SeanMiller063

Hey guys and girls I'm new here I just the other day bought a 1969 Olds Delta 88 with a 455 Big block and a 400 turbo trans, Runs GREAT body looks good from a far but I have a feeling is going to need work in the long run, few minor issues but I love it so far.

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I have tons of questions but I guess I'll make another thread or just use the search function first! Thanks for looking!!!

also a little about me. Active duty Security Forces USAF, Located In Wichita KS. Past cars... 98 Grand prix gtp 4 door light mods, 87 fiero GT L67 swap minor headwork headers stage 4 supercharger ported LIM 3.2 pully Custom computer tune.... 315+estimated whp, 02 jetta 1.8 T 3 inch turbo back no emissions, 98 jeep grand 4.0, Current is an 09 lancer GTS bells and whistles all stock (wifes ride)

Allan R

Hi Sean!
Welcome to C.O. Great looking car. Looking forward to the thread with all the questions. I personally really like the 69/70 Deltas a LOT. Wish Dad had bought one of them.
Thank you for your service.

SeanMiller063

thanks man! I had a chance a few years back to get a 72 or 73 olds 98 455 but the time wasn't right and the wife said no! haha. this should be fun

OLD SKL 69

Welcome to CO Sean! Nice looking car.

mpolds

You will find as you progress through this car that your parts stores are very little help for below 1971 -- and even what they can get - is not nearly as "Quality" or the right price anyway.....

I have mountains of parts fro this car -- all the brakes including BRAKE DRUMS and ROTORS (if Disc), all the FRONT END (including Center Link), Coil Springs and Shocks, Fuel Pump and Water Pump, Ignition & Electrical, and whole lot more.....

Good luck with your new toy -- hope you don't need me too much!!!! -- but I am here for you when you do!!!!

Best always to simply call me -- Craig -- 516 - 485 - 1935....New York.

SeanMiller063

Having trouble titling the car I guess I bought. $3500 driveway ornament

MDchanic

Why? Does it belong to someone else?

- Eric

SeanMiller063

I guess It belongs to the bank it has a lean from 3 owners ago the guy I bought it off of told me it was clean and clear ready to title even signed paperwork stating the fact but he lied his *** off now won't answer my calls, I'm going to talk to the legal office on base and see if they can help me out at all, I almost had the plates in hand and they said no they couldn't give them to me, I'm thinking about just putting a Vin from another 69 on there and calling it good hahaa I hate getting screwed

MDchanic

If you've got signed papers from the seller attesting that the car is free and clear, you probably at least have a Small Claims cause of action to get him to refund your money (plus damages, if it can be shown that he lied), so I would say, yes, go for that.

You have just learned a valuable lesson, which I will repeat here, not for your benefit ('cause you already know too well), but for the benefit of others who might be reading:

Don't buy a car without a title in a title-issuing state.
It will come back and bite your a$$.

If a title is really lost, it just costs the real owner about four bucks and an hour at the DMV office (in some states you can do it on line), so there is no excuse for a car that is supposed to have a title to not have one.

- Eric

Allan R

Bad idea. Follow through on Eric's suggestion first. Changing a cars VIN is a federal offence and not worth the time you'd have to serve if you got caught.

No one likes getting screwed on a car purchase, but don't compound the issue.

jaunty75

Three owners ago? How can that be? If the car has a lien from a guy three owners back, then how did the two-owners back guy ever buy it? And how did he sell it to the guy you bought it from? If you can't get a title because of the lien, no one should be able to. Has it been actually been titled each time, or have these "owners" just been exchanging money and who had the car in their driveway without anyone since the original, lien-getting owner actually owning it?

Here's another dumb question. How much is the lien? Who holds it? A bank? If so, go talk to them. If they've got a now three-year-old, non-performing loan, they might take something less than what's owed just to get it off their books.

I mean, how much lien can there be on a '69 Delta 88? Nothing against the car and all, but it's not worth a ton of money in the first place. If the lien is not more than a couple hundred dollars, consider just paying it off and actually owning the car. Consider it part of the cost of the car, and consider how much you won't have to go through in time and expense to either recover the money you just paid the seller or to the get seller three owners back to pay off his lien. (Can this person even be found? And what could you do if you did find him that wouldn't cost you more than paying off the possibly-reduced lien?)

In other words, if it isn't too high, think about getting past this and moving on. I know it will rankle. But sometimes a little rankling is ultimately less stressful and costly than doing what appears to be the right thing. Sometimes life is just too short for anything else.

Just a thought.

SeanMiller063

Well they were not real owners just car and cash it looks like no one registered it and no one told me I couldn't register it, the lean is to large to pay for the vehicle it's $11,500 & counting everyday they would not let me pay on it unless it was going to be in the full amount. So I might try and so a quiet title?

MDchanic

What bank would ever lend someone $11,500 on an old Delta? It's probably not even worth that fully restored!

- Eric

SeanMiller063

They said its over a years delenquint, so my guess is 85% is interest and the use bought it at a dealership

MDchanic

THIS would be a good time for a smart bank to cut its losses and move on. They're obviously not going to get their money from the borrower.

However, remember that banks count money they've leant out as ASSETS, but have to shift that to losses if they write off part of the loan, so you know what they'll do...

Don't get me started on the banking system.

- Eric

jaunty75

This is totally nuts from top to bottom, and I'm guessing we're not getting the full story.

NO ONE with half a brain would loan $11,000, or half of $11,000, or even one-third of $11,000 on a car that's worth maybe $3,000 or $4,000 on a good day. On a car this old and in this condition, I can see a short-term loan (one year, two years) for maybe, at most, half its appraised value.

You say that "they said it's over a year's delinquent." Who is "they"? The bank? The guy you bought it from? The guy who took out the loan three owner's ago?

Eric is correct. No bank is going to expend much effort to collect $11,000 on a car that's worth one-third of that. Whoever owes them the money, if THEY had half a brain, would be better off just handing them the car instead.

I know that hindsight is 20/20, but I would NEVER buy a car from someone unless they handed me a CLEAN TITLE at the time I handed them the money. No promises. No "I'll get the title to you tomorrow" or whatever.

SeanMiller063

The bank was saying they were over a years delenquint, if anyone had told me money was owed on the vehicle I would have not bought it, and yes buying it without a title = **** head move back home I would have never been dumb enough to do such a thing but in Kansas I could have registered it without one just a quick check with the Highway patrol wich went fine, what screwed me was the DMV at the last minute found a lean on title in the system.

Allan R

Just looked at the NADA price guide for 1969 2 door coupe in avg retail condition and was shocked to see it for 10K with AC and 455/400. So given that the loan was 3 years ago, it might have been valued higher back then. I know it just sucks to be stuck with a car you can't register now. Here's a thought that you might want to take with you to the bank.

Armed with your paper stating the car is clear of anything owing, go directly to the bank and tell them you bought this in good faith. Also let them know you will not be responsible for the chattel against the car - based on that. Ask them to remove the lien 'in good faith' so you can enjoy building and using the car. Offer to pay the cost of the admin cost to remove the lien, but that's all. Do NOT lose your cool dealing with the bank, but DO let them see the adverse conditions under which the sale occurred. Who knows, the loan officer might actually be a car guy or have a heart.

IF they say it's not possible, discuss your options to part it out and keep the proceeds which would independently be worth more than the car is. That means they will lose the principle on which the chattel is based IF it's parted. A SMART bank will work with you to resolve this issue.

Not suggesting you actually part it since you obviously bought the car to enjoy. What I'm suggesting are just good business diplomacy to get what you should have got without spending anything on top of the purchase price.

Hmmm, just thought of something. Be sure to park the car somewhere that a repo company can't get it though because the bank might also decide to repo the car and sell it at auction to get something out of it. The chattel isn't transferable to you through the sale, but the car still can be legally the property of the bank no matter how many times it has 'unofficially' changed hands. So the car is the thing of value the bank wants to recoup some $$ from = one way or another.

One last resort - if the bank says they want the car? Offer to pay them 5¢ on the dollar for 1/2 depreciated fair market value of the car based on the current NADA guide price of 10,400.00. For about 250.00 extra it might be worth it since they wouldn't have to deal with repo/ sherrif/towing/storage/auction costs etc. Although like I said this would be last resort that would appear to be an afterthought as you pause in the doorway on the way out.....

tru-blue 442

Allan, NO ONE could have said it BETTER!
If all eles fails, let's see if we can title it in Texas,
before you have to bone it out. As it stands now,
title it or part it. If I can help, I will. With a clear TX title,
take it to any state you want.


Did I mention, screw a bunch of political $hit?

SeanMiller063

Thanks everyone for your replies, so far no luck with the bank wont sell it for less than is owed, I talked to a lawyer on base and will be going into there office on Friday to see if theres anything they can do for me, Until then I guess I'll keep crossing my fingers in hopes to get either the release of lean or get my money I'd rather pay another $3-500 and get release of lean because I fell in love with the old boat but we'll see.

Allan R

Best of luck, hope it all works out. Keep the updates coming.

jaunty75

Are you willing to tell us exactly what is owed?

Allan R

Most banks will heavily discount the value of a car when it's being used for collateral simply because of the depreciation and risk when it's used to secure a loan. I'd still warrant it'll be several K, but not likely the 10.4 in the price guides. Don't forget the accrued interest over 3 years now and it could be a substantial amount way more than we'd expect.

I understand the logic of your question, but I'm not sure if we should be asking the question of what's owed though. It might be personal issue for the OP and this is all pretty stressful dealing with a car he may never be able to title or drive.

jcdynamic88

it seems to me the only "legal" owner of this car is the bank and could repo it if they wanted to at this point .the bank must be holding the title

jaunty75

The NADA guide is crazily over the top in its values, anyway, in my opinion. The Old Cars Price Guide, which I think is a little more down to earth, puts the value of a '69 Delta 88 2-door hardtop in #4 condition (runs and drives but needs complete restoration) at about $3,300. In #3 condition ("car show" condition but not showroom condition), the value is about $7,000. So this car is somewhere between those two values. It is certainly not an $11,000 car unless it gets to showroom condition or better.

jaunty75

Of course the bank is holding the title. The bank, finance company, or whatever always holds the title when they make a car loan. Otherwise, they wouldn't make the loan as they'd have no recourse to take the car back and resell it to recover their money if the loan were to go into default, as it has in this case.

jcdynamic88

so the bank owns this car

jaunty75

Of course. You're stating the obvious. The bank owns every car it makes a loan on.

Just like the bank who gave you the mortgage for your house owns your house until you pay it off. Of course, you're building equity in both the car and the house as you make payments on the corresponding loans, and you would get something back when you sell either, but the bank keeps the title of the car until the loan is paid, and there is a lien against the house until the last payment is made and the bank releases it.

Allan R

That makes a lot of sense. Now here's a question, because I'm not really familiar with the intricacies of US car sales. If this appears to be a dumb question, I apologize because I'm not 100% sure how 'title' works down there.

If the car is secured by the bank as a chattel for a loan and retains ownership to the car until the outstanding loan is paid off, how can the previous owner sell the car without doing so illegally? Seems to me that the only one who could legally sell the car is the bank due to outstanding lien amount.

MDchanic

Well, yes, Allan, if you want to dispose of property for which you've borrowed money from a bank, you need to get the bank's permission to do so, either to use the proceeds of the sale to pay off the loan, or to transfer the loan (i.e.: create a new loan).

Without the bank's permission, you're selling off stolen property, which is why the bank holds onto the title.

Unless the OP can successfully sue the seller to get his money back (and, lets face it, the bank's already tried that), he's screwed.

- Eric

NorTown Olds

WELCOME to CO Sean M. SORRY it's under such adverse conditions! KEEP trying to work w/ that bank -- elevate it and speak to a Higher Level Manager, go in Uniform; take that on base JAG w/ you if you can...negotitate big time; otherwise Small Claims court sounds good and maybe JAG can help draft you a letter 'threatening that' (to at least make you "Whole again" with this car; it is a good looking Red Beast all right!)

Hey, IF all else fails -- see how much "Jaunty" wants to run this creep down for ya and WATERBOARD him!! LOL!

jaunty75

In the same way you can sell your house before the mortgage is paid off. The bank only cares about getting its money back. If you trade in your car, which you CAN do as the holder of the loan on it--you don't need the bank's permission to go looking at new cars--whatever you get for your trade-in is reduced by the amount of the loan still owed.

That's where the phrase "upside down" comes from in talking about car values versus loan amounts. In situations where people have purchased a car with very little down payment, the car's loss in value over the earlier years of its life can be faster than the rate at which the loan is being paid off, so, in the early years of the loan, they actually owe more on the loan than they could get for the car in trading it in. So they're "trapped" in that car until they've paid off enough of the loan that they're no longer upside down.

This has become more of an issue in recent years and decades as car prices have increased and loan lengths have increased to now six or seven years. With such a long loan, very little equity is gained by the buyer in the first two or three years. This has made more expensive cars more affordable by keeping the monthly payment down, but it also means that owners have to keep their cars longer before they've built enough equity in it for it to have any value as a trade-in. That helps and hurts the new car market at the same time.

This is what happened in the last few years in the housing market with values crashing and people who had taken a large loan relative to the house's value finding themselves unable to sell their houses because they owe more on their mortgage than they could get by selling their house.

But be assured that the bank holding the loan is definitely involved if the owner wants to trade the car in before the loan is paid off. When I've gone to look at new cars, one of the first things the salesman asks, once he knows I plan to trade a car in, is whether or not there is still a loan on it as this will determine how much the trade-in is actually worth to me as a buyer. It will also mean, of course, that the bank holding the loan will be in the picture as part of the financial transaction. After all, they've got the title.

Ditto for selling your house. I think the average length of time a house is lived in in this country after it's purchased is six years. People are always selling houses on which they still owe money. Having that old loan paid off at the time the sale is closed is a requirement of the bank holding the loan before they'll remove the lien.

SeanMiller063

well USAA Will NOT release the Lien, A quiet title Will also not work due to the Lien and the bank, the only options I really have left for the car Part it, Trade it, Sell it as is no title, small claims court, and let the local PD know, I did talk to a few lawyers they said it was fraud due the the signed documentation stating there were no liens on the vehicle from the seller and him not being the actual owner of the car. I'll be going to the local court house on monday as well as letting the PD know. maybe I can get my money back and keep the car haha The lawyer I spoke with today said to sue for the price of the vehicle as well as damages.

MDchanic

And damages include every second of your time and every penny of your money spent trying to figure this out, and in most states, since you are alleging fraud, the damages are tripled.

Also, remember, since he didn't own the car in the first place, this case is exactly the same as if he tried to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge - just a straight-up con.

- Eric

SeanMiller063

I talked to a guy who owns a repo company who suggested I go about getting a mechanics title for the car I think that's what I'm going to try and do as well as to to small claims if I can,