performance motors

Hi Olds fans! My name is J.R. and I own Performance motors in the n/w suburbs of Chicago! We are a full service , kick *** restorationand and sales facility specializing in the awesome muscle cars of the 60"s and the 70"s and we have a problem! We recently acquired a 1972 olds cutlass with a 455 with the ga heads and the w30 manifold. I don't have the build sheet but, I do have the original dealer invoice and on it, it says that this car was ordered from the factory with a hurst olds option package at $432.60 and then was delivered to Valley olds in Roanoke Va. on May 16, 1972 where it recieved another Hurst package for $695. There is a u in the V.I.N. and no w45 on the data tag where the paint code should be. I know some dealers cloned these cars in 72 because there was a high demand, I'm just wondering what the dealer installed options were.There is also a Indy pace car emblem on the dash and fiberglass 1/4 panels? Please Help!

2blu442

Sorry, I don't enough about these to help. But will bring your post back to the top for others to see. John

performance motors

Thanks John. I hope someone here can help me or maybe give some direction to someone who can. It's a solid car other than floors, 1/4's, and interior and we are gonna restore it either way but, I would like to know why it came from the factory with all the hurst options (according to original dealer invoice) but no w45 on the trim tag. Someone help me please!!!!

GAOldsman

Hmm "U" in VIN means it wasn't born a W30, so intake was added after factory build. Does the VIN on the documents match the car? If so could you post the documents, some pics of the car, rear end code (two letters for diff code, O for Oldsmobile and a date code on the right front inboard side of the rear end) as well as the cowl tag info? We'll see if we can help you

Scot

performance motors

Thanks Scot. I will do it 1st thing in the morning.

GAOldsman

Sounds good J.R.

Allan R

J.R.
1. All W30 cars were built at Lansing so the VIN should start 3F77X2M, 3G87X2M, 3G57X2M, or 3G67X2M. The cowl tag should have LAN on it in the ST-72 line.

2. You will not find a Lansing Build sheet for this car. You may find smaller broadcast cards under seats, on the gas tank, under carpet, behind kick panels, under rear parcel shelf. That will help give some idea of the actual build date and some of the Fisher options it had.

3. If the cowl tag does not have W45 - plain and simple it's NOT a Hurst Olds. Badging can be put on any car to give it sales appeal. The Fisher plant put that W45 or W46 code onto the tags for the cars that were ordered for HO production. So, if it isn't there? Not the real McCoy. Another thing, if it was an HO, it should be paint code 11 / 11 or A / 11. Also, production dates should be in the range of late March to early April 1972


4. Yes you are right that the dealers could install the 455 aluminum intake. Cost them a lot less to do it than the average Joe. I don't know that it's correct to call it a W30 manifold though. You could put it on a T, U or X code 455 and that alone doesn't qualify it as a W30.


5. HO packages. Can you post a scan of what you're describing? I suspect that the invoice will show inclusion of:
G91- 3.23:1 Rear Axle ratio;
L75 455 CID engine. The L75 engine was a 250 net horsepower engine.
D35- sport mirrors;
FE2- Rallye Suspension;
JL2- power disc brakes;
N10- dual exhaust with trumpets;
W25- Force Air hood (excluding paint stripe);
W26- console with Hurst Shifter.
Y72 - HD cooling with or without A/C

The W46 option had the X code 455 (designate L77) with 300 hp
G92 Posi trac 3:42 rear
Heavy Duty Rad
NO A/C
and all the other options listed above with the W45

1969w3155

Except that the "X" code in the vin does mean that it is a W30, as that was the engine code for the W30.

performance motors

It does have the lan in the vin, but no x, as well as the 11 11 on the data plate. on the dealer invoice that looks to be original. It says hurst olds option including outside styled sports mirrors, ralley susp. pkg. 455 cu. in. 4bbl engine, 3.23 to 1 perf. axle. power disc brakes, dual exhaust with trumpets, forced air induction system and sports console with hurst dual gate shifter. I will scan and post this invoice tomorrow. The total was $18.00 and $414.60. It has that intake with the G a heads and the carb #s come back to a w30 w a 4 spd. It also has a dealer installed hurst olds package for $695.oo but doesnt specify what it is. It also says Cutlass Sup. ht. cpe. HO on the invoice. I don't get it!

1969w3155

From the Hurst/Olds website, read the last couple of paragraphs on dealer installations.

BODY BY FISHER
ST 72 34267 LAN 123456 BDY
TR 970 11 A PNT
O4B A51 W45 .

GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION
CERTIFIES TO THE DEALER THAT THIS
VEHICLE CONFORMS TO ALL US FEDERAL
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS
APPLICABLE AT TIME OF MANUFACTURE

ST 72 1972 production year
3 Oldsmobile Division
42 Cutlass Supreme body
67 Convertible Coupe
NOTE- 57 is for the Supreme
Notch back- Hardtop Coupe
LAN Lansing Assembly Plant
123456BDY Body sequential number
TR 970 Black vinyl interior
11 A PNT White lower body paint, white
convertible top.
NOTE- 11 11 would designate
white paint upper and lower
body.
04B Date code- 4

factory-produced H/O’s.

performance motors

I read that article. I'm just wondering why on the supposed real dealer invoice that I have in my possession, does it say it was delivered with all the Hurst Olds options, the Cutlass Sup.HT Cpe. HO in the description, and what the 695.00 dealer installed Hurst olds pckg. could have been? Maybe the dealer installed the w30 intake, heads, carb, and exhaust manifolds?

performance motors

I tried to upload that dealer invoice. I'm not good with computers! Hope it works!

GAOldsman

J.R. what that shows is that the dealer installed the H/O package instead of being factory installed as mentioned before, thus the $695.00 for the "dealer installed accessories" None the less it is still documented and that document means the world between reality and just word of mouth. So in my opinion I think it's worth more than a standard Cutlass Supreme but a little less than a W45 factory build. I for one would like to see pics of it and I personally think it is BAD @$$

rocketraider

Valley is still in business as a Cadillac-BMW dealer at the Franklin Road location but I haven't been in that dealership in years, and have no idea who to tell you to contact there.

I know it's risky calling someone out of the blue, but it's worth a try to contact the original owners listed on the invoice. I've done that a couple times and found some amazing information on some of my cars.

jaunty75

Doing a White Pages search on the name on that invoice, Basil G. Jennings, for Roanoke, Virginia turns up a Basil G. Jennings, 93 years old, living in Abingdon, Virginia, which is about two hours down I-81.

It might be the same guy. Basil Jennings is not the most common name, he has the same middle initial, and the age is right. He would have been 53 when he bought the car. It would have been a good, mid-life crisis type of car to get.

performance motors

This car is definatly a head scratcher! I.m going to go out in the shop and get some detailed pics of the car . I have to move some cars around so, it might take an hour or two. I'm wondering why on the left side of this invoice it says Hurst olds. option and in the description it says Cutlass Sup. HT Cpe. HO?

rocketraider

I think I'd lean toward Basil G Jennings Jr, aged 67, in Tarboro NC whose spouse is Mary R. He'd have been 27 when he bought it which was the age market those cars were aimed at.

jaunty75

Good point. This occurred to me, too, except that Tarboro is quite a bit farther from Roanoke. But people move all around.

performance motors

Here is the data plate and some other pics. of the car. The rear end reads sr0116 on the axle tube and 407296 near the yoke. It is an od code trans with the double hump crossmember.

rocketraider

Look on the roof and see if there's any outline of the Hurst half-vinyl roof. You should see molding clip studs right over the side window dividers.

I'm wondering if that $695 charge was to install a Hurst-style top, though that seems pretty expensive for a vinyl top job in 1972.

Try running that VIN thru the Hurst/Olds Club. I think they have all the 1972 VINs. That would at least tell you if it was done at Demmer or by the dealer. www.hurstolds.com

performance motors

At one time it had the half vinyl roof cuz you can see the where the studs were before being covered before a paint job

GAOldsman

Cool

SR = 3.23:1 gears which is consistent with the H/O build

O = Oldsmobile

116 = date built (rear) which I believe is 116th day of '72 also consistent with H/O build

performance motors

I looked at hurtsolds.com and didnt find a link to run the vin. I think its a dealer clone and am wondering about the hurst package from the factory and the dealer added hurst package. If the dealer did clone this thing, they went w30 everything! How rare would that make it?

GAOldsman

It does have the Cutlass Supreme grilles instead of the H/O grilles. I'd like to see a pic of the deck lid as well as the interior. And yes this car was built by the factory to be converted to an H/O by the dealer, unfortunately not by Demmer. As I stated before, still a great car! I would laminate that document and put it in a binder as well as document your restoration with lots of detailed pics.

Allan R

Agreed, the documentation helps with the cars provenance. But it clearly shows the car was a 4257 with a U code motor out of the factory. The addition of the dealer options makes it look more like a HO. Far as I know, they could also have added the HO vinyl roof at the body shop. The regular vinyl roof would have been full coverage.

All HO's were based on the 4257 or 4267 bodies. That's the Cutlass Supreme HT and vert. HO options were typically ordered through the factory. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to type out what the Hurst option package included and put it on an invoice. Dealer could make more money on installing that option package than it would cost to order from the factory. FWIW, I looked for the option package you're describing in the 1972 Olds SPECS guide and it's not there. It's not even in the 72 Dealer Ordering Guide. It does have the W30 option though

I guess it just depends on what your plans are for the car. If you're planning on representing it as an HO clone, it's all good. If you're planning on it being a W30 car, it isn't that either, as Dan pointed out.

performance motors

I'm not gonna represent it other than what it really is. As far as I know, it's a Hurst olds dealer clone with a bunch of w30 parts! Sound good?

GAOldsman

I would represent it as a period "Dealer installed" Hurst Olds with documentation.

performance motors

as far as the front clip goes, it looks to have been replaced due to poor alignment and missing bolts. Here is the trunk. I'm dropping the gas tank anyway just to see if anything is there.

performance motors

A dealer installed hurst olds with doc. sounds much better. This thing runs like a scalded dog and if anyone is interested, I'll sell it as is.

Allan R

Perfect!

I applaud your statement. You sound like the kind of person who is dedicated to producing quality and correct details for a kick *** product you want others to appreciate. That speaks volumes to your business ethics and commitments. Thanks for being stand up on your build!

Don't take it the wrong way. You prolly know that within your industry there are sooo many others out there who claim "original" "factory correct" "all numbers matching" etc when they're clearly not. People who haven't done their homework and hope they can pass of thier 1 of 0 BS to an unsuspecting market. If they would just say resto mod, or re-creation or something that lets others know it's not true to original.

GAOldsman

Yep the deck lid wouldn't have been drilled for the O-L-D-S-M-O-B-I-L-E emblems either on a Demmer built H/O.

What are you asking for it?

performance motors

I couldnt sleep at nite if I did that! I've been restoring muscle cars for 20 plus years and you think you've seen it all.....

performance motors

I have to get 13 out of it. It only needs floors, 1/4's, outer wheel houses, and interior kit. all seats, console and shifter are present. Someone cut out the wheel lip and grafted fiberglass 1/4's over the originals (for drag racing for tire clearance maybe?) But the trunk floor, drop offs and rockers are solid. I dont know why but, you never know why they did anything back then. Its a #'s matching motor with Ga heads, w and z exhaust manifolds, a w30 4spd carb and some other w30 stuff. whoever did this car did a damn fine job!

Allan R

Scot, the HO used CS grills that were blacked out - just like the tail lights. No silver on the eggcrates, and no silver around the lenses. Admittedly not a hard thing to clean and paint.

allyolds68

There's a lot of documentation out there for dealer installed 72 H/O packages. Here's another guy on ROP with a sunroof car. Don't ask me how you could have a 72 car that wasn't a H/O but this guy has one. I didn't think you could get a sunroof in anything except a H/O

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=49307&highlight=hurst+w45++dealer

performance motors

Is there anyone out there that would know? This car looks to be all original with alot of w30 stuff on it.

rocketraider

1972 Hurst vinyl roofs were half roofs- they covered from the side window divider bars back. Always thought they looked tacked on, but it was the style back then.

It was mid to late 70s before the Monroney label became mandatory on a new car. Sure, most cars came with a window sticker, but more often than not the dealer sales invoice looked very much like the one Valley put with this car.

rocketraider

Click on their club contacts button and route the request to Judy Badgley. Explain it to her as you have to us including the invoice. She or the 1972 advisor should be able to enlighten you further.

performance motors

You can see where the studs were before a bad paint job right across the roof even with the front of the back windows.

performance motors

In the file I got with the car and yes, it's quite extensive, there is an e-mail to Judy in march of this year by the guy that I bought it from that gives all the w30 options that this car has, the carb, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, trans code, axle code, double tire sticker in glove box, etc. and all she had to say was "if theres no x in the vin, it's not a w30" But what I want to know is why it was delivered to Valley olds. with a $18.00 and a $414.60 hurst option from the factory and a $695.00 hurst package from the dealer with no w45 on the original trim tag?