Hi There, I was winning bidder on a 442, and I am planning on picking it up on Friday 8/22, so I look forward to learning more about the cars and people on this site soon. However I am now thinking that perhaps this is a clone. any opinions/feedback is much appreciated! (at minimum it appears the dash may be from a prior year with a 2 speed tranny because the tranny indicator shows DL instead of DSL?) Thank you! Brent
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390906643655...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I think this is what the 67 experts are going to want to look at:

 

I'd like to see which "numbers" "match."

Did they provide any documentation whatsoever that this is an original car? (None is mentioned in the listing).

Rough values of 1967 Cutlass Supreme convertibles in pretty condition,
without 4-4-2 package: $10-14,000 and
with 4-4-2 package: $25-35,000

Welcome to ClassicOlds.

- Eric

 

Being a Fremont built car, the body tag will not document it as a 442. The seller claims twice that it has the original engine, misidentified as the L69 which is the Tri-Carb motor. The seller should be asked for proof of this. Of course this should have been asked before the purchase. The POP would contain proof the car was a 442 and the pretty much that the engine is original. Or not.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Once again, Oldsmobile didn't start stamping the block and trans with a VIN derivative until the 1968 model year, so there are NO numbers that "match" on a 67.

There are, however, many more things in this ad that scream "danger Will Robinson"...

Uh, no. The L69 was the 1966-only 3x2 bbl setup. It was NOT available from the factory in the 1967 model year, so I am struggling to understand how this is "matching correct." Do you see any "L69" RPO code in the 1967 SPECS booklet:



Now, 350 HP was the factory rating for the L78 442 option engine:



The dash also bothers me. The TH400 was only available on a real 442 in 1967. Lesser Cutlii got the two speed Jetaway. Was the dash on this car changed, or the engine and trans?

Naturally, this car has every option known to mankind. How many were added during the restoration (or cloning), and how well was the work done.

And finally, I got a real kick out of this:

and this:

"Luxury LIKE"?????

As noted, only the cowl tag can prove the reality of the car - assuming it isn't a Fremont car, at which point you're on your own.

 

I notice the heads do not have provisions for smog plumbing and being a Fremont car I would think they should at least be drilled, tapped and plugged?????????????

Good looking car anyway.

Henry

 

A.I.R. was only required on cars sold in the state of CA. Fremont built cars sold in other western states, which did not require A.I.R.

 

Has any money changed hands yet?

- Eric

 

In 1966 Fremont assembled cars for out of state deliveries do have drilled, tapped and plugged heads and and also received the tall oil filler tube. I have 3 Fremont 66's that are so equipped. I'm just not sure about the 67 model year.

Henry

 

For some reason, the first time I opened the ebay ad, I didn't get all the photos to load, so now I've seen the cowl tag (NATURALLY it's a Fremont car...) and the black plates. Of course, if the car was delivered to, say NV, then brought back to CA in 1968, it would still have gotten black plates, so jury is out on the lack of A.I.R.

Note also that the crank and water pump pulleys have three grooves, but only two are being used. And clearly the engine has been rebuilt at some point, given how shiny the freeze plugs are.

Other points are the late model 12SI alternator and the red junction block on the LH inner fender (that looks like the one in my 93 Allante). Of course, the big 442 emblem on the radio delete plate isn't factory, either (and both the emblem and the delete plate are available as repros).

It's a nice looking car, however.

 

Didn't know that, thanks.

 

I'm not sure.....but it sounds like the deal is done.

 

Though there is still plenty to question on this car, there *are* engine numbers to match in '67. On the POP is the engine unit number. The V2xxxxxG series is unique to the 442, also. So the POP would be able to verify a 442 *and* a "numbers matching" engine if someone is inclined to use that totally oblique term. Sure it means for certain only the head where the number is, but the VIN on the block means only the block is. But there is a number to match to something in '67.
My money is the seller not having a clue, as are most that use the term "Numbers matching". To me when someone uses that term, it means "I don't know".

 

FWIW: my Fremont built Feb. '67 Cutlass Supreme , delivered NEW to Las Vegas, NV 330 4bbl has drilled/tapped/plugged heads.

 

Agreed, but I don't see a P-O-P anywhere in all those photos.

 

I have had several Fremont cars some with and some without drilled heads. So, not sure that is all true. Some of which were veryifed original cars.

 

It does have the fuel return line and it is not an AC car, it has the Turbo 400 trans. I am leaning toward a real 442. If no $$ exchanged hands yet I would think twice and see if more concrete proof can be had. I would never trash the PRNDSL for a mint PRNDL dash bezel.

 

Ok, the bulb just went on. Someone installed the Rally Pack and could not find the correct shift bezel so installed the PRNDL one. My 67 TC had this same setup and I am sure it is a realTC with 400 Eblock and Turbo 400 trans.

 

based on what's shown in the auction:
At a minimum it's a Cutlass Supreme 330 4bbl Jetaway convertible in triple-black
Next possibility is Cutlass Supreme 400 2bbl TH400 "turnpike cruiser" convertible in triple-black
Top of the heap it's a Cutlass Supreme 400 4bbl TH400 "442" convertible in triple black

? extra belt groove on crank & water pump pulleys would drive air-pump
?? picture of the engine before rebuild shows the correct curved air-pump oil fill tube
??? head date shown is 104 (Friday, 4/14) or 204 (Sunday, 7/23) if it's a '67 calendar year head, neither is correct for the car, maybe the drilled heads went away a long time ago

things to check:
casting date on block
code & date on the TH400
rear axle w/sway bar & boxed control arms - What's the code on the axle?
dates on exhaust manifolds

The price the auction ended at seems appropriate for a "clone" & a steal if an authentic 442!

 

The PRNDSL "dial" is attached to the chromed plastic bezel, so it could be kept even if the bezel were changed.

 

besides the WHEELS the SHIFT INDICATOR and the poorly placed 442 EMBLEM on the radio delete plate (is that an original or reproduction with the sink spots where the screw bosses are?) - there are no "red flags" ..... does that make it an authentic 442 or a clone?

is that a 390390 intake & is there a date on them?