clear coat or enamel?

Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:23 PM
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clear coat or enamel?

i am not a base coat clear coat fan and my painter also don't like it on the older cars. i was wondering what you all think? when i polish enamel it seems to shine way more than a clear coat will. the reason i ask is that at the nationals i over heard two older guys talking about there 1950s oldsmobiles originally being clear coated. i wonder if they were talking about when they originally got the car or when it was new? with them being older i figured they would know that clear was not around then.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:36 PM
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Definitely not clear when they were new...
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:45 PM
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Hey,I'm not sure what year they started using it,but cars used to be done in lacquer paint and clear.Some in the sixtes,i think.The other guys will know,BO
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Old July 26th, 2009, 01:08 PM
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I was under the impression that most clear coat finishes started to become common place on autos in the late 80 early 90's...

I am planning to paint my 61 with a PPG single stage system vs base/clear. Reason is that I fell this will give me the cloest finish that was on the car day one without using lacquer + I like my results when using single stage on the interior.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 01:44 PM
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I don't think lacquer and clear were ever used together. GM started using acrylic lacquer in the late 50's. It dried flat and had to be rubbed out with a buffer and rubbing compound. The old customs would sometimes have 20 or more coats which was hand rubbed after every few coats (or so they claimed). After a few years it would have cracks all over it. I think the single stage paint will be a lot closer to what the car looked like originally and not appear over restored like a lot of them are. We used single stage on my friends 54 convertible and it looks like it should.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by redoldsman View Post
I don't think lacquer and clear were ever used together. GM started using acrylic lacquer in the late 50's. It dried flat and had to be rubbed out with a buffer and rubbing compound. The old customs would sometimes have 20 or more coats which was hand rubbed after every few coats (or so they claimed). After a few years it would have cracks all over it. I think the single stage paint will be a lot closer to what the car looked like originally and not appear over restored like a lot of them are. We used single stage on my friends 54 convertible and it looks like it should.
Sure, there was clear lacquer. Used multiple layers of color, then clear. We do have some paint experts here, and there have been some good previous threads that should be looked up.
Here's one:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...age-paint.html
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Old July 26th, 2009, 02:07 PM
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It's basecoat clearcoat for me. It's easy to spray, very easy to repair a run during the painting process, It shines like crazy, metallic can be fanned on evenly before the clear and buffing won't distort the metallic because it's under the clear, it lasts, when it shrinks a little you can color sand it and rebuff. For me it's a no brainer but I can see where it wouldn't look quite right on an older show car trying to achieve the older laquer look.
Just my 2 cents
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Old July 26th, 2009, 03:03 PM
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Thumbs up Paints of To-day

If single stage would be the Paint Product of the Day we wouldn't have BC/CC To-day. The Base Clears of the day are so much more superior than Lacquers, Enamels, Acrylics, and Two part Urethane Enamels, that when it comes to doing any blow ins on your Vehicles in the future these obsolete Products people are still trying to use To-day will be disbaned from the market place. People will then learn from their choices. The BC/CC of To-day is in the process as we speak to change to Water Bourne Base colors, but you'll be assured of a color match you won't get if you resist the Materials of the Future. When all these Paints of the Past are Outlawed for use, because they harm the enviroment we'll be glad our cars still look so good and the colors don't fade, that they still match the original Factory Paint the choice is Simple.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 06:11 PM
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Hey guys,theres no question base/clear is the best ,because its so forgiving ,i mean a good colorsand and buff man can make even an amature look like a hero.On the oth er hand,PPG [and others im sure]makes a really good single stage''concept'',as long as its a solid color you can buff it out to,no go on metallic colors.
Best case senerio,go the extra mile ,to achive a clean job,sprayed slick enough that ''buffing''becomes an option,rather than a nessecity.
If your new to painting,base clear can save you a redo,you can buff out runs,trash,even a little dry spray or orange peel.Older cars came with some orange peel,so if your doing restoration/correct thats still a choice.
This buffing isnt easy work either,it takes experience to do it right.Best bet. find a painter friend and get lots of pointers.
Myself and others will be glad to do what we can,here.I'd go bc/cc if your doing it yourself,might save material costs,and if youve priced it latly,you know its not cheap.
Good luck ,no matter what you decide to use.Ultametly its your car,everyone should make themselves happy,that, to me is half the fun....the other half comes at WOT!!Later on,BO
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Old July 26th, 2009, 06:33 PM
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i can paint small stuff and chassis stuff but i won't even try the body. i will leave that up to the guy that painted my Rallye 350. my Rallye is enamel and has ben fine. it was done in 1999. i don't drive these cars more than 3000 miles per year. i would like to drive them more but won't be able to till the kids get older. we take the van out when we go for a drive because the kids are still little and the van is more practical. i just Polish the rallye 350 every two years or so and looks great.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 06:38 PM
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I like basecoat clearcoat. That's how I did my 72 Cutlass S. Looks fabulous, still 23 years later. The best part is that any minor surface blemishes or scratches can easily be wetsanded and polished without touching the paint. I wish it was part of the Olds build package back in 72.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 06:45 PM
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Yeah,your car does look good.I also do door jambs,small interior parts ect..,with single stage.Its just easy and quicker.Sounds like you;ve got it handled.What car are you building now?Did you ever get your 455 together?If i remember correctly ,we had a similar combo.Mines on ''simer''slow cooking.BO
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Old July 26th, 2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BosMobile View Post
Yeah,your car does look good.I also do door jambs,small interior parts ect..,with single stage.Its just easy and quicker.Sounds like you;ve got it handled.What car are you building now?Did you ever get your 455 together?If i remember correctly ,we had a similar combo.Mines on ''simer''slow cooking.BO
i'm not doing any painting on anything now but will eventually repaint the 72 cutlass i got home today. as far as the 455, i got the engine and all the parts about two months ago but am not going to build it till i decide what i will put it in. i will have to cough up another $800 or more for the machine work and head work that still needs done. some of the parts that come with it i will not need. i may post them for sale.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 07:11 PM
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yeah thats me,paying for it and the parts pretty much used up my funding for a while.BO
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Old July 27th, 2009, 05:49 AM
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Polishing !!!

i just Polish the rallye 350 every two years or so and looks great.[/quote]


I take note you say you polish your "350" every two years or so, but remember that you are removing the original paint color every time that it's polished and Enamel Single Stage isn't as hard a finish as Clearcoat of which is not the color of your car. I'm just guessing when you say your paint is Enamel you mean it's Single Stage and not regular Enamel from many years ago?
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Old July 27th, 2009, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chequenman View Post
i just Polish the rallye 350 every two years or so and looks great.

I take note you say you polish your "350" every two years or so, but remember that you are removing the original paint color every time that it's polished and Enamel Single Stage isn't as hard a finish as Clearcoat of which is not the color of your car. I'm just guessing when you say your paint is Enamel you mean it's Single Stage and not regular Enamel from many years ago?[/quote]
yes, single stage. i am new to the terminology
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Old July 27th, 2009, 03:42 PM
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i just got back from the guy that does my painting. he said that if i go with the original Saturn gold on the 72 cutlass i just got i will have to go base clear. he said that single stage would be best for yellows reds and whites. i don't know what all this means but looks like i will be going base clear with this car. he quoted $3500 to $4000 for the job and that is if i take it apart, him edge it all and do the body work, then i put it back together and him finish the body painting. then i would finish putting the trim and bumpers and misc back on. the only body work needed is some dings, there is zero rust. it has not even turned brown colored up under the trunk lid. my painter said that any metallic can not be single stage. why is this? this is the guy that painted my Rallye 350 and if he paints this car it will be likely that it will be the last one he does for me. he wants to retire and is now over 60. he said that he may before winter but i wont be ready till then. the bad thing is that the only other place that knows what they are doing will be over $8000
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Old July 27th, 2009, 07:50 PM
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Thumbs up Paint???

[quote= my painter said that any metallic can not be single stage. why is this? this is the guy that painted my Rallye 350 and if he paints this car it will be likely that it will be the last one he does for me. he wants to retire and is now over 60. he said that he may before winter but i wont be ready till then. the bad thing is that the only other place that knows what they are doing will be over $8000[/quote]


I think what your Painter is saying is that Single Stage Enamel doesn't give the stand up retention from the Metallic like it dose when sprayed in Base/Clear. All Metallics can be applied in Single Stage but the finished results in Base/Clear will be so much more superior in appearance and longevity. You have probably seen paint jobs on Customs that have whats called flip flop pearls, and a lot of that is the particles in the paint when applied that lay down in the paint and reflect the sun light to change their colors..... If you're keeping this vehicle for a long time and you want it to appreciate in value, be sure to get yourself thoroughly involved with whats out in the Market Place. Make the right choice for the best Products, as you don't want to pay for it a second time because it just didn't hold up.

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Old July 27th, 2009, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bjtstarfire View Post
I was under the impression that most clear coat finishes started to become common place on autos in the late 80 early 90's...

I am planning to paint my 61 with a PPG single stage system vs base/clear. Reason is that I fell this will give me the closet finish that was on the car day one without using lacquer + I like my results when using single stage on the interior.

BC/CC was started in the early eighties in G.M. but late in the eighties for the Ford Product line up. I sure read about a lot of guys still wanting to use Single Stage Enamel but it sure doesn't have the hold out for color and the lasting sheen you'll get when you go bc/cc formula. Dollar for dollar, other then Water Bourne, to-days bc/cc will make you a happier camper in the long run. Remember in a couple of years you won't be able to buy Single Stage Enamels as they are going to be regulated as harmfull to the environment and then all there will be is Water Bourne BC/CC,that you won't be able to match that scratch on your fender when done in Single Stage. "Think Before You Spray"
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Old July 29th, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Hey man,The main reason for clearcoat ,when doing metallics,is that you cant buff and polish metallic single stage.When you rub on your yellow car,each time your removing a small amount of material.[the rag/buffer has color on it]Clearcoat,is just what it implys,a layer of clear over the color.This protects the color ,kind of like ''laminating'' a document.Metallics,are small piecies of ''flake'',If its not clearcoated,when you try to polish it ,it will actually move the metallic flake ,causing streaks,lite/dark spots.==Ruined paint job!
Not to mention spraying single stage metallic color,can be tricky,and if you make a mistake..your done,repaint.
Clearcoat,on the other hand,is very forgiving.The base is easy to apply,so that the metallic lays flat,and even,giving you a uniform finish.Clearcoat is also surperior in that it weathers better,can be ultra fine sanded and buffed,and is genrally easy to repair.Should it be nessicery to repaint only part of the car ,the color can be matched perfectly.Go clearcoat,you'll never regret the choice.IMO.Hope this clears the water some for you,welcome any futher inquiry,later on,BO
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Old July 29th, 2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BosMobile View Post
Hey man,The main reason for clearcoat ,when doing metallics,is that you cant buff and polish metallic single stage.When you rub on your yellow car,each time your removing a small amount of material.[the rag/buffer has color on it]Clearcoat,is just what it implys,a layer of clear over the color.This protects the color ,kind of like ''laminating'' a document.Metallics,are small piecies of ''flake'',If its not clearcoated,when you try to polish it ,it will actually move the metallic flake ,causing streaks,lite/dark spots.==Ruined paint job!
Not to mention spraying single stage metallic color,can be tricky,and if you make a mistake..your done,repaint.
Clearcoat,on the other hand,is very forgiving.The base is easy to apply,so that the metallic lays flat,and even,giving you a uniform finish.Clearcoat is also surperior in that it weathers better,can be ultra fine sanded and buffed,and is genrally easy to repair.Should it be nessicery to repaint only part of the car ,the color can be matched perfectly.Go clearcoat,you'll never regret the choice.IMO.Hope this clears the water some for you,welcome any futher inquiry,later on,BO
to go with saturn gold my painter said i will have to go base clear. that is fine with me if that is what i need to do but i have seen so many cars that have dirt in the clear coat that i have always ben scard of it. i figure if there is dirt in it you are not going to get it out without repainting the clear.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 06:52 PM
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Smile

I think what your refuring to as dirt,i'd call trash.Anytime you paint a car[or anything really]things in the air, dust,most commonly,land on your pretty wet paint.Causing little specs,this is normal.Thats why everyone yells sand and buff.After the clear dries you sand it, starting with as rough as 800 grit,working your way toward 3000 grit .These scratches are so fine ,they buff out easily.The sanding is done very carefuly,a piece of dirt under the sand paper your useing would be like 320 grit[won't rub out-UH-OH]
My policy-CLEAN- everything clean!I do my best to insure theres no dirt on the car to blow out while spraying,i clean the air hose ,my gun,the booth especialy.Thats why you wet the floor.To keep dust down,while spraying the car.I could go on and on.
I particularly do not like buffing,so the less dirt,the less rub.Not to mention your taking off[via sanding]one of those protective layers of clear.Clears great though ,you really can fix most unexpected problems by ultra fine sanding and buffing.Which makes you[the customer]very happy!Hope i'm helping,feels good!I'm usally asking the questions,Glad to give back,Later,BO
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:12 PM
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my painter does not have a booth. just a garage that he paints in. he has done very high end paint jobs and has painted for over 40 years. i only seen one of his base clear cars and it looked good but i have never had one done for me. i guess i just have to get on board with the new era. he likes single stage on the older cars also but he told me like you all are, it should not be done on some colors. i ask him about the new "water whatever" paint. he said that he will retire before he will have to use it. he said that he only will be painting for a couple more years. he did tell me of the only other guy in the area that has work as good as his but that guy will be over $7000 for a paint job.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:36 PM
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WHAT no Paint Booth !!!

Originally Posted by jensenracing77 View Post
my painter does not have a booth. just a garage that he paints in. he has done very high end paint jobs and has painted for over 40 years. i only seen one of his base clear cars and it looked good but i have never had one done for me. i guess i just have to get on board with the new era. he likes single stage on the older cars also but he told me like you all are, it should not be done on some colors. i ask him about the new "water whatever" paint. he said that he will retire before he will have to use it. he said that he only will be painting for a couple more years. he did tell me of the only other guy in the area that has work as good as his but that guy will be over $7000 for a paint job.

I don't know what else is to be said but you get what you PAY for and as far as no paint booth how much value are you placing in the end results. If you don't have much invested in this project just carry on.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:45 PM
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You make your own paint booth

Originally Posted by chequenman View Post
I don't know what else is to be said but you get what you PAY for and as far as no paint booth how much value are you placing in the end results. If you don't have much invested in this project just carry on.
When it comes to paint jobs you don't always get what you pay for. Usually it's less than what you expect.
You don't need to fork out money for a paint booth paint job. Some of the best paint jobs out there have been done in garages.

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Old July 29th, 2009, 08:05 PM
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"Paint Booths"

Originally Posted by MN71W30 View Post
When it comes to paint jobs you don't always get what you pay for. Usually it's less than what you expect.
You don't need to fork out money for a paint booth paint job. Some of the best paint jobs out there have been done in garages.
I agree about what "you" are saying as I make my own Booth, but I'm referring to Jensen paying Large coin for someone else to take his money, paint his car and not have much invested so he can give excellent results and still stand behind his workmanship. "I don't mean a Mile behind.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 07:51 AM
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MN71W30 is right on track,I'm inspired by that photo,its very possible to get a clean job out of a booth like that.I'm in a shop with no booth right now,I'm going to put plastic on the floor,and build a frame out of PVC,then wrap it with plastic or tarps.Plastic would be better ,because it'll be clean everytime i put it up.
Painting in an A#1 ,50,000 dollar downdraft booth isnt always an opption.It is nice though!Look,the guys already painted a car for you,you seem satisfied with the work.So why not trust him again.As far as waterbourn paint,yes its coming,nothing to fear,the paint industry has been changing ever since i started painting.I remember when clearcoat was ''the new thing''A good painter adjusts and i try to be up on the latest.So,I'd say,get your car down there before he retires.
These are an exaple of why paint jobs often vary in price.Later on,BO
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Old July 30th, 2009, 09:24 AM
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i am going to look at a couple cars that he did that are two stage. i just talked to a guy here at work that is one of our customers, he said that he had 2 cars done by the same guy that i use that were cleared. he is very happy with his. he also told me that this guy painted some cars that were 2 stage that sold for very big money. i did not know about that but i will find out more before i spend the money. the guy has never steered me wrong but i am just nervous about that much money at the same time being my first 2 stage paint job. my painter did tell me that he would have to charge a little more if i do it in the winter because he has to have a heater going and has to take extra steps to keep the dust under control.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Hey,what did he charge for the last paint job?I'd gauge off that and the condion of this car. Does'nt sound like that bad of a deal,really.Go look and let us know,later ,BO
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Old July 30th, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Thumbs up They don't call me Dusty "4" nothing

[quote=my painter did tell me that he would have to charge a little more if i do it in the winter because he has to have a heater going and has to take extra steps to keep the dust under control.[/qu


I don't think dust is the main problem he'll have in the Winter, he'll be trying to get the sheet metal of your car warm enough to try and get 4-5 coats of Material on your car without turning on his forced air heat which can cause an explosion with the paint vapours. The Forced Air heat will in turn start to move the dust around and with no down draft booth you'll be waiting 'till the Warm weather to get it done where everyone will be happy. Just think "Dust Galore".... or was that some Dancer I used to go out with??
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Old July 30th, 2009, 12:08 PM
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X2 on the dancer!!hahahahah!!!
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Old July 30th, 2009, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chequenman View Post
I don't think dust is the main problem he'll have in the Winter, he'll be trying to get the sheet metal of your car warm enough to try and get 4-5 coats of Material on your car without turning on his forced air heat which can cause an explosion with the paint vapours. The Forced Air heat will in turn start to move the dust around and with no down draft booth you'll be waiting 'till the Warm weather to get it done where everyone will be happy. Just think "Dust Galore".... or was that some Dancer I used to go out with??
Unless he has a radiant tube heater.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 07:17 PM
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We painted ours in Minnesota in the late winter. We cut a filter in the side of the booth for heat to blow in and the multiple filters was for fresh air. You need to pick your day to paint. Why paint a car on a windy day? or a real cold day? We pulled return air from the attic that was partially heated by the sun and filtered it as it came through the cieling. We painted a 67 442 last winter and it was too cold and we had some runs in the clear. But basecoat clearcoat is easy to scrape out the runs and buff. It's all about planning and preparation.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 07:42 PM
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Arrow If He only had the MONEY!!!

Originally Posted by wmachine View Post
Unless he has a radiant tube heater.

I think if someone had Radiant Heat they'ld have a Downdraft, after all he is a Painter so we've been told !!!
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