Olds 98 yesterday. Here are the pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunsalamander14/

I spoke with the paint guys where I bought the paint and they told me to start with a front quarter panel and work my way around the car in about 1/2 an hour. It took me about 4 hours to spray all the paint!

I am very frustrated with the HVLP gun I have. It is a Husky gravity feed HVLP gun I bought at Home Depot. It seems every time I add paint to the gun I have to fiddle with the settings. The bad part is that I use the WAG therom every time I set the gun. I would guess that the entire time I was painting yesterday I had the gun settings right for only about 10 minutes.

Ultimately, I will have to change my technique, HVLP gun, or something before I spray the color. The car could use another coat of primer and an additional block sanding before spraying the color, but I am hesitant to spray another coat of primer let alone the color.

Overall, I'm very disappointed. I think I might tow the car to Macco after an additional coat of primer to have them spray the color.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 05:51 AM
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Ouch Jesse,
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Old October 18th, 2010, 05:57 AM
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You have done so much work already and I know you really wanted to make this a project that you did on your own. Don't get discouraged, get knowledge. There are some accomplished painters here on the site that can help you get the problem corrected, be it equipment set up, paint product, or equipment use. As always, good luck.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 06:17 AM
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Post a pic or model information about that sprayer.
I didn't know Home Depot carried anything appropriate for spraying automotive paints, and I wonder whether this job turned out hard because you used a sprayer made for other types of paint.

1/2 an hour is a reasonable time to get around a car with a single coat, so there's clearly something wrong, and I doubt it's anything you did.

- Eric
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Old October 18th, 2010, 06:35 AM
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Here is the HVLP gun kit I bought.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053

I couldn't get the HVLP gun to shoot consistently. Sometimes my spray pattern was about 6 inches wide, but most of the time my spray pattern was no more than 1.5 inches wide.

I also had trouble setting up the pressure at the compressor and gun. I was told pressure at the gun needed to be about 16 psi with the trigger depressed. Is this true? Sometimes I had the pressure at the compressor set as high as 50 psi, other times I dropped it down to 25 psi.

The gun also didn't seem to respond well to changes in the settings. Pretty much the entire time I had the fluid control valve practically entirely open, and the pressure control valve turned almost completly off. Sometimes the gun would spit globs of paint instead of atomizing it. This is an instance when I would have to fiddle with the settings to get it closer to acceptable. Other times the gun would shoot a very fine mist that barely dusted paint on the car. Also, I noticed that the primer would cake on the nozzle of the gun pretty much all the time. Why does it do this?

I guess you can tell I had alot of trouble.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 06:48 AM
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Hang in there Jesse, hopefully someone here can provide the information you need. You just can't buy the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself!
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Old October 18th, 2010, 07:13 AM
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Don't get frustrated, you'll get it, it can only be a few things.

The primer may be too heavy for that gun, usually you use a bigger tip than you use for clear or color for primer. Or is is it a one size fits all tip and you're supposed to thin the material more deal? That can be a problem too, you end up with hardly any solids and a lot of solvent when you spray and it takes forever to build. You can thin 2K epoxy and use it for a sealer just before color but normally you don't want to or can't for priming, check the tech sheet for the primer.
I used an Astro gravity feed LVLP gun since I only have a small tank 5hp compressor, used a 1.8 tip to epoxy prime and it sprayed fine.
The HVLP and LVLP guns do take a little longer to apply material but it shouldn't take that long.
I'm just guessing, there are pro body guys on here like Erik and a few others, maybe they'll chime in.

If you want to go elsewhere and ask some pro painters and body guys try these two forums.
I drained their brains when I was doing my Vista.

http://www.autobody101.com/forums/

http://autobodystore.com/forum/index.php
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Old October 18th, 2010, 07:49 AM
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Ditto on the above autobody forums...They were quite helpful...

I have played with bodywork on a few cars over the years so I managed to accumulate the tools/equip required...You need at least 2 good guns, a good compressor, air filters...on and on...If you are just starting out and this is a one time thing then you are better off taking it in because the proper equipment will add up but if you really want to do it yourself then I say go for it...

You may have to redo somethings more than once but you will learn along the way and it can turn out pretty good...One good thing is that you know what is going into and on your car...when you take it to a shop you never know what kind of quality work you get...
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Old October 18th, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Tip size and constant pressure at the gun with a guage. That is what I ran into practicing before I painted my car. My sig is my 1st paint job. Also make sure you have a good filter in your system for oil and water. I did watch my (ex) brother in law years ago paint a few cars which helped. Good luck! Remember, before you paint, it can always be sanded off! Been there.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 05:47 PM
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I only have a modest compressor and an even more modest paint gun. I had a friend tell me to get a good filter and it made my amateur efforts turn out much better. Best of luck.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 06:13 PM
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first off get a regulator and guage to put at the gun. the compressor can have 100psi at it but there is line loss through the hose so you need to control it at the gun. the cheap guns will work fine for what you are doing but the whole HVLP thing is a load so the EPA can help the gun makers sell more. I use one and usually run the psi at the gun around 35 to get it to atomize the material correctly. also as you were told get a filter for the gun. water is the biggest enemy and you would be suprised how much collects in the hose.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Olds64 View Post
Here is the HVLP gun kit I bought.
I've got to admit, I did almost all of my painting (and all of my whole-car painting) in the dark ages of $32 a gallon acrylic lacquer with high-pressure guns, and, looking at that product listing, it sure LOOKS like it would be right for this, but I suspect that a Chinese gun would be a bad idea for painting a car. As effective as some Chinese guns may be for their intended purposes (the SKS comes to mind...), I would prefer to paint with something with guaranteed high quality parts, like a DeVilbiss, or even a high-end older Sears Craftsman, than to risk the job on Chinese manufacturing prowess.

Just my $0.02, and I may have product prejudices, but I'd be nervous about using that stuff.

Good luck, and don't give up - when you find the right equipment and get it set up the way it should be, this'll go so well you'll wonder why you kept going when that other gun was treating you so badly.

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Old October 19th, 2010, 05:35 AM
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Thanks for the tips so far. I look forward to further comments.

When I set up the HVLP gun I had a pressure regulator at the compressor. This was generally set at about 35 psi. Then I had 15 feet of hose to a drier/filter. After the drier/filter I had 50 feet of hose to another pressure regulator that was attached to the HVLP gun. I kept the second pressure regulator at about 20 psi with the trigger on the HVLP gun depressed.

I wonder if the drier/filter I'm using is adequate for the job? This is the one I'm using:

http://www.homedepot.com/Husky/h_d1/...atalogId=10053
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Old October 19th, 2010, 07:51 AM
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Jesse I have used one of those filter on my gun, but I prefer using a regulator and filter comb., mounted close to the air compressor. I let compressor run its normal cycle. I don't adjust the compressor, but I do adjust the regulator that I have mounted on the wall about 5 feet away from the compressor. Then I adjust the gun for the right pressure. I've found to much air pressure can affect your spray pattern to the effect it almost like using a spray can. Instead of having a nice wide pattern.

It just take time playing with the equipment learning how to make it operate properly.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Olds64 View Post
Ultimately, I will have to change my technique, HVLP gun, or something before I spray the color. The car could use another coat of primer and an additional block sanding before spraying the color, but I am hesitant to spray another coat of primer let alone the color.

Overall, I'm very disappointed. I think I might tow the car to Macco after an additional coat of primer to have them spray the color.
Jess,
I was there for 6 years with my 65. I had no other local experienced help, and MY body working skills are very bad. Let's reach out there and say my body working skills are "crap". My painting, better, not professional by any means.
I lost patience.
I went to Macco.
I was stunned by the results.

You are not alone, remember, they can SHOOT paint very well. (My avatar was shot at their shop)
Just another option.
Good luck
Jim
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Old October 20th, 2010, 08:55 AM
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try this
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Old October 20th, 2010, 10:13 AM
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I bought a Chinese knockoff gun some decades ago from my local paint supply, who said it worked well. It is the old style high pressure, paint-wasting, utterly reliable type. Today the acrylic lacquer is over $200 per gallon, but wasting a little of it is a "drop in the bucket" compared to other costs. Furthermore, I know how to use such a gun. Lacquer is great for later touch up, and Pre Val makes a little sprayer that works great for small areas.

So, I decided to use the gun I know, the kind of paint I know, and get on with it. I don't plan to professionally paint so I don't care if my technique is as old as I am. If the car looks great, I have reached my goal.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 10:15 AM
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Yeah, I've seen plenty of forums about painting a car with a foam roller. I guess it is a find method. In fact, I originally intended to paint my car that way; however, I wanted a decent air compressor. So after I bought the air compressor I decided to spray my car instead of using a foam roller.

FWIW, I think I am going to spray the second coat of primer this weekend with the other gun in my kit and see how that goes. Hopefully it goes well. I think I might have experienced problems because I sprayed primer with the first gun in the kit which I had used a few weeks prior to paint my wife's VW.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 10:51 AM
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The roller may be ok for a chevy,but never on an OLDSMOBILE lol!I was joking when I posted that ,didn,t know you could get good results with it, only time I ever saw a roller painted car was on bush buggy.
From what I know of painting is it takes good equip,a steady hand and lots of pratice.and lot of sand paper to erase mistakes.good luck.
It was very nice of your wife to let you pratice on her car.she must be a good woman.

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Old October 20th, 2010, 01:04 PM
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Jesse, you said you used Nason primer? Which one, and did you get the Tech sheet? What was the temp when you sprayed, including the metal temp? HVLP is the way to go, especially with a small comp and for material savings...try to shorten your hose quite a bit, and use a regulator at the gun! A spray gun is much like a carb, too much air, too lean(which looked like your problem)...also like others have said, fluid tip size is very important! 1.6 would be excellent....also, remember, a good paint job is like building a house...without a good foundation, the house will crumble! Sand it down really well and try it again.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 02:20 PM
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According to the HD site both of your guns have a 1.4mm tip, which I wanna say is like the bare minimum that is even capable of spraying primer. I perused a few of the Nason primer tech sheets and they seemed to be anywhere from 1.5-1.8

A bigger tip would prolly be good, 1.8-2.0 seems to be the go-to recommendation for primer elsewhere on the net, but I'd bet dollars to donuts HD doesn't sell more tips for those guns. I would try thinning it quite a bit and test it out on something small before doing the whole thing again.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Coltonis View Post
... I would try thinning it quite a bit and test it out on something small before doing the whole thing again.
Just keep in mind, thinning the product can be a band-aid...proper gun set up and conditions allow the product to do what it was intended to do.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 10:14 AM
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I used Nason 421-17 2K Urethane Primer.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 03:19 PM
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Good news gents. I sprayed the second coat of primer on Sunday and it went alot better than the first coat of primer!

I setup the other gun from my Home Depot kit and it worked much better than the first gun. Interestingly enough, the first gun I used and had so much trouble with was the HVLP gun. The one I used this weekend was the "convetional gun." Truthfully, I don't know the difference, but I am much happier with the results from the "conventional gun."

FWIW, I set the air compressor at 75 psi. Then I set the regulator going into the gun at 50 psi with the trigger depressed. I did some reading and I found out that high quality guns have two pressure gauges on them; one going into the gun and one at the tip. The guns I have only have the pressure gauge going into the gun. I found out that the gun provides a pressure drop.

Anyways, with the pressure at 50 psi going into the gun the spray patter was much better. I sprayed two coats of primer on the Olds in about 45 minutes. The hard part was seeing where I was spraying, since the car was already buff and I was spraying buff primer. Hopefully when and if I spray the color I won't have that problem.

The other problem I encountered is there are very light spray marks in the paint. I plan on wet sanding before I spray the color; however, what would cause the marks in the paint? You really can't see them unless the light hits the car right.

Ultimately, I plan on painting one of the fender skirts with a basecoat this week. I got some color from the paint store. They gave me a sample to test before I bought a gallon. It is the base coat for Omni two stage urethane.

BTW, how should I clean the gun? I thorougly cleaned it with paint thinner and mineral spirits. I just want to make sure the gun is good to use again in a week. After today I am feeling much better about painting the car.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 05:58 PM
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I painted cars I restored in the 70's and 80's and used a Binks #7,best primer and paint gun I ever used,incl bc/cc jobs.I would like to have a pro hvlp user do the paint though when I have it painted this winter.just wanted to mention the binks for primer.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 05:52 PM
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Your guns should be fine. I wouldn't buy them for everyday use in a body shop, but perfectly capable for a diy guy. If you have clumps of paint coming out of your gun, that means you have clumps of paint IN your gun, which is never a good sign. The pot life of 2k urethane primer is way less than 4 hours, so it was probably turning to gel in the gun as you were spraying it. It takes me about 20 minutes including flash time to get two full coats of primer on an entire car. 1.4 is a bit small for primer, but also not a huge problem, just makes it go slower. Top quality guns like DeVilbiss, SATA, Anest Iwata, etc. only have one air pressure adjustment on them. HVLP guns are very sensitive to air pressure fluctuations and the pressure must be measured at the air cap. We remove the air cap and screw a gauge onto the gun in it's place, adjust it and then screw the cap back on. A half pound of air can make the difference between laying the paint out the way you want it or not. Again, with primer, that should not be your issue. If you are comfortable with the conventional gun, just use it. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 06:05 PM
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just a side note. we are currently in the process of making all the necessary changes to comply with the new EPA laws that go into effect on January 11th and immediately for all start-up shops. Also, for the first time, the EPA will be regulating and pursuing private (DIY) offenders. It is now illegal to spray ANYTHING outside of a paint booth. All persons that apply paint must be EPA certified, paint booths must have exhaust arrestors that are 98% capture efficient and documentation must be provided on demand to verify that they comply. All guns must be HVLP or certified equivalent. The DeVilbiss Plus is certified equivalent and is our gun of choice. We now roll all of our primer using the foam roller method(which actually is working very well) unless it's a large area in which case we have to mask it up and send it through the paint booth.
In the past if a neighbor complained about the paint there wasn't anything that could really be done, because the laws don't really apply to DIY private users. Beginning in January if someone complains about you, you could be looking at a seriously hefty fine. One of our shops in Florida is currently looking at a $3500 fine because a painter left two containers of lacquer thinner open.

Oddly enough, the U.S. military is the largest polluter in the country and is STILL exempt.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ijasond View Post

Oddly enough, the U.S. military is the largest polluter in the country and is STILL exempt.
Why bring that up?
I don't think most people really care if they're STILL exempt, they should always be exempt IMO and I'm sure a few others agree.
Live and let live, the military is the last place to be critical of right now.

The EPA would want them to have safe bullets and bombs too.


If you can't spray ANYTHING outside of a spray booth those spray tan places are going to be in real trouble.
I guess next year I'm going to have to watch out for the body shop owner narc that lives next door and EPA cops patrolling the neighborhood if this lowly "hobbiest" wants to spray paint a lug wrench in the garage.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 08:28 PM
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I never said that they would be out "patrolling the streets", but they do investigate every complaint and Ive known plenty of hobbyists to have neighbors report them because they don't like the smell and the overspray.
I don't think the spray tan people have anything to worry about. I'm not being critical of the military. I have great respect for those who serve. I am critical of the politicians and beaurocrats who makes policies and decide who is required to abide by them. If we can't question that, then we truly have no voice. They claim to want to protect the earth, yet won't bother to do the simplest things they require of a citizen in his garage at his home. It's not the military, but the EPA I'm criticizing.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ijasond View Post
... We now roll all of our primer using the foam roller method(which actually is working very well) unless it's a large area in which case we have to mask it up and send it through the paint booth.. .
EPA Rule 40 CFR Part 63(6H Rule)....prep deck with a roof and curtain sides is compliant....also you can spray paint or primer on the open floor, as long as your cup size is 3oz or smaller! Here are some links....

http://www.epa.gov/collisionrepair/tools.html
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/area/fr09ja08.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/area/arearules.html

As far as hobbyists are concerned, obviously this rule would not apply, but respect and knowledge of your local environmental laws would be the issue. If you are painting a car with the garage door open, and the fume cloud is making it's way to each of your neighbors, you're only asking for trouble!


Go to pc.dupont.com for a video overview of the rule....

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Old October 28th, 2010, 03:34 PM
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This is the thread that started the whole paint your car with a roller thing. It's over 40 pages but it is a nice read if you aren't familiar with the process.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...0&fpart=1&vc=1
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Old October 28th, 2010, 03:39 PM
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ijasond View Post
... the EPA will be regulating and pursuing private (DIY) offenders. It is now illegal to spray ANYTHING outside of a paint booth. All persons that apply paint must be EPA certified, paint booths must have exhaust arrestors that are 98% capture efficient and documentation must be provided on demand to verify that they comply...

In the past if a neighbor complained about the paint there wasn't anything that could really be done, because the laws don't really apply to DIY private users. Beginning in January if someone complains about you, you could be looking at a seriously hefty fine. One of our shops in Florida is currently looking at a $3500 fine because a painter left two containers of lacquer thinner open.
See "This Rule Does Not Apply To" on the third page (Entire Document is here -
including it in this post as an image only makes some of it viewable):






- Eric
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:33 PM
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every state is enforcing differently. in Georgia you can paint up to 3 cars a year with no booth as a private individual. if you are a shop you have to become certified which is the biggest waste of time there is. you read the stuff and take a written test and someone certified signs off that you are good. they then want you to send the EPA your papers so they can come give you a fine for some minor infraction. of course if you dont send in the papers they cant locate you and will likely never bother you so most dont send it in. the EPA is not ambitious enough to actually go out and look for you. most of all this is just a government method to fine you and take your money.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by compedgemarine View Post
most of all this is just a government method to fine you and take your money.
Isn't that what government's there for?
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Old October 28th, 2010, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by compedgemarine View Post
every state is enforcing differently. in Georgia you can paint up to 3 cars a year with no booth as a private individual. if you are a shop you have to become certified which is the biggest waste of time there is. you read the stuff and take a written test and someone certified signs off that you are good. they then want you to send the EPA your papers so they can come give you a fine for some minor infraction. of course if you dont send in the papers they cant locate you and will likely never bother you so most dont send it in. the EPA is not ambitious enough to actually go out and look for you. most of all this is just a government method to fine you and take your money.
Pretty much...but don't sit on your laurels if you own or manage a body shop! Like you said, the gov is looking for revenue...interpret that as "if I don't comply, they can fine me....if I ignore it, they may FIND me and severely FINE me..."
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Old October 28th, 2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ent72olds View Post
Pretty much...but don't sit on your laurels if you own or manage a body shop! Like you said, the gov is looking for revenue...interpret that as "if I don't comply, they can fine me....if I ignore it, they may FIND me and severely FINE me..."
true but that is part of the stupidity of this. if I fill out the paper work and I have the certification then I fulfilled everything and there is no additional fines or problems, they just dont know where I am. but if I send in the paperwork I get put on the list of shops to come inspect. basically they want you to do their job and tell them to come and fine you.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by compedgemarine View Post
true but that is part of the stupidity of this. if I fill out the paper work and I have the certification then I fulfilled everything and there is no additional fines or problems, they just dont know where I am. but if I send in the paperwork I get put on the list of shops to come inspect. basically they want you to do their job and tell them to come and fine you.
Do you own a shop? You are being mis-informed. The first step of the process is to register your shop with the EPA...without that, the rest won't matter! If they didn't know where you were, obviously you wouldn't need the paperwork. When all procedures are satisfied, you will receive a certificate from the EPA...
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Old October 28th, 2010, 07:14 PM
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Actually I run the shop. here in Georgia I am not required to register with the EPA. I just have to be certified. the EPA doesnt even do the certification. for some reason they are doing things differently in each state. at some point they will all be on the same page but that may be awhile. I am currently certified and compliant and have all my papers on hand in my office so if they show up all is good. why they are doing this way is beyond me but that is the process here at the moment.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 02:40 PM
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I know that paint is dangerous stuff. I sprayed a test panel the other day and walked to the end of the driveway to make a telephone call. The paint smell was strong enough I had to walk down the fence line a bit.

Luckily, my neighbors are pretty understanding of my hobby. I sprayed the primer two different days and didn't get any complaints. When I spray the color and clear tomorrow I don't expect any harassment.

FWIW, I bought Omni basecoat and Nason clear coat. The guys at the paint shop said Omni basecoat would be better than Nason because you only have to mix the color and reducer (there is no activator required). They also said the Nason clear coat would work fine over the Omni basecoat and cost a little less.

It was about $240 for the materials for basecoat/clearcoat, and it was about $100 for the primer. Ultimately, I think I will have the total paint job done for less than $500. That is pretty AWSOME!

I will paint the car tomorrow and post pics in the evening. Wish me luck!
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