4WDlifeform

Just would like to get a build thread going on here, and see what thoughts you guys have. I have a 72 Cutlass S with 350. She sat for 5 years, outside, uncovered. But, shes in good hands now, and here is what I have to deal with.

It is quite apparent the vehicle was wrecked in the past.. Finding some interesting body work in the trunk. Planning to get some sheet and pannel in the inner compartment, new insulation and carpet. I will need to repair the spare tire mount, as it is rusted through.

20121106_202202.jpg

Not entirely thrilled with the state of the frame in the rear, the cross beam just under the fuel fill seems weak. I can get some steel to double it up, would that seem worth it?

20121106_201321.jpg

Moved into the interior today, got seats out for reupholstering, removed carpet to be replaced. Going black interior. Had a hard time backing out the seat belt bolts. There were two in the rear that I have problems with. One I ran the impact to back out, and twisted out the entire welded nut and about 2" of metal all around it. The other I rounded the corners off, and can not get an open end on it. So it currently stays... Going to think a little more on it before drilling it out.

20121112_202956.jpg

Lastly, going to do some work on the dash. I'd like to add this set of temp, volt, and oil press gauges in place of the ash tray. Any thoughts? Anyone put these here before?

20121112_203259.jpg

...AND what is THIS!? There is a label under it that says "for 6 or 12 volt brake systems". There is a hard line that runs from this unit, to about where the brake reservoir is... But cant quite figure this thing out.

20121112_203031.jpg

Let me know what you guys think! Always open to any suggestions, or direction. Thanks!!

texxas

That's an old trailer brake control. Pushing the **** to the right would engage the trailer brakes when towing a trailer equipped with brakes.

4WDlifeform

WOW! No way!! That explains the "pig tail" wires I found in the trunk... That is crazy! I will have to ask the original owner on that.. Cant imagine a "muscle car" hauling a trailer of enough size requiring its own brakes!! Or is this common!?

Being that I will never haul anything with this vehicle, recommended to remove? Seems silly, I'd like to simplify this car as much as possible. Thanks Texxas for the info!!

MDchanic

Looks like a sort of "normal" amount of Northeast rust to me.

Those seat belt mounts will be an annoyance to replace, as obviously a lot of surrounding metal is shot and will need to be replaced.

Remember that those seat belt bots are hardened, and are no fun at all to drill.

Looks like a trailer brake to me. You planning on doing a lot of towing?

Good luck with it, and have fun!

- Eric

edit: looks like you beat me to it, Texxas!

MDchanic

I hate to be the first to tell you, but what you've got there is not a muscle car.

It's more like a 1972 Acura.

That car may have been purchased new by an old lady in her 70s, or by a math teacher in his forties, but I can guarantee you it was not purchased by some young racer.
That was a respectable upper-middle-class, no-family-in-back, Point-A-to-Point-B kind of car.

Sorry.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

It was a common thing back years ago. With a big displacement V8, full frame and rear wheel drive, it is not too much different than a pickup without a bed. These cars could pull quite a bit.

Rickman48

It was 'poked in the rear end', pretty hard!
How straight are the quarters?
Before replacing anything, if it was me, I'd ask a frame shop to measure the frame, to see if it's within specs.
I managed a shop in the 80's, and that frame wouldn't have left looking like that!
You can't hang anything straight on a crooked frame!

4WDlifeform

Haha I see your point. I really am still learning a lot about this erra of car. I think she will clean up nice and make for a suitable "Sunday cruiser" if not a muscle car! Deffinately dont see Acuras hauling brake trailers now a days!

MDchanic

Specifically, a Cutlass was rated for a Class 2 hitch towing up to 3,500 pounds with a 350 pound tongue weight, as outlined in the 1972 SPECS manual, seen below:



edit: With a HD suspension and good shocks, that Cutlass could pull this 22' Airstream Safari at 3,360 pounds / 377 pounds tongue weight (just a bit over spec, but not much) with no problem:



- Eric

4WDlifeform

Everything looks and seems straight, but not certain. I'll try to take a closer look. Just a lot of thick plastic filler all over the inside of the trunk.

Allan R

I'll skip the stuff the others already identified to you.
Yes, it does look like a pretty hack repair. I would be looking for the trunk drop downs, fillers and right side panels. Here are a few links for all the sheet metal you need. You might also end up replacing that inner housing if it's been really whacked. That means probably replacing the outer quarter skin too. http://www.tamrazsparts.com/index.ph...29_408_409_410
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto...html?3594=1066
http://www.ss396.com/mm5/merchant.mv...ode=TRUNKFLOOR


Believe it or not that cross brace was never all that strong to begin with. It basically just connects the two frame rails and doesn't provide any real structure. You can reinforce it if you want, but it's not going to do much for the car.

Folks have put them there but why? Have you thought about putting a period correct looking pod down below the radio? Have a look at this link. It's for one of our members Randy (W70442). He specializes in this type of customizing for 70-72 Cutlass. Scroll through the thread and see his options. I can tell you personally he does fantastic work and you won't be disappointed with his product https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-housings.html

4WDlifeform

Awesome! Thanks for the links.

As for the under dash mount, I should have mentioned I have an AC unit that mounts there so that is out. I am thinking of somehow keeping the swing down cover plate to hide away the gauges... I'll have to mock something up and see how it fits.

69442C

That left rear frame rail from the picture looks like 10 miles of bad road to me. That's not the way they looked originally. Like Rickman48 said, this needs to be measured by a competent shop before you do anything just to see if the frame is on spec or not. I tend to think it is not and as mentioned, you can't do a proper repair with a bent frame. Run your hand along the side of both frame rails up at the upper curved section above the differential. I think you'll likely find both sides balooned outward from it being bent and they should be smooth. That car took a hard hit to the back so you've got your work cut out for you. But before taking anything apart, you need to do a lot of detective work to determine what was and was not done. With a solid plan in place, it can be repaired correctly but it may need skills and equipment beyond what you have. If you can get the back up in the air and post more underneath photos I can see what I can do to advise you on what I see.
Brian

4WDlifeform

Thanks very much for the advice and help. Bummer to hear though, but I understand what needs to be done. I will probably get her up on stands again tomorrow, and see what I can find. I'll be sure to post back.

I do weld, and have equip to do so. Seems that pulling the fuel tank is becoming apparently necessary on this build. I was hoping to avoid all that! Good time now to do it right though..

Allan R

Pulling the fuel tank is relatively easy. I would strongly recommend getting some pics for Brian of the frame to see if it has buckled and go from there. Here's the best reference I can give you on a good frame (mine). Note it completely flat along the frame rails where Brian was referring to.


Also when I was reviewing the rear frame and comparing it with pics of mine, yours looks like it has a few 'wows' in it. Were the bumper braces flush on the inside of those frame rails?

4WDlifeform

Been having a busy week... Didnt get a chance to get it up on stands yet. Ill get some pics up early next week. Thanks Allan for the reference!

4WDlifeform

I finally got back into working on the car. Got it off the ground, pulled rear wheels, and got these images:

20121130_175322.jpg

20121130_175116.jpg

The frame rails only look buckled after the axle "hoop". But, it is certainly not flat on the face of the rails (a little "ballooned"). Let me know what you guys think. Everything seems solid though. Rust looks/feels to be only surface.

ent72olds

Shame, but that inner wheel house is not gonna be too pretty under all that "guk". Frame could be better.....

2blu442

I'm on the far side of the country. But I've got frames that I'd be willing to cut the back part off of. Then I've got a complete trunk floor and floorpan for parts. Let me know if any of this can help.


https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-portions.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...2-supreme.html



John

69442C

The last photo you posted raises some concerns with me. As was mentioned, the frame doesn't look great but it may not be a complete disaster either. Unfortunately, the only way to know what you have is t have it measured by a good body shop. Can you drive the car or is it too torn apart to take it anywhere? If you need the frame specs, I have a frame data sheet that I can copy and mail to you if you want to PM me your address. I can see on the driver's side that the first body mount behind the rear axle isn't supporting anything as there appears to be a gap between the rubber mount and the body and maybe even the frame. That could be due to the frame being bent or the floor of the car being bent. Things are not correct in this area and likely others.

What is making me a little nervous for you is that it appears to me the car may have significant rust that was covered with fiberglass and then an attempt was made to bury it with undercoating. I see evidence of this inside the the wheelhouses in these latest pictures and also on the rear of the passenger side wheelhouse from inside the trunk from your first posted pictures. The forward area inside the wheelhouse on the passenger side, up by the rocker panel, looks like a big patch is sitting there. Same thing on the rear of inside the driver's side wheelhouse and quite possible all along the forward section of that same driver's wheelhouse. Scrape away at the areas that look like a patch and see what that is. Or see if you can pull it off. It's possible someone did a poor repair and once this is all removed, you may find some serious issues. Try to see what you have now before you get much more involved in the car. You may need to shift budget money to make repairs you weren't counting on. I'd start with what looks to be those patches and if they aren't too bad, then see about getting the frame checked by a shop. If you find a lot of rust, you'll also have something to discuss with a shop if you aren't up to doing that work yourself.

Does the car look like the quarter panels were replaced? Look up inside the trunk area at the under side of the tops of the quarters. Do you see a seam where the panel(s) may have been replaced?

Brian

MDchanic

+1.

I can't see much regarding the frame, but it sure looks like the body's had a lot of rust covered over.

- Eric

Allan R

I see what Brian is suggesting and it doesn't look pretty. Just a question on the separation on the body puck Brian. I'm leaning to the frame being bent - if you look just under the body mount, it looks like there's downward bulging (buckle) in the frame rail itself. That would take a lot of force to do? I'm more inclined to think the body mount has pulled completely out of the sheet metal that should be holding it. I've had my quarter panels replaced on both sides, so I know what you're describing on the join weld. I looked at the first pic again and it appears that whoever shot the undercoating in the trunk didn't go very high up. So if there's a weld seam it should be fairly easy to see. Would also be easy to see if the panel had to be beaten back into shape to restore any buckled metal. There will be dolly and body hammer marks.

Now - a dumb question from me. I've NEVER seen shocks like that on any of these cars. Anyone know anything about them? To me it looks like part of the suspension from an off roader. Is it adjustable?

69442C

The body mount issue could be a bent frame or it could be the trunk floor in that area is still bent and wasn't straightened fully when the frame was pulled. It also looks like there could be rot in that brace that the mount bolts to that may have been covered up. It's going to take careful measuring of the frame as a starting point and if it's within spec then the issues will be more with the body being bent. Not good news either way. I'm still thinking there's a lot of hidden rust that needs to be uncovered if it's there so good decisions can be made on how to proceed.

Those springs on the shocks are an aftermarket thing and they were called "helper springs" or "load leveling" springs. Several places used to sell these including Sears.

Brian

2blu442

Well, as we discuss the photos I'm thinking that the rear half of this car may take too much to repair. Unless you've got an attachment to the car, like your Dad bought it and its a family heirloom, you might consider finding another car or at least body/chassis and using this for parts.

Sorry, I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm about the project. But there comes a point where you need to decide how much of the car would have to be replaced to make it nice again. Then how much time/money do you have to invest in it. If it were a 442 or W30 I'd go a lot further before abandoning a project. But for a Cutlass I believe you should think real hard about what you want to do.


Yeah, and I'm one to talk. I've got all the parts to restore the wreck in the picture below. But when I consider the time it would take, that's when I pause to ask myself if I really want to go there John.

69442C

Well John, you pulled the Band-Aid off all at once but I agree with your comments. I was working my up to this point and was hoping this would become obvious if what I believe are patches covering rot prove to be just that. He still needs to do the investigative work but it looks like things could go in the direction of requiring a little soul searching. If the frame isn't that bad and can be straightened, he could also consider doing a rear clip on the car which may be worth doing. Cut it across the floor and on a factory seam, through the rockers and then cut the A Posts. With that done and everything disconnected, the rear 2/3rds of the body and roof can be removed. Worst case, a shop should be able to do the main part of the clip and not charge a fortune to do it. And he would still need to locate a clip.

Brian

ent72olds

Brian Trick has a frame already blasted and primed for $550....I would get in touch with him, and I think he is in the same state as you! After that, aftermarket trunk floor and wheel houses, and you are on your way....best part, frame is ready for paint. At his price, it would be way more cost effective for you to go that route.....and you could get a few bucks back for scrapping your frame.....

69442C

I'll bet he is within a couple of hours of Erie....can't get much better than that. $550 for a frame blasted and primed is a steal.

4WDlifeform

Wow, a lot has been discussed! Doesn't sound good though... The fiberglass that has been mentioned is patched all over the rear of the car. I had a buddy stop up a few days back, and he pointed out a lot that was mentioned above. The quarter panels were repaired, not replaced. The inside facing panels are missing on 3 of the 4, and the flairs at the wheel opening are all molded of fiberglass/body filler. Certainly not optimal! But on the outside, really doesn't look bad. And it feels sturdy.

I will have to take a closer look at that body mount. Not sure what is going on there. I will inspect all the others while I am at it. It was mentioned if the car is drive-able. At this point, ehh... A milk crate for a seat I guess, and I could put around the block! I was hoping to leave the interior out until after paint. Which wont be for a couple months.. As mentioned, I cant haul either. Does it count for anything if I say that the car was inspected, passed, and drove on the road up until '09?? Do you think these frame/body issues would fail inspection? I am planning to get it back on the road again in the spring.

I would love to do a body-off restoration, but I physically can not do this in my garage. I can not even haul car parts of that size! I'd hate to scrap off the car, so I am going to make repairs to what is needed at this point. It was a gift from my fiance's family, and I'd like to repair it enough to get a year or two out of it. Plus, I could really use a second car. Not looking to drag race, or show it. Just a cool classic cruiser. The thing that bothers me most is the fact that this car is not as "cool" as I thought it would be. The more I get into this, the more I see it is just an old car. I still see it as a classic muscle car, rather than a family cruiser! If it were to drive past me, I'd turn my head to it, and appreciate it. So, that is my motivation! Moving forward! Plus, my father had one of these when he was my age. I'd love to drive this to his house when its done!

I have good ability to weld, and make repairs. Where I work, I can get just about anything steel wise that I could dream of! So, steel repair I would prefer over replacing. Here is what I was able to patch up on the interior:

20121205_203334.jpg
The silicone I used to seal covers the welds. I was able to get good tacks, about an inch or so spaced all the way around. Found SOME good steel left!

20121203_205748.jpg

And, I mentioned about the gauges. Here they are mocked up. Have to finalize it, but I am going to replace the speaker, so I'll leave this loose for now:
20121205_203417.jpg

Blah.. Sorry for the long post. A lot to catch up on. I'll try to keep more current with the discussion.

Octania

That rear seat floor ? area patch, with the hole in it- that's not a seat bolt mtg hole is it? If so you need a LOT more than a few tacks to properly replace that metal. Think of the 1000's of lbs of force a body would apply via seat belt to that hole in the event of a crash.

If you are intent to fix by patching, it can be done. I have done some even as crudely as pop riveting patch panels hammered and cut from galvanized sheet metal, when I was young. Sealed with roof sealer. DAMN lot of work, almost as bad as proper panel repair, but it can get that last year or two out of a vehicle.

I'd replace that Kennedy half with a Morgan silver dollar too, unless the year of the coin matches the year of the car or something.

Rob delta

It appears it is the belt mounting hole

MDchanic

I hate to say this, but it looks like you're peeing into the wind.

Lots of work in store for very little return.

Certainly if you want to do it, that's your right, and if you do it in the spirit of having fun, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't expect to be able to sell this car later and be able to get paid for even a fraction of what you've got into it.

My advice would be either to find a rust-free shell from the dry part of the world, or fix this as best you can, but if you do that, don't take it too seriously.

If you're enjoying it, that's all that matters.

- Eric

69442C

X2. I think you need to decide what you want this car to be. If the intent is to get it on the road and use it for a year or two, then I would not spend a lot of time welding in repair panels. Nor would I spend money or a lot of money on a paint job. And bottom line, I would not spend a lot of moeny on it at all as what Eric said is true, your return on money spent will be insignificant. Sometimes a gift, while well intentioned, can turn out to be a curse. Those who have no knowledge of the cost and time associated with repairing the type of damage (accident and rot) this car has will think the car would be a good project for someone. And if the intent is to just have fun, then go for it. But if there is a financial aspect to this, then I would tread very carefully as this is likely not be the car you want.

Being a former PA state inspection mechanic, many years ago mind you, the state at that time would require us to make certain the floors and exterior body panels were fairly sound and free of any rot holes. Exhaust gases getting into the car was the concern. So with this in mind, you will need to do some more patching. If down and dirty is the intent, get more fiberglass and do the repair that way. If visually the frame looks bent, then that can be grounds for it failing inspection. And if that body mount looks like it's not holding much of anything together, that could also be an issue. It all comes down to the person doing the inspection and just how critical an eye they have.

I would tend to think you would want to spend money to keep your future bride happy and I tend to think her parents would agree. Remember, a happy wife is a happy life. So don't spend a lot of money on this car and risk financial issues in your life. If you want to get a nice car for cruising, there are much better examples out there and in the end you will be much better off financially to buy a solid car than try to piece this one back together. It can be fixed but you better be prepared for a lot of work, money and time. So you had better REALLY love this car before going down that road.

Brian

4WDlifeform

Well isn't that the truth for about all vehicle hobbies!? I have come to accept that with my jeep projects in the past. Its all for fun! I would certainly be taking a different approach if I was looking to make a buck on it. The car was a gift. can't really see where I'd lose.. Good engine, good trans... I'm more than comfortable matching what they are in value into body/paint/interior work. No worries!

As far as the seat belt mount hole, given the base metal that was left, I could not get lengths of weld without blowing through the base metal. I am confident that the weld strength far exceeds the base metal strength! ...which probably isn't saying much. I went with a large plate size to get as much weld around it as I could.

The coin was in there when we got the car! It is a 72 half dollar, matches the year of the car. Its just sitting in there... At this point, might have to put it toward the budget!

I removed the trailer brake module. Worth selling? Or just pitch it?

Any advise for replacing the body mounts? Good supplier to shop from? Might as well replace them all around. It may lend opportunity to further inspect/repair some frame.

Eddie Hansen

4wd, I think it takes some time to adjust to realities of how much money you are willing to part with and not see come back. I see your good at welding, I just sold a set of body mounts in the swap shop, but you can get them from inline tube, and year one, get the bolt kit as well.

I see your good at welding, you can get repo quarters etc (I do have a set of left and right rocker panels from year one if you need them and I will make you a smoking deal on them.) and whole floor pans, trunk pans etc, but you could also fab something up from thicker sheetmetal yourself, will it be correct , no will it work yes....

as I was saying, if you want to do the car by all means go ahead, but paint is expensive, you could ( as was said) do a puff job on the body, weld in little patches etc then use fiberglass filler, a little bondo and have a maco job sprayed on it, if you do the body work, it will probably be an OK way to go. but this isn't the same as when I was young, you spray the lacquer in your driveway or garage, $40 - 60 bucks a quart.... 6 quarts to do a car , plus primer at maybe $45 a gallon, materials are a big deal now. Talk to the guys ( packrat etc) , maybe they will cut you floor sections, send it by greyhound or something.

Make sure the frame is right, cause all the welding your doing now is to fit the body on a possibly compromised base?

OK all that said, if you want to do a somewhat decent job, your talking probably 1000-1500 in just sheetmetal, plus someone to put it on.

partial quarters from goodmark are like 200 each

that is 400 right there add wheel houses another 250, trunk pan a 100
floor pan patches are like 55 a quarter ( rt front, left front, etc etc ) so another 250 and on and on..
whereas you buy another car and use this one for the parts, selling off anything good you find or strip? for an example this car I believe is owned by a member here it is a musclecar LOL http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/3450044574.html


or this one in jersey
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/3410570138.html


the one in jersey with a little haggling could probably be had for what you are going to spend in the frame and sheetmetal, and looks like some easy fixes... just saying

MDchanic

Just had to say it.

You'd be amazed at some of the ideas people come on here with, about the value of their cars.

- Eric

ent72olds

4Wd. I like the idea of the gauges hidden in the ashtray. Pretty cool! Don't bother doing the body mounts. Chances are, the bolts will snap, and the holes in the frame will be rotted. That will be another can of worms! Have to admire the determination, but, if the metal where you were welding the patch for the seatbelt bolt was blowing away, doesn't matter how good your welds are. Just don't have any kids strapped in back there for safety sake. Don't feel we are ragging on you, that's not what most of us here are about....just that we've been there and done that, and hate to see you go through it! Although, admittedly , some of us still never learn....

Mike77

I say most of us have been there done that! I know I have. Stick with having fun fixing and driving it a few years. It will never be a candidate for a true restoration. Fix what you can yourself and learn as you go. Don't spend a bunch of money , go low buck and keep it simple. Ya the frame is bent but if the panels exterior panels look OK don't go trying to "fix it" because then you will have a real can of worms to deal with. Fix it to be safe. Then for looks. no need for a $5K paint job. This would be a good car to learn paint and body work. Now go out and have some fun!

Mike

4WDlifeform

Well ultimately safety is the goal. I mIght see what I can do from the back side of that seat belt mount. If there is anything alarming, I am glad you guys are quick to spot these things. I have never done a car like this, so I am very thankful to your suggestions. I count on you guys as you seen and done alot more than I have! So don't give up on me! I will do a nice job!

Now as for paint, I got some connections! I have been told primers and base colors are cheap, Its the clear that breaks the bank. Have not priced out much at this point but it was one of the fIrst things I considered before starting this. I will do the body work myself and fully prep it for base color. Then my buddy will bring his paInt equip to my garage which will be well cleaned. Fingers crossed!

Allan R

If BC/CC is too expensive, just shoot it with enamel. That's how they came from the factory. Much less expensive and it's not going to be a show car anyway.

MDchanic

Lacquer, Allan - they came with lacquer from the factory.

It even says so on the Fisher Body plate (on earlier cars):



- Eric