Are you driving my dad's '72?
March 19th, 2014, 07:08 AM
#1
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Hello! Are you driving my dad's '72?
My father, Terence MacLaverty, passed away 10 years ago. In a fit of nostalgia, I was digging through some of his old documents and located a Wholesale Car Order Form and a Dealer Car Order Form from Lennertz Oldsmobile in Merrillville, Indiana. The car in question is a 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S 442 (vin#3G87M2Z124909). It was silver with black stripes. My father loved it very much and always regretted not keeping it. He made me an enormous 442 fan from a young age, and I have subsequently wanted one for many years. If you have any information regarding this car, i.e. you own it, you know who owns it, you know someone who used to own it, or you know someone who could know something about it, please contact me or forward this information to the applicable persons. Obviously, I would love to purchase this car if it is available, but I would at least like to know where it is and who's enjoying it. One big point or incentive for the current owner: you may not have proof (in '72 it was a dealer option not shown in the vin) that your 442 is real... I've got the documents that prove it!
Last edited by morganmaclaverty; March 19th, 2014 at 09:40 AM.
March 19th, 2014, 07:12 AM
#2
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When did your father last own the car, or, at least, when he did he last know of its whereabouts? Where was it? In Indiana?
If it was 30 years ago, the odds of finding it are probably close to zero. But if it was just within the last few years, you might be able to track it down by checking with the person who bought it from you, etc.
In rereading your post, it's obvious that it has to have been at least 10 years ago that your father last had any chance of knowing anything about it, so I'm guessing it's fairly long ago that he had the car. In that case, like I said, I think the odds of finding it are low.
If it was 30 years ago, the odds of finding it are probably close to zero. But if it was just within the last few years, you might be able to track it down by checking with the person who bought it from you, etc.
In rereading your post, it's obvious that it has to have been at least 10 years ago that your father last had any chance of knowing anything about it, so I'm guessing it's fairly long ago that he had the car. In that case, like I said, I think the odds of finding it are low.
Last edited by jaunty75; March 19th, 2014 at 07:49 AM.
March 19th, 2014, 07:58 AM
#4
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One thing you could try to the extent possible is checking each state's dmv website to see if they offer a title search feature. You could do this, at least, for the state where the car was last known to be and perhaps the states around it.
Ohio, for one, allows searching on a car's VIN:
https://ext.dps.state.oh.us/BMVOnlin...tleSearch.aspx
Go to that page and type in a car's VIN, and it will tell you if that car is currently registered in the state or if it was registered in the state at least since the time Ohio computerized its records. I did that just now for your father's car, and it turned up nothing. While not the result you might have hoped for, at least you know that's one state you can cross off the list.
I don't know if Indiana offers this service. If the car was last known to be in Indiana, you might call or visit a DMV office and just ask them if there is any way to determine if a car is registered in the state if you give them the VIN. Privacy laws being what they are, they might not be willing to give you any info on the owner if they do find it, but at least you might know that the car still exists and that it's in Indiana.
If Indiana turns up negative, you might try surrounding states. With Merrillville being relatively near both Illinois and Michigan, you might at least try those states.
Ohio, for one, allows searching on a car's VIN:
https://ext.dps.state.oh.us/BMVOnlin...tleSearch.aspx
Go to that page and type in a car's VIN, and it will tell you if that car is currently registered in the state or if it was registered in the state at least since the time Ohio computerized its records. I did that just now for your father's car, and it turned up nothing. While not the result you might have hoped for, at least you know that's one state you can cross off the list.
I don't know if Indiana offers this service. If the car was last known to be in Indiana, you might call or visit a DMV office and just ask them if there is any way to determine if a car is registered in the state if you give them the VIN. Privacy laws being what they are, they might not be willing to give you any info on the owner if they do find it, but at least you might know that the car still exists and that it's in Indiana.
If Indiana turns up negative, you might try surrounding states. With Merrillville being relatively near both Illinois and Michigan, you might at least try those states.
March 19th, 2014, 08:16 AM
#5
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I checked just now, and Illinois apparently offers a service similar to Ohio's.
http://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/
I put in your father's car's VIN, and it gave a rather odd answer about not being able to process the information with a phone number to call. You might try calling that number.
It's possible that the VIN couldn't be processed because it's an older VIN with fewer characters than what VIN's consist of nowadays. Since 1983 (I think), VIN's have been 17 characters. Back in 1972, they were 13 characters, so the Illinois system might not be programmed to handle them. Or it might be that they simply don't bother to computerize records for cars that old. Can't hurt to call that number, though.
I found this for Indiana title searches. It's not so friendly.
http://www.in.gov/ai/appfiles/bmv-lien/
Apparently you have to register and pay $95 per year for your account, and your search has to include both a VIN and a social security number. Since I'm guessing you don't know the SSN of the person who now owns the car, this search path is a dead end, at least through this site. In addition, your reason for the search has to match one of the reasons allowed under the "Driver Privacy Protection Act," and I don't see a reason that matches up with this situation.
Again, a call or visit to a DMV office might get you something you can't get through the website.
Michigan has a site similar to Ohio's.
http://services.sos.state.mi.us/autolostandfound/
Putting in this car's VIN turned up nothing.
One other thing to keep in mind in all of this is that, if it has been many years since this car left your family, it's entirely possible it's no longer on the road, and it might not exist any more at all. It could have been crushed and turned into a I-beam in a new building for all we know.
Being a 442, it's more likely to have been preserved, but you never know. Junkyards are full of junked or wrecked muscle cars, too.
http://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/
I put in your father's car's VIN, and it gave a rather odd answer about not being able to process the information with a phone number to call. You might try calling that number.
It's possible that the VIN couldn't be processed because it's an older VIN with fewer characters than what VIN's consist of nowadays. Since 1983 (I think), VIN's have been 17 characters. Back in 1972, they were 13 characters, so the Illinois system might not be programmed to handle them. Or it might be that they simply don't bother to computerize records for cars that old. Can't hurt to call that number, though.
I found this for Indiana title searches. It's not so friendly.
http://www.in.gov/ai/appfiles/bmv-lien/
Apparently you have to register and pay $95 per year for your account, and your search has to include both a VIN and a social security number. Since I'm guessing you don't know the SSN of the person who now owns the car, this search path is a dead end, at least through this site. In addition, your reason for the search has to match one of the reasons allowed under the "Driver Privacy Protection Act," and I don't see a reason that matches up with this situation.
Again, a call or visit to a DMV office might get you something you can't get through the website.
Michigan has a site similar to Ohio's.
http://services.sos.state.mi.us/autolostandfound/
Putting in this car's VIN turned up nothing.
One other thing to keep in mind in all of this is that, if it has been many years since this car left your family, it's entirely possible it's no longer on the road, and it might not exist any more at all. It could have been crushed and turned into a I-beam in a new building for all we know.
Being a 442, it's more likely to have been preserved, but you never know. Junkyards are full of junked or wrecked muscle cars, too.
March 19th, 2014, 08:46 AM
#6
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Being a 442, it's more likely to have been preserved, but you never know. Junkyards are full of junked or wrecked muscle cars, too.[/QUOTE]
Being a muscle car in the '80's didn't save them, as I personally parted out 2 complete 70 w30 cars, 64 442, lots of 68-69 442's, 70 GTO Judge, many 65-70 GTOs, a dozen or so Buick Skylark GS's, 69 GS stage 1, more 66-70 SS 396 cars than I can recall, 71 GMC Sprint 454, 70 MonteCarlo ss454, lots of RoadRunners/Chargers/SuperBees.
Lot of these cars were purchased from the local Austin Police Department Abandoned Vehicle Auctions for scrap value.
Henry
DBA Austin Auto and Truck Parts.
Being a muscle car in the '80's didn't save them, as I personally parted out 2 complete 70 w30 cars, 64 442, lots of 68-69 442's, 70 GTO Judge, many 65-70 GTOs, a dozen or so Buick Skylark GS's, 69 GS stage 1, more 66-70 SS 396 cars than I can recall, 71 GMC Sprint 454, 70 MonteCarlo ss454, lots of RoadRunners/Chargers/SuperBees.
Lot of these cars were purchased from the local Austin Police Department Abandoned Vehicle Auctions for scrap value.
Henry
DBA Austin Auto and Truck Parts.
March 19th, 2014, 09:21 AM
#8
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
The M code in the engine slot makes it a 350 4bbl with N10 dual exhausts (not cutout bumper though)
The Z code in the production plant makes it a Freemont build. There never was a '2' for Olds A body production plants back then.
Good luck with your search, I'm also partial to silver with black stripes. Did his car also have the A51 and D55 options?
Even though the car hasn't been found yet, any chance you can post pics of the documents that show it's order? Most of us never get the chance to see those.
Last edited by Allan R; March 19th, 2014 at 09:38 AM.
March 19th, 2014, 09:26 AM
#9
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Just also thought of something. DMV records generally don't go much past 10 years in most states, so the chances of finding a registration are slim if the car wasn't registered recently.
Second thing is the car may very well be living in a completely different state now, which compounds the issues of a registration search. If someone restored it and it's now a trailer queen I seriously doubt it would be road registered.
Second thing is the car may very well be living in a completely different state now, which compounds the issues of a registration search. If someone restored it and it's now a trailer queen I seriously doubt it would be road registered.
March 19th, 2014, 09:34 AM
#10
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Just also thought of something. DMV records generally don't go much past 10 years in most states, so the chances of finding a registration are slim if the car wasn't registered recently.
Second thing is the car may very well be living in a completely different state now, which compounds the issues of a registration search. If someone restored it and it's now a trailer queen I seriously doubt it would be road registered.
Second thing is the car may very well be living in a completely different state now, which compounds the issues of a registration search. If someone restored it and it's now a trailer queen I seriously doubt it would be road registered.
March 19th, 2014, 09:59 AM
#12
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Having the correct VIN still doesn't help at the Ohio, Michigan, or Illinois DMV sites. Too bad, but not surprising. Wouldn't it have been cool if it turned out to be there. I would still check Indiana if at all possible. It seems to me that the last state the car was known to be in is the first state in which to start a search.
March 19th, 2014, 10:26 AM
#13
Just an Olds Guy
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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
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Dan, the Indiana site requires a login ID (at least that's what happened when I tried it). I doubt it will have anything that the other DMV sites didn't.
morgan - I really appreciate the lengths you're going to try and find your Dad's car. I wish you a ton of luck, but in all honesty this is a real shot in the dark. Not saying it can't happen, because we hear about success stories too every so often.
Can you post scans of those docs you have?
morgan - I really appreciate the lengths you're going to try and find your Dad's car. I wish you a ton of luck, but in all honesty this is a real shot in the dark. Not saying it can't happen, because we hear about success stories too every so often.
Can you post scans of those docs you have?
March 19th, 2014, 10:48 AM
#14
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My guess is that, in the end, she won't find the car. There have been a number of these kinds of threads over the years where someone comes on this site looking for a car last seen decades ago, and I've yet to hear of any where the car of interest was found or at least what ultimately happened to it was determined.
But you never know. Someone might one day be the first.
But you never know. Someone might one day be the first.
March 19th, 2014, 11:46 AM
#16
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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Thank you Morgan!
I've never seen those docs before and I'm glad you could share them with us. They also go a long way to providing the provenance to a real 442 in 1972. (That's the W29 option listed on both cards). Without that information there's really no way to authenticate a real 442 for 72. uber uber cool! One thing I noticed was the D55 console on the Wholesale form, but the A51 Strato Bucket seats not listed..although it's penned in on the car order. The more I look at the options on this car, the more I hope you find it again. Most Cutlass S cars weren't produced with the L34, G80 axle, D55/A51 seating/console.
The car appears to have been very well optioned. Hard to believe that a 68 98 was only worth that much on a trade after only 3 or 4 years in service, isn't it?
The paint code BTW is exactly the same as mine - Sterling silver code 14 upper/lower
I see the order was March 31 of 72!! Wow, if it got into the system the next week it would have been built at exactly the same time as my car!! (April 7, 1972 - just that mine was Lansing)
I've never seen those docs before and I'm glad you could share them with us. They also go a long way to providing the provenance to a real 442 in 1972. (That's the W29 option listed on both cards). Without that information there's really no way to authenticate a real 442 for 72. uber uber cool! One thing I noticed was the D55 console on the Wholesale form, but the A51 Strato Bucket seats not listed..although it's penned in on the car order. The more I look at the options on this car, the more I hope you find it again. Most Cutlass S cars weren't produced with the L34, G80 axle, D55/A51 seating/console.
The car appears to have been very well optioned. Hard to believe that a 68 98 was only worth that much on a trade after only 3 or 4 years in service, isn't it?
The paint code BTW is exactly the same as mine - Sterling silver code 14 upper/lower
I see the order was March 31 of 72!! Wow, if it got into the system the next week it would have been built at exactly the same time as my car!! (April 7, 1972 - just that mine was Lansing)
March 19th, 2014, 12:04 PM
#17
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I didn't even realize he had traded in a 98... good eye. Yes, the W29 was the code I mentioned in my first post as being kind of the holy grail for those who find a '72 and want to prove it's real. He definitely picked out the nice options... sport mirrors, sport steering wheel, etc. Are you reading that the car had a column shift with bucket seats? If so, I'm surprised he didn't opt for a floor shift... although I would prefer a manual transmission. (and a 455 for that matter!) Well, if I should happen to find it in bad shape (torn up, missing parts, not #s matching), my dad would approve of an engine/tranny swap... after all, his first car was a '55 Chevy in which he promptly dropped a V8 and 4-speed (hanging a clutch pedal in the process). No paperwork for that one! Well, thanks again!
March 19th, 2014, 03:13 PM
#19
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What I like is putting down a $50 deposit on a car. I wonder if dealers will accept that nowadays.
Very cool documents. When I acquired my '73 Custom Cruiser a few years ago from the original owner's family, I also got every document ever associated with the car as he had kept everything. I have the order sheet, window sticker, and two copies of the broadcast card, which he must have found over his roughly 35 years of ownership
Very cool documents. When I acquired my '73 Custom Cruiser a few years ago from the original owner's family, I also got every document ever associated with the car as he had kept everything. I have the order sheet, window sticker, and two copies of the broadcast card, which he must have found over his roughly 35 years of ownership
March 21st, 2014, 10:35 AM
#21
Just an Olds Guy
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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
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What are the chances you might just buy a different 1972 442 and repaint it to match your Dad's? Even a 72 Cutlass with some mods could likely be matched to what your Dad had, and it might help you keep your Dad's memories alive.
I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier. I know it's been 10 years for you, but my condolences on your loss. Your Dad must have been a very special guy and was lucky to have formed that kind of bond with you.
I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier. I know it's been 10 years for you, but my condolences on your loss. Your Dad must have been a very special guy and was lucky to have formed that kind of bond with you.
Last edited by Allan R; March 21st, 2014 at 10:38 AM.
March 21st, 2014, 11:04 AM
#22
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What are the chances you might just buy a different 1972 442 and repaint it to match your Dad's? Even a 72 Cutlass with some mods could likely be matched to what your Dad had, and it might help you keep your Dad's memories alive.
I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier. I know it's been 10 years for you, but my condolences on your loss. Your Dad must have been a very special guy and was lucky to have formed that kind of bond with you.
I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier. I know it's been 10 years for you, but my condolences on your loss. Your Dad must have been a very special guy and was lucky to have formed that kind of bond with you.
March 21st, 2014, 11:24 AM
#23
Just an Olds Guy
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Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
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I understand exactly how you feel. My 72 was Dad's car and it has a ton of sentimental value - way beyond it's appraised value. I swear sometimes I can feel my Dad encouraging me as I undertake various stages of restoration on it. My brother inherited it after Dad passed but didn't look after it. I bought it off him in 82 and it's been through a lot of work to get it to where it is now. The car means too much to me, and sadly my son is not all that interested in it. LOL, he'd have a hard time fitting in it at 6'3". He tried once with the seat all the way back but his head still hits the headliner.
If you don't find your Dad's car though....think of this.... If you find a car you think symbolizes your relationship and memories you shared with him and build it to match those memories? Your son will have the distinct privilege of owning the dream you currently are looking for, and it will also recognize the legacy your Dad had for the passion and dreams about 'our current classics'. Just a thought.
If you don't find your Dad's car though....think of this.... If you find a car you think symbolizes your relationship and memories you shared with him and build it to match those memories? Your son will have the distinct privilege of owning the dream you currently are looking for, and it will also recognize the legacy your Dad had for the passion and dreams about 'our current classics'. Just a thought.
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