I know there are lots of forums detailing how each person was able to get their Edlebrock Performer intake manifold to work with a Q-Jet carb but I was unable to find one that truly looked original when it was finished. To those of you that may have done that and I missed it---sorry! I thought I would post my recent upgrades to my restored 442 and share my successes with pictures in order to help the next guy who may be interested in similar mods.

If you have been following my build and resto thread (located in my email signature below), you will note that I was running a Holley SNIPER Q-Jet EFI fuel setup along with a factory W-30 aluminum manifold. While that setup ran well on the dyno with a Q-Jet carb...I was not happy with the performance of the SNIPER Q-Jet in my car for several reasons. Some of them include:

1. I did not like the transition hesitation that was present with the deadheaded Holley OE Style in-tank pump with regulator. That pump/regulator setup just did not cut it for me and was constantly causing me a tip-in or transition hesitation when I went from mid throttle to WOT. I hated it and no matter how much I tuned the software....it would not go away. This pump setup was sold as a great installation to a OEM fuel tank rather than upgrading to a EFI tank with the baffles and EFI provisioning. Another MISTAKE! Get the actual EFI tank if you want success with an EFI installation. Period!
2. I did not like the fact that I had no return fuel line as noted above. From my experience...if you want maximum performance....you gotta run a real return line to the TBI unit.
3. The OE fuel pump/regulator/sender did not fit properly into the OEM tank and therefore also caused fuel gage reading errors and inconsistencies. The fuel sending unit did not extend down far enough into the tank and therefore read incorrectly. I wanted that fuel gage to read accurately and it would not. I even pulled out the tank and attempted to bend the sending unit arm but that was not the answer.
4. I was not happy with the fuel/air charge inconsistencies cylinder to cylinder with the SNIPER Q-Jet system on my factory W-30 intake. No matter how many changes I made to the fuel/air mapping, timing, and etc....there was unharvested HP and torque that I was not able to enjoy because of this inconsistent fuel burn across the cylinders. The spark plugs told me a sad story each time I pulled them for reference after making more tuning changes in the software. With only one O2 sensor...the computer was doing it's best to regulate the A/F mixture.

So---here is what I did----I called Wilson Manifolds and talked to a super nice engineer and explained my course of action that I planned on taking to include the following:
1. Replace the W-30 intake with an Edelbrock Performer intake. Machine that carb mounting plate down 1/2" to account for the manifold height differences as compared to the stock. Next machine the center divider 5/8" to allow fuel/air charge sharing between the banks of the dual plane manifold.
2. Replace the OEM fuel tank with a Tanks, Inc EFI tank. My OEM tank was also experiencing fuel starvation around corners while driving since it lacked a fuel bucket or baffles for the pump unit.
3. Install a second 3/8" SS return fuel line that goes from the tank to the EFI unit.
4. Purchase a drop base air cleaner to fabricate to the OEM 442 OAI air cleaner assembly. Cut out the center of the OEM 442 air cleaner base and mount the high flow drop base center into that OEM OAI air cleaner. This also allowed me to increase the size of the too small (IMHO) air cleaner that was factory on these engines and now install a 14x3 air cleaner filter.
5. Install a high flow air cleaner top which also adds additional RAM air flow into the throttle body.
6. Lastly....remove the Holley SNIPER Q-Jet setup and replace it with the 4150 Holley Style EFI unit with four similar sized throttle bores opening 1x1 primary/secondary. I did not use the progressive linkage setup although that is an option if you want a more progressive feel from idle.

Then I built a new tune for the 4150 SNIPER and walla---night and day difference! No more hesitations of any kind. Butt in the seat performance is crazy different but to the naked eye...when you open the hood---everything looks very stock and unchanged from a W-30 install. With the larger air cleaner and the filter top, there is more RAM air available to enter into the engine than before which counters any negative that may exist for machining down the carb mounting plate that 1/2" to make everything fit and work properly. I am super stoked at the performance and the factory look for my car and application.

Here is the high flow drop base that i used: https://www.daymotorsports.com/shop-...base/AF-77120B

If you do the math with the drop base and the machining as described...you can make everything I noted work and look original. FYI....my OAI air cleaner assembly is the same height as the factory single snorkel model that belongs on that year 442.

I'm hoping others may find this post helpful as well. Here are some pics to show the install and configuration....If you have questions on my engine or etc....check out my restoration build thread and see if I answer them there with the text and pictures.


4150 SNIPER installed on machined manifold.

OAI air cleaner assembly showing high flow drop base installed.

Larger 14x3 air filter element which now fits with the drop base and carb mounting machining.

Air cleaner assembly showing the filter top lid.

Everything installed and ready for action.

 

Nice installation, I’m waiting on Holley to repair my Sniper Quadrajet, and after reading your post, I’m wondering if I’ll be happy with my build.
Good Job!

 

Thanks. Well I would say that depends on your engine build, driving style, and performance goals. I am a member of the Holley forums and there are many trusted tuners on there that won't help diagnose issues with these models any longer. No one can describe any specific issues or concerns...they just note them as being oddball and like a redheaded step child. Unfortunately I have witnessed some of those same unexplained concerns with my build but I totally wish you the best with yours.

 

I’ve received great support for my Quadrajet on the Holley forum. The Holley OE pump fit perfectly in the stock tank, my particular pump isn’t a deadhead pump. I’m running the old Edelbrock O4B, modified, and MSD distributor, more to come..😊

 

Thanks for the info very helpful!

 

Good morning DaveAwesome writeup ! Glad to see your trials and tribulations have finally paid off. As you know I am about to head down this road with a very similar build as yours.
You mentioned the dedicated 3/8 fuel return line, did you use a 3/8 feed ? Also, do you have any pics of the modifications you made to your intake ?
Thanks for sharing.

 

The whole process seems very expensive and super frustrating.looks like a nice clean setup in the end though.

 

Hi Rick! Thanks for the note and comments. It's been a little journey but I don't give up till the car is right. I am nearing that point now!

Yes, I have two SS fuel lines. One primary and one return. They are SS hardline from the front to the back of the car and transition to flex with AN fittings at the tank and at the throttle body. One other advantage that I didn't mention or problem that I solved....there are no more excessive fuel pulses now with the true return system vice the in-tank regulated system I had before. With the old system, it was difficult to check the fuel pressure at idle as the gage needle was bouncing around all the time from those excessive fuel pulses.

Here are some pics of the machining process for the intake and the end result.


Ready to mill....



Milling complete. 1/2" was milled off the carb mounting surface and then the center divider was milled down 5/8" per direction from Wilson Manifolds.

 

Hi Jeff. Well I would say that restoring a car correctly and completely is not cheap. Lol

In the case of these changes or upgrades....the money that was returned to me for selling the Olds W-30 aluminum intake and the SNIPER Q-Jet more than paid for the purchase of the 4150 SNIPER, the new intake, and the new fuel tank and pump assembly. For me it was not about the money as much as making sure it was right, reliable, and performs as it is should. I guess those trades could be different for each person.

 

I’m glad it worked out and you stuck with it until it was right you should lots of happy motoring ahead of you 👍

 

Thanks! That's the plan. Now I gotta figure out the next project as I don't sit still too long..... Lol

 

Milling complete. 1/2" was milled off the carb mounting surface and then the center divider was milled down 5/8" per direction from Wilson Manifolds.[/QUOTE]

I know aftermarket intakes have more advantages than our W30 intake, but I wonder if milling down the divider, opening plenum and port matching would make a difference.
Nice work Dave !

 

Rick----great questions! I guess one would need to do side-by-side comparisons of sorts to determine if both manifolds could produce similar performance results. I would think there would be at least some small gains made by making those machining changes to the W-30 manifold but I'm guessing there might still be significant air flow and velocity advantages that exist with the newer manifolds. Perhaps the machined original W-30 manifold would be "good enough" though depending on your requirements or desirements. In my case, I had another performance benchmark that I was trying to match and that was the performance of my BBC Chevelle with similar HP and torque numbers. My recent upgrades have pulled the performance of those two different, yet comparable engines more in line with one another and I feel like I am getting all or nearly all of the available power in the 442 now.

Thanks for the comments.

Keep me posted on your engine project and your journey.

 

Looks great! Mine is similar except with Fi Tech and a Torker intake. Had to do a huge drop base but I'm able to run the fully functional flapper on the breather:
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Nice and thanks! Yeah when I did my research and talked to Wilson Manifolds...many forget what has to be considered in order to ensure the engine has the air it needs to breathe and perform. The factory air cleaner which is a single snorkel and a very small air filter element was made to allow these 455 engines to produce less than 400 HP stock. My engine for example is nearing 575 HP which is a significant difference from stock. My gut told me that my stock air filter element which I think was 2.25" tall was too small for my new engine numbers even before I added a drop base. Once you add the drop base...if you don't compensate somewhere else...there is even less flow potential into the throttle plates with the now-restricted drop base assembly. This can be seen by looking at the measured space between the top of the air filter element and the drop base curvature. I knew this would be the case once I measured how much space was left under the air cleaner top for air to flow with the drop base. If a person does not consider this....the performance enhancements of the higher flow intake will not be available if the air cannot flow through the air cleaner element.

I decided to go a different route and noted that in my pics. I was able to then increase the surface area of my air cleaner to a 3" up from the stock 2.25" and then also added the filter top. I also removed the flapper door as that is even more restrictive to air flow and channeling of that air plus I don't drive the car in the winter and want the increased air flow all the time. With those changes, I have more than compensated for the use of the drop base and now allow allot more air into the throttle body. I'm not sure that most who make these changes are looking at the bigger picture of how much air must be allowed to flow into the manifold if you want max power.

Just my two cents based on my research, testing, and discussions with other professionals.

 

Dave,

I think we may have chatted about this a while back. I know I've had several ask about the amount of air getting in and how the really huge drop base could cause issues. I've got over 5k miles on the motor and no issues that I can see or feel so far. My "butt" dyno can't feel any difference when I'm running the factory breather vs. when I take it off. I've done back to back drives and can't feel any difference but I know that's not exactly the accurate way to compare. I know back in the day someone did back to back 1/4 mile runs with and without the breather installed and the w/o run was a tenth faster. I hope to do the same one day and will definitely post my results. Sounds like we are at least in the same ball park on power. My motor dyno'd at 528/563 years ago with my previous cam, before the Ebrock were cleaned up a little, and with my old QJ carb. Again my super scientific butt dyno can feel a huge difference now vs then but not sure of the exact #s. I do plan on doing a rear wheel dyno soon so we'll see how those #s come out. I just love the look and sound of the breather. I like when I start the car and I hear the breather "click" closed. I like when I get on it on the hwy and can hear it open and the air sucking in. It's just a very unique sound. I also like when I turn the motor off and I hear the "click" of the flapper as it falls open. May sound stupid but it's all part of the entire experience driving my 442. If I'm giving up a few hp I'm OK with that. With this motor and the 6 speed w/the 4.10 gears I don't feel I'm lacking for power. But that said - more is always better

-Joe

 

dc2x4drvr-----Did you get that Q-Jet SNIPER back from Holley yet? How's it running? I'm anxious to hear if you like it and how it's performing for ya.

 

Thanks for asking, Holley shipped my Sniper back, after checking, and fixing…took 6 days, awesome. So, this week I’ll take another shot at cranking up my 461, I’ll let you know, BTW, I’m thinking I will use a pro tuner after getting the thing running decent.

 

Finally got back on my 442, the engine started right up thanks to Holley repairing my Q-Jet, runs pretty good, but needs a little tuning, IAC too high, etc…more work tomorrow…

 

First short drive yesterday, ran good, but I’ll need to tune for my stick, very nice, stable idle.
More to follow..

 

My Sniper is runnng fairly good, but, I’m not willing to spend hours/weeks learning how to tune, so I’m using a top notch EFI tuner, his first session was great, more to follow.
442Dude, are you running a PCV valve?

 

Nice---yeah I pulled out all the stops when I had my QJet SNIPER and also got some professional help with my tune. We changed a number of things but I was still not happy with the results. When I switched over to the 4150 model SNIPER---it was like adding another 200 HP to the engine and the way it ran. It's a monster now! I sold that complete unit to an older gentlemen that will likely never open the throttles more than 50% anyway. In both my cars...they are at 100% more than not. Good luck. I'm in the process of perfecting my timing and A/F maps now. It's going well.

Yes I have a PCV in the passenger side valve cover and a hi-flow breather in the left. I installed a baffle in both valve covers to keep the oil from escaping through those two devices.

 

Curious who you're using to tune it? I messed with the AFR and timing targets a bit on mine, and was able to get it running noticeably better than the "stock" learning feature could. However, my lack of knowledge and time prevented me from messing with the actual fuel tables. I spent the money for a remote tune and after a few back n forth data logs and revised tunes, it runs amazing. So much so, I wish I had a bigger cam!

 

When the center divider gets machined down, what gasket configuration got/gets used, or modified, particularly with the spread bore?

…

 

Andrewb, EFI Tuner, he’s located in Kansas City, he logs on to my laptop, and basically tunes in real time, he’ll do the second session this week.

 

When I used the factory GM W-30 aluminum intake manifold on my 462----the center was not milled down or changed and I used the standard Q-Jet spreadbore gasket.

After I switched to the Edelbrock manifold and machined down the center divider, I used the standard 4150 type Holley gasket that came with the EFI unit. It looks like this picture…..

 

Mr Nick---curious---what's your engine config and what EFI unit and fuel pump setup is on your car?

 

442Dude
Yes I have a PCV in the passenger side valve cover and a hi-flow breather in the left. I installed a baffle in both valve covers to keep the oil from escaping through those two devices.

My guy recommended a fixed orfice PCV valve, supposedly works better with the Sniper.

 

Ahh yes, I'm familiar with him from Pro-Touring.com. I believe he makes custom harnesses as well. I've heard good things, glad he's working out well for you.

 

355 Olds, Edelbrock heads/RPM intake (recently had the center divider milled down, no major difference in the tune)

Erson hydraulic roller cam 226/234, 112 lobe center, .584 lift
Full length headers etc...
Dyno 360 hp to the tires
Original style 550-511 Sniper
Tanks Inc tank with in tank pump
Earls vapor guard hose, filter mounted in frame rail

I love this thing, the throttle response with a manual trans is a real blast to drive.

 

Ahhhhh......yes. I am not surprised. That's the same SNIPER unit I now have and the tank and pump on my Chevelle and 442. They run outstanding. Congrats! I have 5 speed Tremecs with 4.10 gears in each. Love them.

 

442Dude, do you feel the issue could be with the qjet Sniper? Your own words said "Then I built a new tune for the 4150 SNIPER and walla..." I have a NEW 4150 sitting on the shelf for another build for a daily driver, and I'm thinking MODIFY the W30 intake with the 2 large ovals like a normal dual plane and use my existing Sniper? Unlike my Chevy build, this engine will be 150Hp LOWER then the max rating on the Sniper. Whereas my Chevy stuff are 150Hp+ MORE than the rating on the Sniper.

I'm trying to keep the W30 intake. BUT will do like you guys and modify a base to keep the RAM AIR top and flapper.

Thanks

 

I just think it depends on your HP goals, engine, and driving style. Many people don't know what a 600 HP car feels like and to them 300 or more is powerful. It's all relative to them. Once you know more about engines and can do the comparisons by feel, speed, and etc.....most then want all the HP they can get from their powerplant. I am the same. My engine builder and I went to great lengths to get as much HP from my new engine as possible. There was no way that I was going to be happy leaving some on the table when I wanted it and paid for it.

I went round and round for months tuning my QJet and even had some professional help and the use of a chassis dyno to get the best numbers possible. I was still not happy with it! My engine builder tried multiple times to dissuade me from using the factory W-30 intake because of the runner design and old technologies. I was set on using that intake because I thought it was cool and wanted it to look original. I had also been told by some (because everyone is a car and engine expert- LOL) that machining a new Edelbrock Performer intake to fit the OAI hood and RAM air setup would ruin or hinder it's performance. I decided to make the leap after doing my own research and I don't give up easily. I can tell you that it paid off huge dividends in the way my car now runs. It's nothing short of amazing the way it pulls and the power that's at your fingertips....nothing like the QJet setup with that OEM tank pump and etc.

At the end of the day, I'm sure you can make the W-30 intake perform better with some modifications but just know that I doubt it will ever equal what can be achieved with the Performer or Air Gap manifold. That's just something you have to consider and decide on. I have lots of connections that do tuning and I study the forums. No one can identify something wrong with the QJet SNIPER....but there are lots who don't prefer them based on experience or just don't like the performance. It's an individual decision.

Good luck with your build. I will say that my intake and setup look relatively close to stock to the average car enthusiast. But my car is also a resto-mod for a reason!

 

442, like yours, mine is a W30 clone/tribute, but convertible. Just doing some research before diving into this. I'm guestimating that we need to be about 500hp to get this tank to run 11.30 GOAL. It will be a daily driver style car, 325 Nitto's 4.33 gear OD trans. Will look at porting the OEM heads and modifying the stock intake. BUT if I can determine it's an original W30 intake, will try to sell it off and get a repo.

MIght just try a 1" open spacer with the car as is with the Sniper? Would "act" like a small plenum???? And might just be scrap, IDK. I see CANADIANOLDS is close by and seen a couple cars he's been involved in that seems to make the power to get to our goals.

Out of my engine I currently have 9 or 10, these OLDS seems to make the least power. 1.1Hp per inch with OEM stuff isn't usually that hard in my Chevy stuff. IN the OLDS????? I seen Mark made about 550Hp with the W30 intake BUT Eddy heads.

THANKS

 

Actually, if I change to aftermarket intake, would also switch to aluminum heads too.

 

Yeah I just decided to sell my original equipment and put the money into the parts that would get me where I wanted to go. Once I was able to make all the math work to get the RAM air stuff installed...I was super happy with the OEM look but the resto-mod performance. It was a win-win for me.

On the engine numbers....yes, Mark Jones (VORTECPRO) is a fantastic engine builder. His engine knowledge, machining and building skills, and attention to detail are second to none. He would be the only one I would ever trust now to build another engine for me. I'm very happy with our end result on my engine. His dyno test result numbers were conservative with the W-30 intake. I'm guessing my latest HP and torque numbers are even a bit higher with that Performer intake. I think this intake flows better with the Edelbrock aluminum heads as well. I know there is some weight savings there too. Here is Mark's build thread on my engine: 455 Oldsmobile Build - ClassicOldsmobile.com

On the spacer thought you mentioned...I was going to try that too but in my case there were just several things that I knew were not optimal with my config and I just couldn't address all of them till I switched the intake, and the entire fuel system out. If you are only trying to address one or two--possibly you can have better luck with tracking down where the problems or inefficiencies are.

 

I ended up ordering that ultra flow base! I wanted to also say I like your fly cutter and did you have to tram it in before you use it to cut the intake? I made my fly cutter back when I was a Toll & Die apprentice back in 1973 and it only has one tool bit. You also said in your post that you went to a Holley 4150 EFI but in your pictures all I saw was a Fitech carb!

 

Hi Bill. My friend did the machining for me and I did not watch him so I am not sure of the specifics. I can ask him though.

On the EFI unit...my stuff is all SNIPER. The FiTech you saw was from another person who posted in the thread. See the initial thread and pic #1 listed above. I have installed nearly the the same SNIPER 4150 EFI setup on my recent 442 resto mod (560+ HP) and the 67 Chevelle 640 HP 496 BBC that I also restored. Both run amazing!!!!

 

DUDE, the because your still under what these 4150 will support. I have spoken with Bob Reinhardt of Madcap racing engine about these systems and he feels these systems like we have con support up to about 700Hp. He knows as he ran Holley EFI in NHRA P/S as well as single Sniper 4500 that make north of 1400Hp.