Hey, gang. Nice community you have here. I made a quick introduction on the newbie forum but thought I'd drop in here to say hello.

I'm 41 with a young family (Nora, 4; Spencer, 5; the ever fetching Samantha) and live in central PA. I've owned a couple classic GM trucks through the years (Plus a '79 Cherokee Sport stashed in AK...) and currently daily drive a '78 K10 Suburban to the tune of 20,000 miles/year. My son is autistic and currently crazy about all things cars. Every time the hood goes up on the Suburban he drags over his little ladder so he can help dad. Nora's big project was cleaning and painting the drive shaft when it was out for new u-joints. I'm a pretty lucky guy.

I've been thinking it would be nice to add a car to the lineup eventually and have been 'browsing' drivers. Anything classic I own - from old Browning Superposed o/u shotguns, the '78 Suburban, the '71 Suburban I owned before, some pretty valuable classic fly rods - gets used. I won't be any different if a new old car comes home to the farm. While not necessarily daily driven, I'll take it to work a few times a week and run errands around our small town in it. And family drives, of course.

I've always had an interest in BOP cars (and Mercurys... ) from the early '60s. '63 Wildcat, '62 Meteor, '64 Catalina, '64 Comet, '63 Starfire, etc. But the cars I've always had an eye for are the 1963 F-85s and Cutlasses. My family owned a bunch of later Oldsmobiles when I was growing up, so I always thought I'd eventually own an Olds. I do know the challenges that the 'compact' BOP cars pose, but I'm smitten and enjoy a challenge. We're blessed with miles and miles of two-lane black top and well maintained dirt roads with spectacular scenery here, and I think a small '63 Olds could be set up to be a fun and enjoyable way to scoot through the countryside. It would be fun to eventually build a hot little 215 and tweak the suspension to zip along through the dairy farms and state forests with the kids beaming in the back, Samantha with her feet out the window. Stuff we already do at a much, much more leisurely pace in the Suburban.

So I'll be lurking and learning, making a plan, and keeping an eye out for the 'right' 4-speed '63 F85 driver to come home to Pennsylvania. Hopefully the right one will come along before it's time to teach Spencer and Nora how to drive. There is lots of great info here for this somewhat obscure year/model. Gives me confidence that it won't be a lost battle if I find one to tinker with.

Here's a general thought on where I'd like to go with a '63, so this is the sort of things I'd be asking/researching.

1. Buy a clean 4-speed car. Drive it. Have fun.

In the meantime, get organized and ...

2. Buy a Rover block and hop it up a bit. Use traditional parts. Make it appear "Olds-school".
3. Higher rate coil springs.
4. Good shocks.
5. Sway bars, front and rear.
6. Upgrade Brakes.
7. Upgrade Rear End.
8. Transplant everything.
9. Go!!

That's the idea anyway! To be clear... if I end up with a really clean all-stock car, I'll likely restore to bone stock. If I find a driver that's been fiddled with a bit so that I wouldn't feel badly about modifying it, the general plan is to have something 'stock-plus' that's mostly authentic to the mid-60s and a bit more 'zippy'.

Again, great place you have here. I've already learned a lot just by lurking. Fingers crossed that I find the 'right' car to start with.

Best,
Ryan

 

You need to join the Facebook group- 1961-1963 Oldsmobile F-85/Cutlass group. That's where all the discussion about these cars is happening. Here it's pretty quiet. There's only a few of us. If it takes awhile to get accepted into the group, don't despair. That's normal. The group creator is the only person that approves people and he doesn't seem to go there much, but he usually gets it done eventually. I don't know why he doesn't make admins to take care of stuff like that.

 

Awww, man... FaceBook?! I can’t. I get anxious just thinking about it. I ended my Facebook days almost 10 years ago. It was a time sink for me. Like a rabbit hole. A never ending barrage of friends and family and groups to ‘keep up’ with...


With a young family (including an autistic son), a demanding job in power industry, and an acute addiction to chasing trout and steelhead with bamboo fly rods, my social media time has been paired down to just a few quality forums that coincide with my interests. Hopefully there will be a bit of traffic here. Maybe I’ll cave and do the Facebook group once there’s a car in the barn and a build going... but for now hopefully a guy or two with some thoughts and advice will stumble upon this post and share some knowledge.

Thanks for the lead though. It really is appreciated.

R

 

Good luck with your search. Definitely buy the nicest, most complete car you can afford. You probably know that the 61-63 cars have nearly no support in the aftermarket. There are no patch panels. There are no repro trim pieces. There are virtually no repro interior parts. Even normal wear replacements for mechanical parts can be hard to get and expensive when you find them. The 1963 cars have some one-year-only parts in the body, interior, and steering linkage. That isn't intended to discourage you, just to be sure you make an informed decision. I personally enjoy the hunt for parts. Others want a car that you can buy out of a catalog. I've had to buy complete parts cars to get items that I needed.

 

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. I was hoping you’d chime in. I’ve been reading and researching for weeks trying to narrow down a particular car to concentrate on. The ‘63 F-85/Cutlass keeps my interest, even with all the challenges. Most of the info I’ve gleaned has been from this forum which convinced me that a ‘63 project won’t be impossible, just a challenge. I think the car and the 215 is worth the effort.

Seems like everything that caught my eye was a challenge in one way or another... either because the car was somewhat obscure with low support or the car was rare but desirable and therefore priced out of my comfort zone. The “also-ran’ list that has come up behind a ‘63 Olds include a ‘62-‘65 Mercury Comet, a ‘63 Buick Wildcat, a ‘62-‘63 Mercury Meteor, a ‘62-‘65 Pontiac Catalina, a ‘63-‘66 Plymouth Fury...

I could make things slightly easier by sliding to a ‘64-‘65 F-85/Cutlass... but I’m sorta hung up on a ‘63.

And 10-4 on finding the best car possible. I’m currently looking, but I’m also adding cash as I can to my car fund so that I can wait and afford a really clean car to start. Also determined to find a car with a manual (either stock or swapped) since I know my limitations and converting an automatic car to a stick is beyond my current skill set.

Does my plan above seem reasonable to make a fun car to scoot around rural PA?

 

I think you have a prudent plan, and personally I'm a big fan of non-mainstream vehicles. At an OCA Nationals, the A-body cars are like 69 Camaros at other car shows. You can only do so many different things with them. Now that the prices of the 64-72 cars have ballooned, there's a lot more interest in the Y-body cars. At 2700-2800 lbs, you don't need a lot of HP out of the 215 to have the same power-to-weight as a W-30. You're going to look long and hard for a manual trans version. You might consider getting an AT version and swapping the RH5 for a T5. The five speed is more fun to drive and D&D sells repro bellhousings.

 

Thanks, Joe. I have weights, HP/torque and potential power:weight ratios noted with all other pertinent info for each of the cars I have considered. It’s clear the F-85 with the 215 could really be hopped up into a quick, maneuverable car. Totally achievable. The only others on my list that would be similar are the ‘62-‘63 Mercury Comet or Meteor. Similar challenges with the Mercs as far as sheet metal and trim goes, but the drivetrains would actually be way easier. But... you know... Ford. Ha.

A swap to a T5 is certainly a possibility, but that would be a different kind of challenge. I’d need to shop that work, adding cost to the project and not having the satisfaction of doing the work myself... and that’s only if I could find someone to do the work here in central PA. I have enough knowledge and a support network to get through an engine build. I’m good enough at general wrenching, suspension work, electrical, etc. Body work and paint I have help to get through. But a tranny swap isn’t something I can pull off myself or with my normal supporting cast. Still... if a manual doesn’t pop up or a good buy comes along for clean automatic in the ‘right’ color... sure. I’ll figure out how to go about a swap.

This is gonna be fun!

Ryan

 

There is one for sale on central NJ craigslist.
Search on Olds Cutlass F85.

Good luck!!!

 

Thanks for the lead. I've been watching Craigslist... Can't seem to find that one in Central NJ...

 

It was on there last night, had to scroll way down. It is in Old Bridge, NJ. I'll try to get a link.

 

AH! Found it. It's a '62 and a project. Probably worth calling for some additional info. Thanks for the lead! Here's the link:

https://cnj.craigslist.org/pts/d/sou...186042170.html

 

I know that it's not your spec, but it's close. There is a really nice '63 Buick Skylark for sale right now with a 4 speed in it. It's pretty much the car you're looking for except the sheetmetal. I totally understand wanting what you want and that a Buick is not an Olds, but I thought I might throw it out there since it's so nice and has the 4 speed.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5247466177835/

 

Wow... that car is really clean. A true survivor. Spectacular. And a 4-speed! Except for the sheetmetal... yep. That's what I'm looking for. If anything, it's too clean. $22,500...

I'm pretty set on an Olds, but man... that's a 'get in and go' car. Just a bit beyond what I can drop on a car at this point. But I know I'll be thinking about it for a few days. Thanks for the lead!

R

 

I've been looking for the 'right' early '60s car for months. I've looked at everything and keep coming back to a '63 F-85. Everything else on the list - '63 Olds 88, '63 Buick Wildcat, '63 Skylark, the Mercuries - would be fun, but not first choice. There's something about this obscure Olds that really appeals to me and feels like the right fit for a fun car to tool around in. Something to share the daily-driver duties with my '78 K10 Suburban. I have a moment where I think a '64 or '65 Mercury Comet would be fun for my son and I to wrench on and drive around... but I keep coming back to this little Oldsmobile.

When I stumbled on this ad from this site from 2016 a few weeks back, I knew I could end up with the car I want. Clean T-5 5-speed swap and factory A/C.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-speed-107527/


Missed that one by a few years. Ha! But more google-box searching on the interwebs showed some clean cars that have come up over the years. These have 'the look'... whatever that is... But none were manual shift cars.

 

I understand your situation exactly!! That was me last year. After reviewing all the options that fit the specifications I set fro the project, it was the '62 F-85 that just repeatedly rung the bell. To make matters even worse, it had to be a convertible, it had to have a 4 speed, it had to be factory stock and unmodified, it had to be in a nice condition and in a color I liked. That was too easy so after looking for a few months I came to realize that it had to be a Cutlass too.

I was looking for the Holy Unicorn Grail. Once I realized how ridiculously rare this car was, I decided to accept an automatic car that I would then convert and looked at a few automatics. Then Uni-Grail presented itself with just one tiny little flaw. It needed a complete restoration. I had told myself that I wasn't going to do another restoration, but there it was, everything I wanted and all the boxes ticked off except the "nice condition" part. Anyhow, the car is now in my garage and the restoration will begin likely in the new year. I wanted what I wanted and this way I get to know everything about the car and ensure it's done to my standards. Some of the cars I looked at weren't.

So, good luck hunting!! '63 coupes show up pretty frequently, but the manual shift is very, very rare.

 

Good for you, man! And good luck when you start in on it. Hope you’ll do a restoration thread here so we can follow along and cheer for ya.

Let me ask this... just how bad is the factory automatic? I’ve been searching for a factory manual or a converted car not because I’m dead set on a stick, but because of what I’ve read about the RH5. Don’t get me wrong, I strongly, STRONGLY prefer three pedals, especially if I do some gentle hop-op mods to the engine... but is the automatic that horrible and something to be terrified of? Is the Buick auto any better? If the automatic is tolerable, I’d consider a slush box car to drive and enjoy with the idea to eventually swap in a tuned up mill and manual transmission.

If I can find someone local to give an assist with that swap!!...

 

They are indeed . In their 1963 factory tour brochure Oldsmobile , when talking about the Hydra Matic , stated that " more than 99 percent of new Oldsmobiles feature this accessory " . That means that manual shift , of any kind , would be less than one percent .

Here's the brochure ;
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...1963-a-127534/

 

Very cool, Charlie! I'll be reading through this at lunch today. And sorta reinforces the rareness of the stick in these cars. But... how bad is the automatic? I've read plenty that suggests it is problematic, weak, etc. But also found a few accounts that the 2nd "Super" gear was pretty fun and zipped you to speed quickly. Should I be afraid of an auto? Is the Buick tranny any better? There are quite a few nice driver cars around, all with the Hydra-Matic auto. Missed this $7,000 car a few weeks ago... It checked all the boxes except for the transmission.

 

I have the exact 4 speed production numbers for 62 and 63 at home. I can look it up later.

 

How about a 64 442 ( Not Mine ) 26,500
https://appleton.craigslist.org/cto/...189926135.html

 

That’s a beautiful car. Thanks for the suggestion, but I’m pretty set on a ‘63.

 

I understand, have a good time with the hunt. Just thought I would share in case it may have been of interest

Keith

 

Oh it’s of interest! The ‘64s have great lines and have a great history. But the ‘63 F-85s have my attention for a couple of reasons. The obscurity, the challenge, the small size/light weight, the potential to do some modest performance improvements, the looks... and the price of entry. We’re just not in a position to drop a ton of money on a project/fun car right now. We’re kinda in the $7,000-$10,000 bracket. The models I’ve been looking at... ‘62-‘65 Mercury Comet or Meteor, ‘63-‘64 Olds 88, ‘63 Buick Wildcat, ‘63 Buick Special/Skylark, and the ‘63 F-85/Cutlass... you can get into a pretty nice car for under $10k.

And Spencer, who is on the Spectrum, seems to like the ‘63 Olds the best. So do I.

There are some nice cars available at the moment. All automatic transmission cars. Still hoping to hear some firsthand accounts of the Roto Hydra-Matic or Buick auto in the Y-body cars. Lots of internet opinions out there. Just looking for some additional input.

Cheers.
Ryan

 

The Roto 5 is actually a pretty efficient automatic transmission. It would be decades before GM would build one better in terms of efficiency. They also offer great engine braking. I drove one that was working well and I liked it just fine. I was expecting an awful slush box with fuzzy logic and clunky shifts from what I'd read, but that was not the case.

The problems are; they are finicky for adjustments I guess. If not adjusted right, it will give you problems. Finding a shop to work on it and actually know what they're doing is few and far between, but there are still people that understand and build them. New parts for them are getting very scarce, but used parts are practically free as there are lots of these transmissions still sitting around that people don't want. A rebuild is about $3000. They do have internal problems do to the design, I think with regards to overheating and were a warranty headache for Oldsmobile back in the day. I believe there were some upgrades internally, so if you do get one rebuilt look into that.

The other big complaint is, they are weak by today's standard, so if you have dreams of hundreds and hundreds of HP, or towing a camping trailer, they may not be so good. The Buick transmissions aren't any better I think. Those guys all seem to be looking for a replacement too.

I personally wouldn't not buy the right car just because of the Roto 5, I almost did buy one. Conversions are possible, but yes they are a fair bit of work and some of the factory parts are hard to source, but not impossible. I've seen two parts cars come and go with complete 4 speed set ups in them in the last year. In both of those cases you would have to buy the whole car though and be willing to have the car moved. There are also folks working on aftermarket solutions. I know that Bob Knoss is working on a hydraulic clutch set up and Steve Schroeder is working on some sort of pedal set. The bell housing, flywheel, clutch, transmission and shifter can already be purchased aftermarket, but some of it is NOT cheap.

 

Since you asked about experience with " Slim Jim " transmissions , I can tell you this .
I worked as an auto mechanic from 1966 Thru 1985 when I cross trained into Diesel trucks and buses .
Back when Slim Jims were in vogue the biggest problems , by far , were with the model 10's in the big cars .
As I remember , the model 5's in the cutlass were much more reliable . Even though the model 5 was a smaller trans .
The F-85 was a very light car . 2700 # or so and had a small engine of less than 300 ft lbs torque .
The model 10 Slim Jims were used in the Catalinas and Olds 88's , with over 4000 # of weight and 440 ft lbs torque .
The model 10's were overstressed , broke often , and earned a bad reputation .

The biggest problem with them today is a lack of qualified service for them . There are only a few shops across this country with the tools and expertise to work on them .
The Buick " dual path " trans is in the same boat .

 

Wow. Thanks, gents. That’s pretty great feedback from guys with direct experience with these. So much of the bad press on the interwebs seems to come from guys regurgitating something they read somewhere else on the internet. Sheesh! So I guess I’m not so terrified of this transmission anymore...

I’d still prefer a manual gearbox, but I’d also prefer having a car to not having one. Ha.

Follow up questions:
Will the RH5 and the F-85’s rear end be up to handling, say, 250-275hp?

What’s the driving experience like for this car with a healthy stock 215 and the auto? Sporty? Powerful? We’ll get to the bingo hall when we get to the bingo hall? I’ve always found a manual gearbox to feel more ‘performance-like’ than a slush box, but some autos are pretty darn good too.

Is it within the realm of possibilities for a generally handy guy to rebuild one of these on his bench? I feel absolutely confident that the shops here in Honky Tonk, Pennsylvania ain’t gonna be up for handling one of these. (We do have a bunch of guys handy with Oliver and Ferguson tractors though...)

Funny... I’ve come across a few ‘63 convertibles with 4-speeds in the last week or so, but I’m really just not into a rag top.

Been looking at every bombed-out hulk of a ‘61-‘63 Buick Special or Olds F-85 hoping one might be a good organ donor for a swap. No luck there yet.

But... there have been some nice auto tranny cars come up.

Top-shelf... but priced beyond my means at $15,500. Voorhees, NJ - Facebook Marketplace. Gonna buy some lottery tickets in the morning.




$7000 Rochester, NY - FB Marketplace. Has stock wheels and caps too. Not too keen on the color but looks clean.







$5000 barn find in Bend, OR. Running but needs some work to be a driver.









So they’re out there. It’d be nice to be able to drive before buying, but all my vintage SUVs were bought from a distance and transported. The right car is out there.

This stuff is fun, eh?

R

 

The nice restored one and the blue one have been on the market for awhile now if these ads are current. I haven't seen the one in Oregon before, but they're asking too much IMO. I'd much rather have the blue one, but ultimately the restored pretty one is actually the best bargain likely. That's the one I would be interested in if the goal was a nice car to show.

 

Yeah, the red one is stunning. I’d be a bit nervous with it as a driver. Show car, sure. But I’m interested in driving whatever I own. (I’ve been putting off painting the Suburban since I’m afraid shiny new paint would keep me from using it as a truck...) Love the look of this one though. Agree it’s most likely the best bargain around at the moment. Could probably be had for a bit less than asking, but likely not enough less. Ha.

The blue one is a driver. That’s about the condition I’d be happy with. Not keen on the color... maybe it’s the aftermarket wheels... or the white interior... or the lack or a contrasting color top... But if it’s mechanically good and any rust isn’t too extensive, this would be a fun car to drive and tinker with with Spencer. Says it sat for a while but is now driven daily. Seems complete. Only about 3.5 hours from us... Might call. Wonder how long it’s been listed. Might-could be hard for $5,500. I’d learn to live with the Cirrus Blue at that price.

The Oregon car looks like a great start for a full restoration... but agree that’s likely too much money. Plus I don’t have the time or means do do a frame-off. Plus transportation, etc. You could dump $2,000 into it and still not be to the level of the blue car.

Some others are around that I’ve dismissed for one reason or another. Condition, completeness, price, etc. I searched for 8 months to find my current Suburban. I’ll wait for the right ‘63 Olds. That white car with the black top up in post #18 for $7,000 would be in Pennsylvania had I seen it!

 

Apparently you need a Facebook account to contact sellers on the Marketplace... 😑

 

55k original miles, runs and drives but needs head gaskets, located in upstate NY, $6,000 OBO good shape and all original, No low *****!

Hmmmm....

 

This one's a pig in a poke .
It could need a head gasket , it could need much more .
At a minimum , it will need both heads pulled and planed .
Then you MAW do a valve job .
This is assuming the block deck surfaces are OK .
If they aren't then the engine must removed and dismantled to have the block " decked " .
You could easily spend another $6000 getting this $6000 car running properly . Especially if you don't do your own assembly and disassembly .

 

Completely agree, Charlie. With unknown issues I’d have to get this for a real bargain. As you say, if the heads are coming off, I might as well do a full rebuild and push any plans I had for slight engine performance mods right to the beginning. I’m not sure I’m up for that right off the bat, even though I do know a machinist/engine builder that would help out and I’d do the assembly.

We’re actual, real life “shade tree” mechanics here. Our 1860 farmhouse and 30+ acres lacks a barn or garage... A situation we’re going to be remedying soon. But the shade tree deal works well for Spencer and I for general wrench turning. We’ve done tuneups, replaced fuel pumps, rebuilt a carb, replaced full duel exhaust, suspension work... But for something like this the car would need to go to our mechanic friend for the duration. He’s an hour away, so Spence and I wouldn’t be able to have our hands in it all the time. Which is sort of the point of all of this.

Looks to be a pretty clean car otherwise. At least the seller was transparent about the head gasket issues.

R

 

I think $6,000 for a car that needs head gaskets is a little steep ( If it really needs them???) .The 61-63 F-85's were famous for overheating even when they were new. One big problem with them was the radiator clogging up.

 

My dad had a 1961 Buick Special with basically the same 215 aluminum engine .
He bought it used in 1962 with low miles . And drove it for 143,000 miles until he traded it for a new Camaro in 1967 .
About a year or so after he bought the car , the engine block had to be replaced .
In the ensuing years , head gaskets and sometimes cylinder heads had to be replaced several times .

 

Terrific... 😑

Of course one could look at it like evolution. All the weak and problematic examples have long since died off. Only the strong survive and such.

😬

 

Olds. versions of the 215 are different than the Buick. Olds. ran a little lower compression and had more head bolts than Buick. I never owned the Buick and my experiance was only with Olds. My biggest problem with heat was due to clogged radiators.
When these cars were new they didn't have the knowledge they do today pertaining to the coolant and the aluminum like they do now.
They aren't bad cars they just have their quirks like any thing new and different. One being cooling and the second is driveshaft constant velocity joints.

 

Yeah , I remember dad having a problem with a CV driveshaft joint too .
RyanAK , unless this will be a daily driver , You will not put 140.000 miles on it in 5 years . Like my dad did .
With limited hobby use you may never even encounter these problems .

 

Yeah, 10-4. I’m not overly worried. I may end up putting 5,000-10,000 miles a year on it if it’s a good runner. The primary vehicle will remain the ‘78 Suburban... which has its own foibles. Having you guys pass along knowledge goes a long way for knowing what to expect with a ‘63 F-85 and we can keep an eye on things.

CV joint, huh? At least it’s in the middle of the drive shaft. The Suburban has full-time 4WD and half of the front CV joint is attached to the output shaft of the NP203 transfer case. It’s a PITA to fix. This era truck is known for eating CV joints and then producing wear on the transfer case. So much so that most owners of these rigs over the last 42+ years have converted their case to part-time 4WD or swapped in an NP205.

Engine cooling, Roto 5 transmission, driveshaft CV, lack of aftermarket support for sheet metal and trim... what else? This is sounding like a good time! 😎

Someone once said I choose to restore an Oldsmobile. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Ha.

Has anyone following along hopped up one of these little 215s? Also, with the compression I’m assuming that they need the premium go-juice.

 

The biggest problem seems to be the radiator. The factory radiator is insufficient in certain situations. I think mostly low speed idling like in a summer parade or stop and go traffic is the killer. People now either put in an after market radiator, or have the factory one re-cored with more modern multicore radiators. The other modification is swapping the fan out from the factory four blade to either a five blade, or six blade. Running modern coolant, a good cap and an over flow reservoir helps to make it more maintenance free. I think most run a 180 degree thermostat.

 

Wow! Thanks, man. Great info. This place is a great resource. Seems pretty straightforward: Cap, jug, aluminum-friendly coolant, the right T-stat, service or upgrade the radiator.

Fans. Amazing how something so simple can have such a huge impact on our vehicles. The worst fans self-destruct and take out everything in their path. Only slightly better are those inefficient designs that don’t draw air well and/or rob huge amounts of power from the mill. The best find a way to keep things cool without being an overburden. Tough requirements.

One thing I noticed: neither the Olds nor the Buicks used a fan shroud. I know things are tight under the hood, but the right shroud can make a huge impact on a fan/radiator’s ability to transfer heat.

Anyway... thanks to all for the continuing education. I’m jumping into this with much more confidence.

Now... need the right car to pop up...