72Cutlass_442

Hey guys, I'm trying to post on the newbie post section and I'm failing. So I'll introduce myself here. I have a 1972 cutlass S. It runs really well and is extremely reliable. I am having a bit of a problem though. The blinkers are not working properly. They flash quickly for a moment then stop. Sometimes they don't flash at all. I've taken the blinker assembly apart and have found no problems. I don't think its a grounding problem as the emergency flashers still work properly. I've also checked the flasher located at the fuse box and it is fine. One strange thing is that it works when its hot and won't at all when its cold. Any suggestions or help would be fantastic!!!

Allan R

Hey there, Welcome to C.O.

Well, to get you started in the posting all you have to do is go to the forum you want to use. In this case it would likely be "General Discussion". Clik 'New Thread' at the top left and then give it a title. Enter info just the way you did here.

re: your flasher. It's not likely the light assemblies at all. If your flasher is getting hot it's time for a new one. The one on the fuse block is for the emergency flashers. The one that is used for turn signals is up under the dash close to the steering column. Look at page 12-104 on this link and you'll find it. http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...12__Part-1.pdf

Hope that solves both of your problems.

2blu442

Welcome to the site! I moved this for you so if Allan's tips don't get you through your problem you can post here and tell us what you tried and what it did or didn't do. John

Allan R

Hey thanks John!

See 72Cutlass_442? Our moderators are really helpful and they do watch over the site.

BTW, John is also one of the guys on this site who has parts for a lot of these cars. Still can't get him to part with an OAI hood, but maybe one of these days when Rob and I get down there to visit and do a pig roast.....

2blu442

You'd better have some pretty special bar-b-que sauce if I'm going to part with that hood

72Cutlass_442

Thanks Allen R for the information! I checked and I believe the flasher shown in 12-112 is the flasher I changed. I may be wrong but it was located at the upper left hand corner of the fuse box. It was a large aluminum cylinder that had HD FLASHER 552 12VOLT Fuse INPUT LEAD on it. I can't seem to find anything else and it looks like the illustration. If this is not the correct flasher please let me know! Also, what I meant is that in cold weather like 40 and below, the blinkers didn't work and from 80 and up they were working all the time and any temperature in between they might work. It was really strange. Thanks again for the help and let me know if I changes the right part.

Allan R

The flasher on the top left of the fuse box is the emergency (hazard) flasher. The flasher you should have changed is the one on page 12-104. It's up in behind the headlight switch area. May be secured with a spring or may be hanging loose. Doesn't need to be HD either.

Flashers are just a small relay. They can, and do go bad. Your description of the heat related problems is consistent with relay failure.

72Cutlass_442

I'm sorry for being so dumb but i'm not sure where the headlight switch area is. I haven't had to deal with the electrical of my car and I'm new to mechanics.

Allan R

No worries. The headlight switch is on the lower left side of the dash (behind the **** you pull out to turn on the headlights and the wiper switch) If your car has AC it might be tucked up in that air vent line. You'll need to use a flash light. You pretty much need to lie on your back. There's just no easy way to do this.

72Cutlass_442

That sounds about right. Awkward positions underneath the dash with a flashlight is a pretty standard position. I've found a little red box that says it is a flasher so I guess that's it. Thanks again for the help. I'm going to pick another one up and see what happens.

Allan R

Any news? Yeah, I know the feeling about being upside down and using a flashlight. You should try it with bi-focals!

72Cutlass_442

It worked! The parts stores don't sell the original style though but I did find a replacement that matched the amperage and voltage. I do have another question though. The steering wheel is a bit lose. I can turn it about 20 degrees without it effecting the direction I'm going which is not a good thing I don't believe. Any suggestions on what might cause that would be fantastic!

Allan R

Could be a number of things.
1. When was the last time your car had any suspension work done? You could have very badly worn ball joints, idler arm, inner tie rods or centre link joints. If you need to get this done, you should also look at replacing the front stabilizer bar bushings and link kits. That will make a big difference in handling too.

2. Hopefully the steering gearbox is ok, but it might need to have be reset for proper pre-load.

I'd focus on the first number of issues - that's where most of the poor steering /drivability issue complaints come from.

72Cutlass_442

I had the front bushings and tie rods changed about two months ago and thats when I started noticing the problem. They also corrected some major chamfering issues. Once I got my car back I noticed I had some play in the steering. I thought it was just my imagination and kept driving. I stopped driving it for a while because I kept getting pulled over for my blinkers and missing reflector(which is fixed now). I started driving it again and realized this problem is pretty bad.

Allan R

Jack up the front of the car and do this test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56qWD...yer_detailpage

72Cutlass_442

I did that test which lead me to take it in because there was a severe wobble as well as the chamfering. They also repacked the barrings. I assumed everything was fixed but I'm not sure now. Ill give it a try and let you know if it does. Thanks for the help!

Allan R

One thing that will cause sloppy steering is if the wheel bearings aren't properly tightened. I doubt a good shop would screw that up, but who knows? I'm leaning more toward your ball joints or idler arm. When your tie rods were done, did they also change the center link?

72Cutlass_442

I did the test and the wheels do wobble a bit but its coming from the bearings I believe because everything else is tight. It takes some pretty good force to shake the wheel though. Should I repack the bearings? Thats what the shop I took it to was supposed to do and they definitely charged me for it.

Allan R

If they charged for it, take it back. I'm wondering if they forgot to put the retainer washer back on the front under the castle nut? When the wheel turns it should move freely with just the slightest amount of disc brake drag.

If this problem started just after they did the work, I'd definitely put the ball back in their court. A GOOD shop will honor their work no matter what. A MEH shop will tell you to bugger off.

When you do front wheel bearings, they should also have checked and prolly replaced the inner grease seals too. Did they repack old stuff, or did they replace all 4 wheel bearings and both grease seals?

Just FYI, here is a pic of the inner grease seal I took off my car last year. You wouldn't see the damage unless you actually took the time to clean it.

72Cutlass_442

I checked the bearings and they are not the part that is wobbling. It is actually the part that is connected to the outer tie rods. It appears that they repaired the steering knuckle but that is where it is wobbling. They also replaced the outer tie rod itself. Is it supposed to be loose?

oldstata

Does it wobble up/ down or side to side or all direction ?


Up down can be ball joint / bearing play
Side to side could be tie rod pitman idler arm or center link or it could be worn knuckle / where the tie rod goes through

72Cutlass_442

its only a side to side wobble. I can see the outer tie rod steering knuckle move as I tug on it. This is specifically what was replaced. Should it move at all?

oldstata

Well in thery no you should have no play but this style of front end there seems to always be some play but usually the play is at the idler/ pitman arms or center link so if it's loose at the tie rod where it meets the knuckle than its a bad outter tie rod or the knuckle is worn is my opinion

oldstata

If you have a friend move it side to side kind of slow as you look at the parts some times it helps to grab the one in question as they move it you might be able to see or feel the movement easyer to pin point what's really moving and

72Cutlass_442

The movement is definitely at the tie rod so I guess I'll take it back to the shop and see if they can re fix it so there is no movement. Thanks for the help!

Octania

Absolutely not. There should be zero detectable play in any of the steering joints during a manual examination. Possible in the lower ball joint once the car weight is removed from the LBJ.

Be aware that quality varies. I rebuilt the entire front end of the family van about 2 yrs ago. Every movable part. Struts, mounts, tie rod ends, wheel bearings. The cheap chynese tie rods ends were worn out in about 6 mos. Factory originals lasted about 10 YEARS. I replaced them with MOOG units. Costly but effective.

Allan R

Hell no! The knuckle is held to the spindle with 2 bolts that are torqued to 90 ft/lbs. There should be NO movement of the knuckle at all. Are you instead describing the lower ball joint connection? Have you checked your idler arm to see if it has slop in it?

Which part are you saying moves?

72Cutlass_442

The part that is moving is the area in with the blue grommet at the end of the outer tie rod. When I jack the car up, I can move the wheel and that part rocks back and forth.

Allan R

Ok, that's normal when there's no weight on it. The part you're describing is the outer tie rod pivot. It's supposed to have some flexibility to move with the steering and suspension. As you can see from the upper picture, there's a zerk for grease = kind of like a mini ball joint.

72Cutlass_442

Alright thats good news! But that the only part that moves when I shook the tire. Where is the idler arm located in the image above?

Allan R

The idler is the part that's bolted to the inner frame. It connects to the centre link. Its at the top left of the pic behind the stabilizer bar.

MDchanic

Sorry - haven't looked at this thread in a few days.

Here's your idler arm:



Allan, I think you're mistaken - I think he means that when the steering linkage is held still he can wiggle the tire and see movement at the outer tie rod end, not that the spherical joint of the outer tie rod is moving through its arc as the car is steered.

As others have said, there should be NO relative movement between ANY of the parts of the steering system.

I also think, with all due respect , that you guys are overthinking this:
The crappy shop that did the work forgot to tighten down the tie rod nuts properly, and then left the cotter pins out.
He's driving a death trap.

If I were you, I'd read a book, buy some tools, and fix this mess myself, rather than let those butchers anywhere near your car again.
Even a completely clueless brand newbian with zero mechanical skills would do a better job than it appears as though the shop did.

... Just my 2¢ of course...

Welcome to Classic Oldsmobile!

- Eric

Allan R

Hey Eric,
Now I have to go scrub all that pink crap off my idler arm. What ever you do, don't hold back......

I didn't read it that way. But it's definitely a possibility they didn't do the proper torque and lock with cotter. It will be easy enough to find out just by looking if they supposedly put new parts in. The missing cotter pin should stand out like a sore thumb. BTW Eric, I don't think this guy is a Jonathan.

I have suggested taking it back. After all when you pay for something you do expect to get proper value.

MDchanic

... And after all that work I did painting it...

I know.
When I read it, I just pictured both of the tie rod end tapers loose in the spindle arms. I could be wrong, but if the tie rod ends were actually new, that's the only way I can see it making sense.

I agree. As I always seem to say:
"Let's see some pictures."

I agree.

But sometimes even though you are right, it is wise to take a different route.
Sort of like the epitaph: "He had the right of way."

- Eric

oldstata

Yeah pics help a ton

The way I read into it earlier was they didn't tighten the tie rod and it Wore out the knuckle it's hard to guess with out seeing or feeling it your self

72Cutlass_442

The arrows represent where there is a wobble. When I jack up the tires, I can rotate the tire a about 7 degrees and the only part that I can see move is the knuckle. Sorry if I'm not being clear in my explanation.

72Cutlass_442

oldstata

The two arrows by the outter tie rod (middle )
Ones I would say the outter tie rod is bad the upper red one I would say your upper ball joint is bad and not sure what the lower blue one is pointing at

72Cutlass_442

The smaller red and blue arrows represent the direction the knuckle is moving according the the direction I apply pressure(the large blue and red arrows). The large arrows are more a parallel to the ground rotation.

oldstata

Well if it's moving right there I would say outter tie rod but you really need to look really well because you can feel other parts move as well just my opinion your pitman arm boot looks worn it might be your center link just cant really see at that angle if they have dirt/ dry it wears faster causing play when you are testing this are both front tires off the ground ?